Black Orc Warband alternate rules

Update:

Shiny pdf!

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Wonderful, I get half way through writing this, press preview and discover my connection has gone down and I lose the lot. Let's try again...

This could arguably be rather pointless, irrelevant, wishlisting or any/all of the three.

Anyway, in most of my warbands, armies and some of the development work I've done, I tend to like themed lists. It might not always be completely realistic (a combined arms approach is generally a better way to go), but like the potential to run 'pure' and/or themed forces and often do when gaming.

One question is whether what I am proposing here would be realistic? Are groups of Black Orcs of this size prevalent, probable or even possible in Mordheim or the Empire at large outside of a full army?

Also, should this be a revision of the current ruleset, or a stand alone force?
I decided to go with the former, structuring it so that it can do what the current rules do and allow for a pure Black Orc warband. At the same time it should hopefully allow for some flexibility and 'fix' some of the problems that the current rules have (and here's where the possible wishlisting raises it's egocentric head).

Here goes:

The is a modification of the Black Orc warband rules found in the Nemesis Crown supplement.

Special Rules:

Animosity: As is.

Let the goons do the work: As is.

Da Boss is Dead!: As is.

I Dun Fink So!: Non-Black Orc henchman groups must re-roll Lad's Got Talent results. Only if the second roll is also Lad's Got Talent, will they be promoted.

Black Orc:
This model is a Black Orc. It does not suffer from Animosity. It gains a 6+ armour save which may be improved with other armour items.

Recruitment:

Starting Gold: 500gc.
Max. number in warband: 12 models.

Heroes:
Black Orc Boss: 1
Black Orcs Big 'Uns: 0-3

Henchmen:
Black Orc Boys: Any number.
Orc Boys: Any number.
Troll: 0-1

Starting Experience: As is.
Max. characteristics: As is.

Skill Table: As is.

Equipment List:

Black Orc List:

Hand-to-hand combat weapons:
Dagger: 1st free/2gc
Club/Mace: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Choppa:: 15gc
Sword: 10gc
Spear: 10gc
Two-handed weapon: 15gc

Missile Weapons:
Throwing Axes (Throwing Knives): - 15

Armour:*
Light Armour: 10gc
Heavy Armour: 25gc
Shield: 5gc
Buckler: 5gc
Helmet: 10gc

Henchmen List:

Hand-to-hand combat weapons:
Dagger: 1st free/2gc
Club/Mace: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Choppa: 15gc
Sword: 10gc
Spear: 10gc
Two-handed weapon: 15gc

Missile weapons:
Bow: 10gc
Crossbow: 25gc

Armour:*
Light Armour: 10gc
Shield: 5gc
Helmet: 10gc

* Prices at warband creation only, subsequent purchases must be made in the normal manner as explained in the Trading section of the rulebook.

Special skils:

Waaagh!, 'Ere we go!, Da Cunnin' Plan, 'Ead Basher and 'Ard 'Ed: As is.

Armed to Da Teef:
This Black Orc has acquired an impressive array of weapons during his time. 'Da right fing for da right job.'
This may only be taken by a model with the Black Orc special rule.
The model may carry up to 4 hand-to-hand weapons instead of the usual 2.
In the first round of combat, the model may choose which weapon(s) to use and must continue to use them until no longer in combat.

Proven Warrior:
This Black Orc is now a grizzled, hardened and grim fighter. His armour is like a second skin, and knows his shield like the back of his scarred hand.
This may only be taken by a model with the Black Orc special rule.
This model does not suffer the movement penalty for wearing Heavy Armour and being equipped with a shield. In addition, he may use a shield to Parry in the same way as a buckler.

Heroes:

Black Orc Boss: As is.

Black Orcs Big 'Uns: As Black Orcs in original rules.

Henchmen

Black Orc Boys: - 40gc per model
M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld7
Black Orc.
May choose weapons and armour from the Black Orc list.

Orc Boyz: As is.

Troll: As is.

Items:

Choppa: 15gc, Rare 6.
Usually found in the form of a massive cleaver or axe, the Choppa is the quintessential orc weapon. Best employed in great swinging arcs as a fight is joined, it is easily capable of lopping off limbs with little effort.
Strength: As User
Special rules: In the first round of combat, a choppa strikes at +1 strength.

Edit: Fightin' Styles concepts:

Each hero may take what could be called a 'vow', fighting style or something similar, at either recruitment or promotion, that cannot be changed, cannot be the same as another hero's and doesn't cost anything.
For example:

Da Bigga Dey Iz, Da Harder I 'It 'Em!
This model may re-roll to hit against Trolls, Ogres, Rat Ogres and the Possessed and does not fear them, but it's so routine he gets no experience for taking one Out of Action (nor does anyone else if already wounded by this model).

Da Best Deffenz Iz Offenz!
Model gets +1 to hit in combat, as do any opponents to hit him.

Shootin'z Fer Panzeez!
This model hates any model that has used a missile weapon in the game so far, but cannot use any form of missile weapon.

Fightin', an Nuffin Else!
This model cannot explore or search for rare items, but may re-roll any roll to hit.

I like the way this is going, but I do have a few quibbles.

I'd change Armed to the Da Teef to read that the warrior can carry up to 4 close combat weapons rather than the usual 2 and can choose which weapon to fight with at the beginning of any combat. Once combat has begun he has to stick with the chosen weapon.

Choppa: I think choppas should get their warhammer rule with none of this (morningstar) foolishness. +1 strength in the first round of combat with no other restriction. Just because the morningstar has lousy rules is no reason to use them. (It seems instead to be a universal reason NOT to use them.)

First off, if you've never seen nemesis crown, there's actually a Black Orc band in there. I'm not saying you have to use it, but if you DON'T want to invent your own Black Orc band, there's an alternative

http://www.mordheim-nemesiscrown.de.vu/

Heroes: The Nemesis warband also went with 2 big uns and 2 young bloods, but to me that seems kind of weak, especially for black orcs. Young, weak orcs don't become heroes- they become meat. I recommend you start with 4 heroes - leader, shaman (who's not allowed to buy the black orc upgrade), and 2 boys. The player has the option of switching out the shaman for a 3rd boy, should he want*. To me, 4 strong heroes feels more appropriate than 3 strong and 2 weak.

*How to phrase it:
0-1 Shaman*
*Replaces one of the Big Uns

0-3 Big Uns*
The number of Big Uns plus Shamans cannot exceed 3.
S4 with Black Orc Upgrade

Henchmen:
Make a 0-5 henchmen group of the Black orcs, (which happen to be immune to animosity too).
New Rule:
"Don't fink so!" - If your warband contains Black Orc henchmen and a non Black-Orc boy is promoted to Hero, the promoted Orc and the Black Orc henchman with the highest Strength both roll 1D6 and add their strengths. If the Black Orc is higher or ties, the non-black orc is NOT promoted at this time. If the Non-black orc is higher, the black orc is put in his place, and the new hero is promoted as usual.

And a possible revision of Da Boss is Dead:
If the leader dies, the next hero to be promoted MUST be a black orc hero. If there are none in your warband, and you have a Black orc henchman, the Black Orc Henchman will immediately challenge the Non-Black hero with the highest Leadership (or experience if tied.) Both roll 1D6 and add their Strength- if the Black orc is higher, he is immediately promoted to a hero (as if he rolled That Lad's Got Talent) and the loser is downgraded to a henchman- he may continue to use any miscellaneous equipment he currently owns, but may not buy any more. If the result is a tie or the Non-Black orc wins, the Black Orc is beaten down and the hero becomes the leader.

- Altered Armed to Da Teef to along the lines of Von Kurst's suggestion. I prefer this version, though it seems a bit weak for a skill, should/could it be moved to a regular ability under Black Orc?

- Added Choppas as a unique item.

- Simplified the additions to Da Boss is Dead!

- Added 'I dun Fink So!' to Black Orc rules.

StyrofoamKing wrote:

nemesis crown

Sorry, I should have mentioned at the beginning, this rework is based off the NC list rather than the Orc and Goblin one from TC.

Added a notice to the effect at the start of the original post.

As to the lack of Shamans; like the lack of missile options for Black Orc members, cost alone does not always fully justify a change that improves something, plus it also gives the list a distinction from the regular Orcs and Goblins one - it will function in a different way and will have to rely on different strengths and act to limit it's different weaknesses. Otherwise it's just the O&G list with bells on, in which case you might as well consolidate the two sets of rules.

I didn't get a chance to post this, but I was also going to suggest a change with the the Armor:

"Black Orc Armor - 20 gc - Black Orcs Only, Common
The Black Orc armor provides a 5+ armor save, just like heavy armor. However, this may not be improved by the use of a shield. Also, the armor is so bulky that he suffers -1 to his Movement Characteristic. This penalty is ignored when the hero charges if he has the Strength Skill "Unstoppable Charge" or the Black Orc skill "Proven Warrior." If the warrior has BOTH skills, he may ignore the -1 Movement penalty at all times, not just when he charges.

Not SUPER simple, but gives a fun dynamic, I think. You could throw the shield back it, but I think it would raise the price 5-10 if you did.

I do like adding the Black Orc henchmen to the list. I am not a fan of the Nemesis Crown list because it seems like a cut and paste of Da Mob with Black Orcs as hero titles and no goblins.

One of our players is currently running the NC list and is going heavy on the shooting. And one of the Flame On group is running them as hero heavy, armored Norse Orcs. I'm interested in how both warbands do in their campaigns.

I was flicking through the main rules today and in particular the warband recruitment section and noticed some thing that seemed a little odd.

Skaven Assassin Adepts are the same price as a Mercenary Captain, despite having considerably better characteristics and the perfect killer rule (making most armour useless given it's Str 4).

Obviously Ld 7 for a leader is a serious hampering, but does this entirely warrant the lower cost. Then there's the 'Merc Bonus' (BS 4 Markmen, 100gc extra, etc.).

I'm not really questioning this, but in light of it, does the 90gc cost of a Black Orc Boss seem too much?

Compared with the Captain 'benchmark', he's the same movement, WS, BS and Ld, though lower Int. The big pluses are of course Str 4 and the ubiquitous T4. The latter is of course significant.

He has less ranged weapon options (no black powder) and can't take a halberd. The extra armour save and Oi Behave! might at a push account for the Merc Bonus.

(This also applies to some extent to Black Orcs vs Champions, which are nearly half the price. +25gc for +1 Str and T and a 6+ save (and the fewer weapon options)?)

The question then is, is the Boss overpriced and/or underpowered? If not then.. well there we are.

If so, then which of the two?

Would a reduction to around 75gc be reasonable?

Given that a Black Orc Boss would be a true monster to most, and could give many opponents a serious kicking, would something like +1 W or something be warranted?

Dribble Joy, you are going down the road of "i love this warband and i am unconsciously seeking ways to rationalize making them better", which leads mostly to overpowered warbands.
That said i don´t think that comparing black orcs to mercenaries (or other radically different warbands) is easy because there is no consistent point system behind the warbands. In every warband you will find models that are priced lower or higher than comparable models in other warbands, it is the warband as a whole that counts. It is much easier to compare your warband to an existing one with a similar focus, in your case probably da mob and possibly beastmen and dwarves.
To your comparison of stats i have to say that there are some very important stats (T, W, S) which have a much greater impact on gameplay than others. The other stats are much more dependant on the situation. There are exceptions like low leadership on the warbands leader (skaven) which are also very important, but as a general rule of thumb it is pretty good.
Lower access to weapons is not a big drawback as long as you have some usefull ones on your list. Look at melee weapons: For example, a halberd is not very usefull until you give it to a model with 2 or 3 attacks, until then two hand weapons are nearly always better. Great weapons hve their uses against high toughness opponents but their drawbacks are considerable etc. etc.
I think that the price of your boss is about right give or take 5 gc. If you want to give him two wounds than up his price and his starting XP to compensate for it. As a guess i would say 100 gc and and one less advance (at 24 XP or so?) is about right, or mix and match that approach with the rest of your warband (one starting hero less for example, or lower warband size, or a special rule that they always count as one warband size higher when selling wyrdstone etc. etc., you get the picture).

Which is why I'm asking, rather than simply changing it.

I don't want to give him two wounds (well, I would like to, but only if it were justifiable), it was an example, like Attacks or WS.
The stat line he currently has is fine, it's about right for a leader of his type, just that the costing seemed a bit out of place.

More of an idle query than asking a question to validate any changes I might want to implement.
Well, maybe half way. I do think he's overpriced, but frankly I was fine with the costing until I started looking at the leaders from all the other warbands. So I'm not that fussed.

First off, is a drop in LD from 8 to 7 a big deal? When it's a leader, it certainly is.

Chances of Rolling a 9+ on 2D6: 27%
Chances of Rolling an 8+ on 2D6: 41%.

Chancles of Passing a Rout Test Continuously after X number of turns:

Turn 1 | Turn 2 | Turn 3 | Turn 4
Ld 8 .72 | .37 | .26 | .19
Ld 7 .58 | .34 | .19 | .11

So, a player with Ld 8 has almost a 3/4 chance of passing a rout. A player with Ld7 has a little over a 1/2.

Also, the Skaven have NO elite units except for the Rat Ogre. They win in the hero department, but they suck when it comes to henchmen. (Not to say that a screen of slinging skaven aren't tough... but that's a whole 'nother thread.)

Black Orc- Well, here's how I'd price it:

Human Captain: 60
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8
Special: Leader

B. Orc Boss - X
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 4 4 1 3 1 8
Special: Leader, Oi Behave, Black Orc Skin (6+ save)

Comparing stats:
The BOrc is +1 S, +1T, -1 I. He has +1 GOOD ability, +1 okay ability.
Cost increase: +5 for S, Increase: +5 for T, +5 for Oi, +5-10 for Skin
Cost Decrease: -5 for I.
Total: +15-20gc gc, or 75-80gc gc. The "oi" benefit is not AMAZING, so if you wanted to make it a freebie, 75gc would not be horrific.

Now, let's do the same things with the NORMAL Orc boss:

Orc Boss - 80
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 4 4 1 3 1 8
Special: Leader

B. Orc Boss - X
M WS BS S T W I A Ld
4 4 4 4 4 1 3 1 8
Special: Leader, Oi Behave, Black Orc Skin (6+ save)

So, the vanilla Orc boss costs 80 gc, and has the same stats- but the B.Orc boss has two extra abilities, one of which (skin) is worth at least 5-10gc.

So, what you have to ask yourself is not, "How to justify the high cost of the black orc by increasing his stats", but rather, "how can I make him unique and fair based on what already exists in the game?"

So, 90gc is not a terrible price. Or, make him 80-85gc (just like the Orc boss), but include a drawback to the warband that makes it balance out. 4 heroes is a good way to start (although, the vanilla Mob warband already has that, so you'll need a second drawback.)

Maybe Don't Fink so is even MORE restrictive - any non black orcs that roll That lad's got talent automatically roll again. If they roll 10+ TWICE in a row, they're promoted. Otherwise, they just stay henchman. Unlike the current versions of "fink",. they apply whether or not you have any Black Orc henchman... its just an example of bias amongst the Black Orc bosses, to keep the normal boyz down.

Or maybe, if the Black Orc henchman don't suffer animosity, give them some other drawback. Maybe they MUST be equipped with Light armor, or must have at least 25gc worth of weapons and armor on them or they refuse to fight. So, they cost not much more than normal boyz, but you have to sell out more money for equipment (meaning that each death costs you an extra 25gc to rebuy).

Points to consider indeed.

Unrelated to the previous posts, and which I was intending to post before my inopportune foray into leader querying (though whether people believe that I'm not sure), I thought I'd 'test' what I had done so far with some theoretical lists to look at things as a whole and how they compare to the current rules and the game at large.

Version 1: Hero bias.

Boss
Black Orc 'Eavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Helmet. - 165

Black Orc
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 100

Black Orc
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 100

Young 'Un
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Black Orc. - 75

Young 'Un
Light Armour, Sword, Shield, Black Orc. - 60

(Compare that to this, my current list:

Boss - Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Helmet. - 165
Black Orc - Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 125
Black Orc - Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 125
Young 'Un - Bow, Shield, Black Orc Blood. - 50
Young 'Un - Bow. - 35)

Version 2: Hero/Henchmen Mix.

Boss
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Helmet - 140

Black Orc
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 100

Black Orc
Heavy Armour, Axe, Shield. - 95

Orc Boys x 3
Light Armour, Axe, Shield, Black Orc. 55 x 3 = 165

Version 3: Henchmen Heavy.

Boss
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Helmet. - 140

Orc Boys x 8
Shield, Axe, Black Orc. - 45 x 8 = 360

Holes? Strengths? Weaknesses? Any other combinations that drag this into the regions of Not Good?

Outside of One-shot games, you always want to start with Max heroes. Heroes = exploration dice, and explor. dice = money. This is why any band with 6 starting heroes have a better "out of the gate" power than warbands with 5, and even greater over players with 4. This is why most weaker races (skaven, goblins, halfling) start with 6 heroes, while most medium races start with 5, and most strong start with 4 (ex. the Dwarves, Orcs)

For that reason, I still suggest you drop the too Black Orc Young Uns, and just make it 0-3 Black Orc Big Uns. They'd each be stronger than a Champion, but with only 4 of them there, they'd get less money per game until you rolled a few "That Lad's Got Talent" dice.

I talk about this a little more in an earlier thread:
https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t5501-how-to-write-a-warband

Oh absolutely. I was just wondering if there was problems, in one off games or campaigns, that might arise with the list so far.

I think I'll concur with the 0-3 Black Orcs, dropping the Young 'Uns. From a fluff perspective I could see them not wanting inexperienced upstarts around, and the rank and file Black Orc boys wouldn't want to be ordered around by them, especially if they aren't black orcs.

Altered Don't Fink So! too.

Would anything else need to be altered in light of dropping to 4 heroes?

Don't think so... although, you currently don't have any Black Orc Henchman, meaning that no one can advance. I recommend you make them their own separate group, rather than an "upgrade". Too confusing.

Also, do you want to have Gobbos available? If you skip the squigs (and keep the warband at 12 models), I don't think they would RUIN it. Might add a cheap contrast to the expensive Black Orcs.

Black Orc Armor: Upon consideration, they don't really NEED this. They have +1 armor already. Giving them +3 on top of it turns them into Space Marines (and that's without a shield). Just give the Black Orcs (and BOrcs only) access to Heavy armor, something that the vanilla orcs can't buy.

Choppa- 15gc. It's pretty much a Morning Star, without the shield restriction. (Meaning it's BETTER than 15gc value, but no need to make it cost more than 15)

Other than that, it's about done! Copy paste the original rules with the above tweaks, and you're solid! (Make sure you add "Based on the Nemesis Crown Warband"... only polite.)

I agree with StyrofoamKing, your warband should have black orc henchmen. This just fits their style and is less confusing than an upgrade - you could even drop the normal orcs to make it more exclusive. If you do this maybe you should give the warband another hero type to compensate. Styro has already mentioned goblins, what about (unridden) boars that function a lot like warhounds? I think they would fit the theme and more variety in henchmen ist always welcome.

Cut Black Orc 'Eavy armour. A 2+ save even if you only have a couple of models is a bit rude.

Upped Choppa to 15gc.

Added Black Orc Boys as a henchmen type, removed upgrade from Orc Boys, cut unnecessary rules from Black Orc.

As for gobbos and beasties of some kind. I'm undecided; it's largely a fluff consideration, as to whether they would want them around 'getting in the way' of the fighting or if they might consider using them as cannon fodder cowardly. Plus it would provide a distinction/restriction from the Da Mob.

Semi-final version:


The is a modification of the Black Orc warband rules found in the Nemesis Crown supplement.

Special Rules:

Animosity: As is.

Let the goons do the work: As is.

Da Boss is Dead!: As is.

I Dun Fink So!: Non-Black Orc henchman groups must re-roll Lad's Got Talent results. Only if the second roll is also Lad's Got Talent, will they be promoted.

Black Orc:
This model is a Black Orc. It does not suffer from Animosity. It gains a 6+ armour save which may be improved with other armour items.

Recruitment:

Starting Gold: 500gc.
Max. number in warband: 12 models.

Heroes:
Black Orc Boss: 1
Black Orcs Big 'Uns: 0-3

Henchmen:
Black Orc Boys: Any number.
Orc Boys: Any number.
Troll: 0-1

Starting Experience: As is.
Max. characteristics: As is.

Skill Table: As is.

Equipment List:

Black Orc List:

Hand-to-hand combat weapons:
Dagger: 1st free/2gc
Club/Mace: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Choppa:: 15gc
Sword: 10gc
Spear: 10gc
Two-handed weapon: 15gc

Missile Weapons:
Throwing Axes (Throwing Knives): - 15

Armour:*
Light Armour: 10gc
Heavy Armour: 25gc
Shield: 5gc
Buckler: 5gc
Helmet: 10gc

Henchmen List:

Hand-to-hand combat weapons:
Dagger: 1st free/2gc
Club/Mace: 3gc
Axe: 5gc
Choppa: 15gc
Sword: 10gc
Spear: 10gc
Two-handed weapon: 15gc

Missile weapons:
Bow: 10gc
Crossbow: 25gc

Armour:*
Light Armour: 10gc
Shield: 5gc
Helmet: 10gc

* Prices at warband creation only, subsequent purchases must be made in the normal manner as explained in the Trading section of the rulebook.

Special skils:

Waaagh!, 'Ere we go!, Da Cunnin' Plan, 'Ead Basher and 'Ard 'Ed: As is.

Armed to Da Teef:
This Black Orc has acquired an impressive array of weapons during his time. 'Da right fing for da right job.'
This may only be taken by a model with the Black Orc special rule.
The model may carry up to 4 hand-to-hand weapons instead of the usual 2.
In the first round of combat, the model may choose which weapon(s) to use and must continue to use them until no longer in combat.

Proven Warrior:
This Black Orc is now a grizzled, hardened and grim fighter. His armour is like a second skin, and knows his shield like the back of his scarred hand.
This may only be taken by a model with the Black Orc special rule.
This model does not suffer the movement penalty for wearing Heavy Armour and being equipped with a shield. In addition, he may use a shield to Parry in the same way as a buckler.

Heroes:

Black Orc Boss: As is.

Black Orcs Big 'Uns: As Black Orcs in original rules.

Henchmen

Black Orc Boys: - 40gc per model
M4 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld7
Black Orc.
May choose weapons and armour from the Black Orc list.

Orc Boyz: As is.

Troll: As is.

Items:

Choppa: 15gc, Rare 6.
Usually found in the form of a massive cleaver or axe, the Choppa is the quintessential orc weapon. Best employed in great swinging arcs as a fight is joined, it is easily capable of lopping off limbs with little effort.
Strength: As User
Special rules: In the first round of combat, a choppa strikes at +1 strength.

Still unsure about:
Da Boss is Dead! - Should this be simplified further? Perhaps simply if there are no Black Orc Heroes any Black Orc Boys leave and the warband switches to Da Mob rules?

Gobbos/Animals - Personal preference/view of the fluff says no, but not sure.

Should some form of missile weapons be added to the Black Orc list?

Too strong? Too weak? Will it struggle too hard in the course of a campaign? If so, is it strong enough to begin with to counter this?

Sample warband:

Boss
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield, Helmet - 140

Black Orc
Heavy Armour, Sword, Shield. - 100

Black Orc
Light Armour, Axe, Shield. - 80

Black Orc
Light Armour, Axe, Shield. - 80

Black Orc Boys x 2
Light Armour, Axe. - 50 x 2 = 100

Da Boss is Dead: Well, if you have Don' Fink So, I guess you don't really NEED to have Da Boss... the chance of an orc rolling 10+ twice and getting Ld and THEN the loss dying are kinda slim. They're already put down enough.

Gobbos & Animals: Cool. Leave them out, then.

Missiles: I think the Green Orc Boyz should at least have Bows. As for the Black Orcs, why not give them Throwing Axes (treat as Throwing Knives.) Without access to shooting skills, I doubt it'll be broken.

Black Orc Boys: Restrict to 0-5. That way, they HAVE to buy some squabbling Green Orcs if they're to reach 12. Currently, I see them like Orc Boys with WS4, +1 Armor Save, and No Animosity: worth 40gc at least, if you ask me.

Another possible idea hit me for the Big Un's (not required, but might make the 0-3 generic heroes play a little differently)
Mark 'Em! : Black Orcs mark the body of their foes, so they can accurately tally of their kills (and claim dibs on the meat!) No two Big Uns may be armed with identical Hand to Hand weapons in any given game. Ex. You may have 1 Big Un with a 2 clubs, a second with a a club and a Choppa, and a 3rd with a club and shield, but you may only have 1 big un using 2 clubs in any given game. If he has several weapons to choose from, once a weapon combination has been used in combat, no other black orc big un would dare use that combination for the remainder of that game, for fear that his kills would be be confused with the others.

So, while the 3 of them have no special rules, they each have their own Signature weapons.

EDIT

Or, an example of catching flies with Honey instead of vinegar:

Signature Weapon: Orc Big Un's become especially good with one weapon, which they use to mark their prey. When you first hire a Big Un, pick one weapon that is their Signature. They will always use that weapon in combat, unless they are disarmed for any reason. The first time in any game that a Big Un charges, he may reroll any rolls to hit with the Signature weapon, accepting the second result. This only applies to the Main weapon, not any Additional hand weapons (ex. A Big with 2 axes and an Axe speciality may only reroll Axe attacks with the main hand, not the additional hand Axe attack.) This only lasts for the first time the Big Un charges in any Game- after that first charge, the weapon fights as normal until next game. Also, each Big Un strives to make a name for himself- no two big uns may have the same signature weapon.

Maybe a Special Skill lets a big un use the signature weapon bonus on additional hand weapons and any time he charges (effectively making it Expert Swordsman for whatever weapon they have picked.) If you go with this, you might want to add Flail and Halberd on to the list, so they have the option of having ALL two-handed specialties, should they desire.

- Added Throwing Axes as the Black Orc Missile weapon. Should these be as Throwing Knives, or maybe add Cutting Edge to represent the extra weight? (20gc from 15gc)

- Increased Black Orc Boys to 40gc. Pondering the 0-5 limit, but I feel we are introducing a lot of restrictions without recompense (unless the list is too strong).

well, the 0-5 isn't REQUIRED.

Actually, the list is kinda looking a lot like the Dwarf treasure hunters list right now.

Max Size

1 Strong leader - 85-90gc
0-3 support heroes, around 50-60gc each
0+ 40gc tough units
0+ 25gc less reliable/powerful units

Looks pretty fun to me.

I was actually reading the Dwarf rules yesterday (and nearly fell off my chair when I read 'Hard to Kill') and can see what you mean.

Are they too similar? Will they play differently in the end? Obviously Dwarves rely more on ranged and have to deal with the the problems arising from M3 so is any similarity superficial (I have little experience with Dwarves)?

Nah, I don't think so.

Compared to Dwarves, the Black Orcs are / have:
Very little ranged weapons
Faster (M4)
Have weak henchman that are unpredictable (animosity) and pushed down
Lower Ld (although, not super low)
Have a higher armor save, but are taken out on an injury of 5-6

I bet the two would play off of each other really well. The only thing that might give the Dwarves the slighest edge is the "Hatred" of Greenskins... of course, the Orcs have a Troll, while the Dwarves can only hope their Trollslayer has earned "Monster Slayer" by then.

OK, so we're largely done, but (and I know I've asked this several times along the way) are there any outstanding issues with the list as it is?

Also, comparing with the original list (if it still can be compared due to the changes) is it about right? Is the original list viewed as strong, weak or balanced?

- Fewer heroes, but no Young 'Uns - is this made up for enough?
- Cheaper armour at creation - again a starting perk, how will it impact the long term performance, especially given the above.
- 'Elite' henchmen option - flexibility to create a pure Black Orc list.
- Token missile availability for heroes and Black Orc henchmen - I'm tempted to scrap it entirely.

If we're good, what next? Is there a certain format, location and method to posting final versions?
I could make a PDF if needed.

I've been mulling over the changes so far, and while the core of it is looking good, I'm wondering about the actual feel/flavour of the warband as a whole.

In some ways it feels like they're just 'elite' orcs. Da Mob has gobbos, rampant animosity, squigs, etc. - 'Orciness'.
The whole sense that Black Orcs treat fighting as Serious Business seems a little lacking.

Of course I don't want to make them better/worse as a result (unless we re-write the whole lot to make it a core element to their design) as the pricing is about right.

Any ideas?

(necessary?)

Edit:

One thought, don't know how in theme it would be or if it's backed up by the fluff.

Each hero may take what could be called a 'vow', fighting style or something similar, at either recruitment or promotion, that cannot be changed, cannot be the same as another hero's and doesn't cost anything.
For example:

Da Bigga Dey Iz, Da Harder I 'It 'Em!
This model may re-roll to hit against Trolls, Ogres, Rat Ogres and the Possessed and does not fear them, but it's so routine he gets no experience for taking one Out of Action (nor does anyone else if already wounded by this model).

Da Best Deffenz Iz Offenz!
Model gets +1 to hit in combat, as do any opponents to hit him.

Shootin'z Fer Panzeez!
This model hates any model that has used a missile weapon in the game so far, but cannot use any form of missile weapon.

Fightin', an Nuffin Else!
This model cannot explore or search for rare items, but may re-roll any roll to hit.