Orc Boss Build

Lately my Orc Boss rolled his second "new skill" and I'm wondering what to give him (i.e. how to develop him in the long term, respectively).

His profile goes like this:

M4, WS4, S4, T4, W1, I3, A2, Ld8.

skills / injuries: mighty blow, hates beastmen (all warbands), stupidity, causes fear (scars), old battle wound. (rolled 6 for multiple injuries last game, ouch!)

equipment: Light armour, shield, helmet, Sword, Halberd, rabbit foot.

Basically I try to make him defensive to stay long enough to keep my troll effective. But he should be able to bash some heads to advance at an acceptable rate (which is so far rather difficult to achieve).

As he has A2 i'm tempted to give him strongman but resilient will also do him much good on the defensive side...

roughly i intend that he should finally have: da cunnin plan, mighty blow, strongman, strike to injure, hard head, resilient, step aside, sprint, maybe dodge also.

The enemies i'm facing are beastmen, dark elves and possibly reiklanders (yet quite unsure if he's really joining us).

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The skill list is far too long, I know. so that's one reason why I'm adressing you guys. I also wonder if he could become a good knife fighter instead... too many possibilies and so few advances

So which skills would you try to give him and/or maybe you have an own orc boss build you would like to share?

I know this post is rather situational, so feel free to ignore it. (although I'm glad if you don't, hehe).

thanks a lot in advance...

Pit Fighter is my default skill of choice for an Orc Big'Un or Boss. It's ridiculously good if you group uses even half the amount of terrain that you should with Mordheim!

Sprint and Dodge are very handy for the Boss so one of them is normally my second choice. Mighty Blow and Step Aside are my second choices for Big'Unz.

Strongman or Might Blow, the higher strength will make him a killing machine. If anyone gets into melee with him they will regret it.

When I played Orcs my build was get him Strongman as quickly as possible then he becomes a 1 man killing machine. Then from there I would give him Step-Aside, it is a 5+ save in melee. It is really good.

With our group we tend to take Step Aside and Resilient first as a matter of course for any leader. However in the last campaign I was facing Stirwood Outlaws and Elven Sea Patrol (Sartosa High Elves) so I took Dodge first, then Step Aside and Resilient. He ended the campaign with Strike to Injure and Pit Fighter.

Since I run them as pirates I also like to take Weapons Master early to gain access to pistols and a blunderbuss. In the last campaign I used my Lads got Talent boyz for that purpose instead.

I have a Foundry Mercenary Ogre model I use as Yo'and da Nife, a wannabe knife fighter from the Black Mountains who dresses in 'the Estalian style' and is festooned with knives. He led the band until the pirate kaptain showed up.

Personally, the *first* skill I give my orc leader is Da Cunning Plan, followed Strongman (he is modeled with a DHW).

The next skill I give him is actually Weapons Expert because he also comes modeled with a pistol and I like the idea of having one.

My orcs are in a Relics of the Crusade campaign and they are following the Path of The Merchant so eventually my leader will end up armed with a dueling pistol and a double-barreled sniper rifle.

Another possibility to consider is Lightning Reflexes and getting yourself an ithilmar dagger for your off-hand. 2 S4 attacks striking first are not to be sneezed at and will often be quite startling to someone expecting a low I model. That being said, this tactic is a bit more viable in my circle because we have decided that one can swap out your free dagger for any other dagger so we see a fair few free daggers getting swapped out for ithilmar, gromril, darksteel, and so forth.

Love those Foundry Renaissance ogres and orcs.

With two attacks, I think I would be inclined to take strongman next and use a great weapon. He will regularly wound even the beastmen.

On the other hand, against Elves (and Reikländer also) S7 is overkill mostly and you could argue that, since he hates them, the boss should do well against beastmen with S6 also. It is really hard to develop your boss when the other warbands are as different as beastmen and elves (tough and cc vs. fast and shooty).
I'd probably go with resilient. Works even when your boss suddenly decides to be stupid in cc.

thank you very much for your input so far

until recently I was very much convinced that I must make the boss great at defenses in order to last as long as possible to support the troll.

But then I realized that he won't progress very quickly if he doesn't kill much stuff. so I gave him mighty blow last time. Also I find a good offense can be a good defense too...

I realised that strongman is not really yet needed, as almost no enemy model has T4-resilient or T5 yet.

yesterday I did some number crunching and I realized that the highest increase of damage output (i.e amount of average wounds) I would receive by taking a halberd or morning star in combination with either pit fighter or combat master.

But pit fighter might lead to a insane amount of problems when to consider a model within a building, does the enemy model have to be in a building too, is it within if only part of the base is, etc.etc...

defensive-wise I made some calculations too and compared the amount of wounds saved by either step aside or resilient. The result was that resilient is in most cases inferior (in that respect). The only occasion where resilient prevents more wounds is against attacks of T-2 (S3 in my case). I can show you my calculations if you are interested, but it's all in german so far

1)I realized that no one mentioned hard head and strike to injure. Is this because you find them less important or because you would them take later?

2) how important do you find the cunning plan? to choose it is like... be brave it serves the warband overall... argh.. no i want to increase damage or defenses... ok, ok, I'll take it.. lol

no seriously: do you think it's worth it at this moment (early in the campaign and at Ld8)?

3) to what extent would you increase the defenses (in order to last longer for the troll)? basically would you increase defenses or offensive power first?

4) btw: if the boss fails his stupidity roll, does that mean the troll is automatically stupid, too?

sorry, a lot of questions

I consider Da Cunning Plan *very* important, *especially* at the start of the campaign because that is when your leadership is the lowest, and so is your opponents so it makes the biggest difference.

If you are rolling and your opponent is rolling, then being able to reroll increases your chance of sticking around by quite a bit.

I find that the point of having Strength higher than 5 is not to do more damage, but more that high strength CANNOT be parried. How important this is to you will depend on how often your opponents take weapons that can parry [cough]dwarf blade masters[/cough]. At S6, S3 cannot parry your blows. At S8, S4 cannot parry your blows. To this end I will typically have S4, DHW, Strongman and Mighty Blow, and also Acrobat (oh, and a rope and hook for getting up there in the first place). Dark Venom is also your friend here.

In terms of getting xp for one's Boss, I find the two skills that help the most with that are Nimble and Quickshot; crossbow bolts to the face are a good way of getting your boss xp without risking him in close combat. Your choice on which skill to get first.

On a tangent, but I also like to get Weapons Expert for my Big'uns. A blunderbuss or crossbow pistol can be a very nasty surprise for those expecting typical orcs.

The troll tests independently of the boss, so it will be quite possible for one to fail and the other not.

Dahag wrote:

thank you very much for your input so far

1)I realized that no one mentioned hard head and strike to injure. Is this because you find them less important or because you would them take later?

I mentioned strike to injure! I take it before Pit Fighter because I always roll 4s. After I take it I roll 3s.

Dahag wrote:

2) how important do you find the cunning plan? to choose it is like... be brave it serves the warband overall... argh.. no i want to increase damage or defenses... ok, ok, I'll take it.. lol

no seriously: do you think it's worth it at this moment (early in the campaign and at Ld8)?

Early would be better if its important to you to take it. I find that I would rather run earlier in a campaign when I am trying to get LGT rolls and increase the number of orcs in the band.
Also since there is so much equipment that allows re-rolls, I would rather spend skill slots on other things.

Dahag wrote:

3) to what extent would you increase the defenses (in order to last longer for the troll)? basically would you increase defenses or offensive power first?

I found just being around the troll a good source of kills since multiple models tend to attack the troll and he can't dispatch the Knocked Down and Stunned ones if he is otherwise engaged. So I go for defensive first, then offensive as the enemy gets better at killing the troll.

Dahag wrote:

4) btw: if the boss fails his stupidity roll, does that mean the troll is automatically stupid, too?

No +1, although it may seem that way most days. They test separately.

Sorry that you are having a run of worst case injuries with the Boss/Troll combo. I have run Da Mob for 5 campaigns and never encountered either long absences for the Boss or Stupidity for the Boss. I have apparently been lucky.

And another shout for the Weapons Expert. Love that blunderbuss for breaking up those clumps of models preparing to rush the troll.

If all of his opponents T4, I'd take Mighty Blow next. +1 Strength is always nice, and it frees up your second hand in a way that strongman doesn't- meaning either +1 attack, or a +1/+2 AS.

Strike to Injure is the perfect foil against Dwarves and Undead... for example, those zombies are easy to knock down, but they're impossible to KEEP down!

Von Kurst wrote:

No +1, although it may seem that way most days. They test separately.

Sorry that you are having a run of worst case injuries with the Boss/Troll combo. I have run Da Mob for 5 campaigns and never encountered either long absences for the Boss or Stupidity for the Boss. I have apparently been lucky.

speaking of which: I actually would have the possibility to avoid stupidity. We have the house rule that every warband has 3 fate points for the entire campaign. a fate point allows to ignore (or reroll) one roll (e.g. on the serious injury table).

I'm wondering if I should use a fate point to ignore that (6) multiple injury roll which brought my boss "old battle wound", "misses 3 games", "stupidity" but also "horrible scars". my problem is that I'm already at "only 2" because I had to prevent the premature death of my boss . if i invest it i would be down at 1 after only 6 games. my adversaries are still at 3.

but anyway, if I may ask: would you invest that fate point? 3 games with a useless troll / my boss misses experience / rather early rout etc.., stupidity, old battle wound... mhh...

btw1. what do you mean by "no +1"? What I meant was if a stupid model can still grant its leadership to others. if it can't, stupidity for a boss is --well -- rather stupid

btw. sorry for the strike to injure. i must have overread that.

StyrofoamKing wrote:

If all of his opponents T4, I'd take Mighty Blow next. +1 Strength is always nice, and it frees up your second hand in a way that strongman doesn't- meaning either +1 attack, or a +1/+2 AS.

Strike to Injure is the perfect foil against Dwarves and Undead... for example, those zombies are easy to knock down, but they're impossible to KEEP down!

fortunately I got mighty blow already. thanks for reassuring i guess especially against beastmen hitting at S5 by default instead of S4 makes a lot of difference.

Dahag wrote:

...speaking of which: I actually would have the possibility to avoid stupidity. We have the house rule that every warband has 3 fate points for the entire campaign. a fate point allows to ignore (or reroll) one roll (e.g. on the serious injury table).

I'm wondering if I should use a fate point to ignore that (6) multiple injury roll which brought my boss "old battle wound", "misses 3 games", "stupidity" but also "horrible scars". my problem is that I'm already at "only 2" because I had to prevent the premature death of my boss . if i invest it i would be down at 1 after only 6 games. my adversaries are still at 3.

but anyway, if I may ask: would you invest that fate point? 3 games with a useless troll / my boss misses experience / rather early rout etc.., stupidity, old battle wound... mhh...

btw1. what do you mean by "no +1"? What I meant was if a stupid model can still grant its leadership to others. if it can't, stupidity for a boss is --well -- rather stupid

btw. sorry for the strike to injure. i must have overread that.

No worries on the strike to injure.
I'd use the fate point, you have a ton of bad things to deal with there. Even though your opponents still have 3, I'd take care of Mr. Boss now and worry about the worse things waiting later.

My 'no +1' meant that the troll was not automatically stupid. It would get to test. In my group we would not allow a model that failed a stupidity test to 'lead' a stupid model afterwards, so it would be stupid a lot of the time on its own. I don't think there is an official ruling for that, its just what makes sense to us.

We would have a debate on the order of the tests though. Some would argue that the troll could test first, then the boss. Others would argue that the Boss test and then the troll. We go round on things like that each time it comes up.

Von Kurst wrote:

No worries on the strike to injure.
I'd use the fate point, you have a ton of bad things to deal with there. Even though your opponents still have 3, I'd take care of Mr. Boss now and worry about the worse things waiting later.

My 'no +1' meant that the troll was not automatically stupid. It would get to test. In my group we would not allow a model that failed a stupidity test to 'lead' a stupid model afterwards, so it would be stupid a lot of the time on its own. I don't think there is an official ruling for that, its just what makes sense to us.

We would have a debate on the order of the tests though. Some would argue that the troll could test first, then the boss. Others would argue that the Boss test and then the troll. We go round on things like that each time it comes up.

I guess so too. At first I thought that stupidity wouldn't be much of a topic as he has Ld8. For a normal model it would not be such a problem but as he has to lead the troll, stupidity is a really bad thing. And old battle wound even makes it worse... (however, we allow to use a rabbit foot to reroll old battle wound.)

Spontaneously I'd also say that a stupid leader cannot confer his leadership if he had failed a stupidity test that round. So this would affect also fear tests and all alone tests within 6" of the leader...

but back to the build question per se:

pit fighter and combat master do increase the damage output immensely, especially on a model with hate. So I'll take on of these next and go for a defensive one some other time.
but whereas the functionality of combat master is quite straightforward, pit fighter is much more difficult to handle.

how does it work exactly? I mean what is considered to be "within a ruin"? does the complete / partial base of the model be inside? what about the attacked enmies? etc...

The easiest answer to the questions about Pit Fighter can be found within your group. Talk it out and write it down. We're great at the talk it out part, not so much the writing down. So we keep talking.

For Pit Fighter we give the warrior the bonus if his base is mostly within a ruin, building or on a ship. The model he is fighting can be anywhere inside or outside as long as they are in combat.

[quote="Dahag"]

Von Kurst wrote:

Spontaneously I'd also say that a stupid leader cannot confer his leadership if he had failed a stupidity test that round. So this would affect also fear tests and all alone tests within 6" of the leader...

With most warbands, I'd agree, but with Orcs, it seems to fit.

Two goblins, gazing up at their infamous leader.

Stabba: Waz da boss doin'?

Gadja: 'E's finkin' 'ard, 'e is!

Stabba: Looks like 'e's droolin'!

Gadja: Dat's 'ow ya KNOW 'e's finkin'!

Stabba: Oh. Roight.

I mull over two variants how to develop my orc boss when it comes to shooting.

1) xbp / crossbow. needed skills: weapon expert, quickshot, (trickshooter), nimble. (eagle eyes is completely replaced by nimble in this case, so can be neglected).

2) xbp, knife fighter. needed skills: weapon expert, knife fighter, eagle eyes, (trickshooter).

So both variants take me the same amount of shooting skills 3 (4 if I take trickshooter). so in this aspect they are equal.

The problem I see with 1) is that it is 2 shots instead of 3, if I move its even only 1 shot compared to 3.

2)'s downside is the low range of the throwing knifes.

My boss is clearly designed to go into cc (hate, mighty blow, A2, troll) so variant 2 seems much more intuitive, but range 12"...

what would you suggest? do you think the shooting range of 12" to be (too) impedimenting for otherwise cc-oriented model? (in fact the range is rather 16" as movement doesn't affect shooting with throwing knives).

btw. the xbp i field because of it's additional cc-attack (only).

If your leader is CC oriented and has S4+, I'd say knife fighter hands down. The range with eagle eye is "only" 16" as you mentioned, but there's no penalty for long range.

For comparison's sake:

build 1 example turn: walk 4", shoot something at S4 & -2 to hit (move & long range) up to 24" away
walk 4" (now you are 8" behind your running CC orcs), shoot something at S4 & -1 to hit up to 12" away (or -2 to hit 24" away)
You can substitute quickshot for nimble, and run the first turn, then quickshot the second turn to get similar results (2 shots fired, still 8" behind running orcs).

build 2 example turn: run 8" (keeping up with other CC orcs)
walk 4", shoot something 3 times at S4 with no to-hit penalties 12" away

These are obviously over-simplified scenarios, but even if it takes an additional turn to get to combat, you're still getting far less attacks with the crossbow, with great to-hit penalties, while falling behind the rest of the melee force even more.

However, build 1 gets off the ground sooner, as you only need 1 skill (nimble or quickshot) plus an xbow to be decently effective. Build 2 needs 3 skills (knife fighter, eagle eye, weapons expert) to truly reach its potential (which is truly devastating).

Identity wrote:

However, build 1 gets off the ground sooner, as you only need 1 skill (nimble or quickshot) plus an xbow to be decently effective. Build 2 needs 3 skills (knife fighter, eagle eye, weapons expert) to truly reach its potential (which is truly devastating).

that was another factor that came to mind. I think that leaders are generally hard pressed on the advances. they have the least advances compared to other heroes. But ironically they must take not only skills for their very own benefit but such that serve the sake of all as well.

So the captains' advances are especially sparse and I wonder if three shooting skills (in case of the upper two builds) aren't "taking too much space".

As you say correctly, the crossbow/bow combination can be quite effectful with only one skill. I wonder if I should leave the knive fighter solution to the two big uns and use a more "skill-effective" version for the boss (crossbow, bow /w hunting arrows --> quickshot).

With my boss I have 11 advances ahead. I guess that I will have around 5 "new skills" among these advances. if 3 slots are taken by shooting skills - if I even get them - might be slightly a tight plan if I also want to squeeze one or the other cc-skill into it...

My ideal Orc Boss looks like this:

Skills: 'Ride warboar', 'Da Cunning Plan', 'Cavalry commander', 'Well ard'
Most important equipment: Warboar, Light armour, Shield, Ithilmar spear, Sword

The Boar does a whole lot of nice things to your leader:

Speed
Movement 7 is awesome.

Troll
Movement 7 i still awesome. It also makes the Boss able to keep up with the troll, and 'Cavalry Commander' let's him shout at the stupid troll from up to 12".

Armour
We play with alternative armour rules, giving shield an extra point of armour save in close combat, as well changing critical hits from ignoring armour saves to have -1 on armour saves. With these rules this Orc Boss Build gives him a massive armour save of 1+ in close combat and 2+ against shooting.

Attacks
The boar has its own S5 attack when charging. The boss also has strength 5 when charging with a spear. When being charged, use the ithilmar spear if you have a chance of attacking before your enemy. If your enemy is to fast, use the sword.

Further skills could be: 'Weapons expert' and 'Knife fighter'. It's nice to be able to move 7" and throw 3 knives at S4, hitting on at worst 4+.

I jsut got resilient yesterday and it is pretty good.

Needing a 5 to wound my boss but with resilient a 6 is even better