Revised rules

Asp wrote:

i do think you are overdoing it with the skills though. why not just one 5 of a king roll that gives you a skill of choice?

Yes, could be; I think that I will change it to choose one out of two, to begin with: Combat or Shooting, Strength or Speed, and Academic or Magic. But first I would need some new exploration results to fill out the vacancies that would result...

Asp wrote:

yes you can do without it now that you get money for staying instead

Yeas, I really like the concept of tying exploration dice to how long you manage to stay in the game, or how quickly you can claim victory over your foes; I think it was CygnusMaximus that presented the idea, in another thread some weeks ago (found it while searching the forum for ideas on exploration).

Asp wrote:

no. we removed it in coreheim because it made AP unattractive (as you always got it anyway) - it gets rid of bookkeeping and diversifies the field. the con is that you need to add an extra rule to monsters and such giving them innane armour piercing.

Then I suppose that I could do the same. ;-) In which case I should probably heed your advise and give the crossbow -1 armour penetration. Though I'm unsure whether I should make any other changes as well, to keep handguns a viable alternative to crossbows (one point extra AP isn't bad, mind you, but I wonder if it is worth 6" shorter range, 5 gc higher price, and the blackpowder misfortune rule)?

Asp wrote:

I would try to keep undead speed skills at a minimum, makes for far more interesting play (they have no pain and T4 on henchmen)

Well, Crypt Ghouls have T4, that's true, but the only hero that will ever have No Pain is the vampire; neither zombies nor dire wolves can be promoted. And if I were to remove Speed skills from the warband, I would have to grant them Shooting instead (they should get to choose from among at least four lists, since they don't have any racial skills), and I thought that quick and agile undead would be preferable to overly shooty undead...

Asp wrote:

blunderbuss with flamer template is far more fun than blunderbuss with 16x1 template

Yes, I've actually been curious to try that; would you happen to know if the flamer template is available as a pdf somewhere on the net?

Quote :

Though I'm unsure whether I should make any other
changes as well, to keep handguns a viable alternative to crossbows
(one point extra AP isn't bad, mind you, but I wonder if it is worth 6"
shorter range, 5 gc higher price, and the blackpowder misfortune rule)?

not by a long shot

does handgun have S5 in your rules?

does it fire every turn?

Quote :

Well, Crypt Ghouls have T4, that's true, but the
only hero that will ever have No Pain is the vampire; neither zombies
nor dire wolves can be promoted.

youve got to look at the warband as a whole, not just the heroes

Asp wrote:

does handgun have S5 in your rules?
does it fire every turn?

No but yes, this is what it looks like atm:

Crossbow
25 gc; Common
Strength: 4; 30"
Move or fire, Armour piercing (-1)

Handgun
30 gc; Rare 8
Strength: 4; 24"
Move or fire, Armour piercing (-2), Blackpowder weapon

Do you think it would be fair to just raise the handgun to S5? And if so, should I also lower the range, or make any other adjustments? S5 and -2AP within 24" sounds quite lethal, but perhaps it is OK...?

Asp wrote:

youve got to look at the warband as a whole, not just the heroes

Yes, I just assumed that you meant that they would be able to get promoted heroes with No Pain, since you were talking about skills... But, regarding Speed skills: do you think that they would be better off wint Shooting skills than with Speed skills? Or are you suggesting that I try to give them some racial skills instead?In what way would Speed skills stand in the way of interresting undeadwarbands btw? (I would really like to hear your thoughts on this)

just checked it out. handgun is not good enough right now.

not to despair, there are several easy fixes, but it depends on what kind of handgun you want. right now you have moved the price closer to crossbow, so maybe you are trying to create a weapon that is just as good, but will be used just as often? the benefit to keeping the 35gc tag is that you can make a really neat handgun

remember, only mercs can use handguns for free so its okay if they are better than weapons that most warband can use without skills.

i cant find you skill section. handgun design also depends on if you are going to let heroes move and fire it with a skill and skills or items will easily be able to increase its range

Quote :

do you think that they would be better off wint
Shooting skills than with Speed skills?

no shooting skills!

Quote :

Or are you suggesting that I try
to give them some racial skills instead?

that would be an interesting idea if you could make some

Quote :

In what way would Speed skills
stand in the way of interresting undeadwarbands btw? (I would really
like to hear your thoughts on this)

it would make the warband easier to play. speed skills allow dodge (avoid shooting) and climbing assistance making it easier for dregs to storm-climb snipers. but thats not what undead should be about. it should be about resilient fear causing close combat creatures.

Tzapquiel wrote:

[Do you think it would be fair to just raise the handgun to S5? And if so, should I also lower the range, or make any other adjustments? S5 and -2AP within 24" sounds quite lethal, but perhaps it is OK...?

My favorite fix is to allow it to roll two dice on the injury table but keep the "reload" and "armour-piercing" rules as they are.

Tzapquiel wrote:

Yes, I just assumed that you meant that they would be able to get promoted heroes with No Pain, since you were talking about skills... But, regarding Speed skills: do you think that they would be better off with Shooting skills than with Speed skills? Or are you suggesting that I try to give them some racial skills instead?In what way would Speed skills stand in the way of interresting undeadwarbands btw? (I would really like to hear your thoughts on this)

It might be interesting to allow the necromancer to experiment on them, grafting on the reanimated parts of dead things and such instead of a racial skill list or opening up shooting/speed skills. Though I wouldn't be as opposed to speed skills as Asp is - dregs are human, after all (even if it doesn't fit with the overall flavour of the Undead).

Tbh i don't like the drastic changes to undead warband lists, like dregs as henchmen or making them shooty or having them run.

From a fluff point of view i really like how GW did the undead vampire warband.

The main problem with undead lies later in campaign as only ghoules will keep evolving. So what we will try out is actually linking the zombie and dire wolves experience to the Necromancer.

My solution is a new skil list for the necro. When ever he gains a skill instead of opting for spells he can go for a skill that will improve zombies and or dire wolves.

This way they still get better over time, but the weak point will be the
necromancer as if this one happens to die or goes ooa they will lose any
advancement with him forever or for the rest of the battle.
It makes zombies and dire wolves more intersting later in the campaign, opens more choices in the composition of the warband while making the necromancer much more important for the undead player and also much more of an interesting target.

Necromantic arts:

1. zombies and dire wolves ignore result of 1 on injury chart and are only taken ooa on a 6 instead of 5 or 6.

2. Unholy toughness: zombies and dire wolves gain +1 toughness (max 4)

3. Putrid stench: zombies and dire wolves are harder to hit in melee, -1 to hit.

4. Improved Call of Vanhel: The spell Call of Vanhel affects a group of zombies or Dire wolves instead of only 1. (chose other or reroll if Necro doesn't have the spell)

5. Improved Re-animation: The necromancer can re-animate zombies that went ooa during any turn not only the last turn. (chose other or reroll if he doesn't have reanimation)

6.Unholy strenght : zombies gain +1 strenght Dire wolves gain AP

Feel free to comment and give your thoughts on this maybe other skills!

nonono

Asp wrote:

just checked it out. handgun is not good enough right now.

not to despair, there are several easy fixes, but it depends on what kind of handgun you want. right now you have moved the price closer to crossbow, so maybe you are trying to create a weapon that is just as good, but will be used just as often? the benefit to keeping the 35gc tag is that you can make a really neat handgun

remember, only mercs can use handguns for free so its okay if they are better than weapons that most warband can use without skills.

CygnusMaximus wrote:

My favorite fix is to allow it to roll two dice on the injury table but keep the "reload" and "armour-piercing" rules as they are.

I really don't like the reload rule, with the added bookkeeping from trying to keep track of which turn this or that model fired his weapon. Two injury dice is a rather simple, but very powerful, fix. But what about giving them the Concussion attribute (stun on 2-4), would that help give them a reasonable edge towards the crossbow, to compensate for higher price and lower range?

Asp wrote:

i cant find you skill section. handgun design also depends on if you are going to let heroes move and fire it with a skill and skills or items will easily be able to increase its range

Yes, the skills are not finished yet, though I have a mail with some ideas and suggestions that I will try to work through some time soon.

Asp wrote:

it would make the warband easier to play. speed skills allow dodge (avoid shooting) and climbing assistance making it easier for dregs to storm-climb snipers. but thats not what undead should be about. it should be about resilient fear causing close combat creatures.

Good points, I will see if we can work out some skills that fits with the "resilient fear causing close combat creatures" theme, if we do I'll remove the Speed skill list from the Undead, but until then I guess they are stuck with their Speed skills...

Tannhauser wrote:

Necromantic arts [...]

While this would give the undead some nice flavour, and put a strong focus on the necromantic foundation of the warband, I feel it would be absolutely terrible from a game perspective. The whole "if the vampire should die, you are screwed" is one thing that I never liked about the undead in the core rules; what this rule would do is to create a "if the necromancer should die, you are screwed" situation for the warband, and it would make the necromancer the prime target for all enemies.

Tzapquiel wrote:

Tannhauser wrote:

Necromantic arts [...]

While this would give the undead some nice flavour, and put a strong focus on the necromantic foundation of the warband, I feel it would be absolutely terrible from a game perspective. The whole "if the vampire should die, you are screwed" is one thing that I never liked about the undead in the core rules; what this rule would do is to create a "if the necromancer should die, you are screwed" situation for the warband, and it would make the necromancer the prime target for all enemies.

I see what you mean and how that would be terrible for you. But i think of the skill list mainly to be a bonus to the necromancer improving the henchmen more than a necessity.

That's how we see the undead from the fluff anyway and want them to operate meaning the Vampire and the Necro and their disposable tools.
I think everyone had to accept that vampire just play differently from other warbands and that striking their main heroes always hurted them MORE than other warbands while at the same time hitting their Henchme hurted them MUCH MUCH less than other warbands where henchmen often are ins small groups or carry expensive equipment.

Also a necro is easyer to keep out of harm than a vampire which always tends to be inmids of melee fights.

Anyway as i and my group don't want to dilute the fluff too much this seems as an easy fix for a late campaign vampire warband (if a real fix is needed as adding a warlock and an ogre already goes a long way)

Asp wrote:

nonono

i don't really know what to respond to this but i guess you meant this is far to different from your precious coreheim to be worth of any consideration.

I really like Tannhauser's suggestion - though I think the main downfall is that the Necromancer would be gaining those abilities instead of skills that would help with his survivability.

You might consider making them effects of difficult to find and possibly expensive rare items that are "Necromancer Only" - that way they'll only show up late in the campaign and won't interfere with the Necromancer's normal upgrades. (e.g., The Book of VanHel for improved Call of Vanhel, Scroll of Wallach for +1 T, etc.).

the intial idea was to give the zombies some of theese upgrades(toughness, injury chart and strenght) at 5, 9,14 exp (so they would have 1 less advancment than other henchmen and also later)

But for fluff reasons and maybe balance i don't know we thought it's better it's linked to the necro and give the player the choice, more spells, more survivability or better henchmen.
But with items this would also work very well.

Does it really matter how you do it?

Tannhauser wrote:

Does it really matter how you do it?

I suppose not - and I apologize, I assumed you meant those were skills the Necromancer would have to choose instead of his normal ones.

I think having the necromancer/vampire be such important elements of the warband is how it should be - afterall, killing an undead general starts the whole army falling apart in Warhammer. They're that important to keep alive!

hey no need to apologize lol there was no offense!

Yes it will probably be a skill list the necro can choose from instead of going for another skill list. So you assumed right.

I meant by does it matter, you can implement it the way you want, the fact remains the only thing that needs a bit of help later in campaign is the use for zombies as at some point they just become free xp for opposing warbands.

CygnusMaximus wrote:

I think having the necromancer/vampire be such
important elements of the warband is how it should be - afterall,
killing an undead general starts the whole army falling apart in
Warhammer. They're that important to keep alive!

that's my opinion too, and something i think one should accept when playing undead...

dreg/ghoul skills:

ghoulkin
ghouls within 6" of hero will have armour piercing 1
not active while KD/S

crypt crawler
- warrior does not deploy at start of battle
- instead, at the start of each of your turns he may deploy on any table edge
- must be at least 12" from an enemy or scenario objective
- may not charge first turn
- but may shoot, climb etc.

limbsticher
hero has a 5+ save against arm injury, leg injury, chest wound, hand injury

More skills

Bloodlust: A ghoul that takes a model OOA gains Frenzy.
Bloodlust: A ghoul that scores an unsaved wounding hit gains Frenzy.
Bloodlust: The ghoul gains frenzy.
Tough Hide: Ghoul gains a 6+ armour save.
Won't Stay Down: The ghoul ignores stunned or knocked down results on a 5+.
Won't Stay Down: The ghoul counts Stunned results as Knocked Down on a 5+. If the ghoul has this skill and Jump Up then he ignores stunned results completely on a 5+
Fierce Loyalty: Dregs or Ghouls with this skill gain Frenzy when withing 6" of the Vampire or Necromancer.

Asp wrote:

dreg/ghoul skills:

Sweet, I'll put them up for review later this week.
But I guess Crypt Crawlers "may not charge first turn" is rather unnecessary, with the "must [setup] at least 12" from an enemy or scenario objective"; the poor creature will have a hard time charging 12+" without magic or speed skills (and if you have managed to give him either, plus the necessary spell or skill, I think he deserves to get his free charge)...?

Edit: Yay! More skills, while I were writing; this looks good... ^^

I think you are right about allowing the charge under those circumstances. Skaven with Infiltrate and Sprint can pop up all over the place and charge on their first turn, circumstances permitting.

The balancing factor seems to be it is almost invariably a bad idea. Yes, your skaven gets in there and takes out a few meat shields, but then he is deep in enemy territory and unsupported and very likely going to get 13 types of crap beaten out of him. Hell, even if they do it with all 6 of their heroes that means that all 6 of their heroes are *way* ahead of their meatshields and that is really *not* good for them.

Personally, if you got your ghoul the ability to make a charge like that then I would have no problems you using that against me. And, if I have any sense, I will have deployed with that very eventuality in mind.

i agree that you could allow him to charge

though in your example, crypt crawler is still better than infiltrate

with CC, you can reserve the hero, only to charge at a critical moment

Yes, but he will still only have one of them. You are right, it could swing the battle, but I stand by my original comment of *if* he can make it happen then I would be happy to play against him with that skill.

That being said, I will freely admit that if you were to ask me again after I have had 5-10 games with him doing that trick, it is possible I will change my mind :p.

we agree l0

do people often take infiltration in your games? they never take it in mine

Oh my goodness, yes. It is easily one of the most powerful skills the Skaven have access to and is one of the big factors that make Shadow Elves as broken as they were.

Heck, if you play RAW, and your opponent is careless there are a handful of scenarios you can win during the deployment phase, if not the turn after .

Warpstone Hunt, Breakthrough, Lost Prince, Ambush, the list goes on, it really does. Man, if only you guys played vanilla Mordheim - I would love to play a campaign with you and show you the beauty of Infiltrate . I would be interested in seeing what counters you guys came up for it, too.

The good old 'victory during setup' was a funny trick to play on n00bs and it never worked after the first time (and I wouldn't do it more than once anyway, it wouldn't be funny after that). Just to clarify, I distinguish between newbies and n00bs. Newbies it would not be funny, just mean and possibly slightly cruel - especially if they were young'uns.

That being said, it is not a tool to use carelessly. Used badly you could really shoot yourself in the foot. The skill 'Hunch' goes a long way to mitigating the effectiveness of Infiltrate also.

hmm, but is infiltration good when not used to explot scenario objectives?

more of a mercenary/skaven skill by still:

Field Defences
after all terrain have been set up and all units have been deployed hero may erect up to two defensive stockades up to 2"x6" and no more than 2" high

stockades must be placed at least 12" from any model, excluding infiltrators

no effect if hero is missing the battle

back to ghouls. just throwing ideas around here:

ghoulkin
ghouls within 6" of hero will have armour
piercing 1
not active while KD/S

crypt crawler
-
warrior does not deploy at start of battle
- instead, at the start
of each of your turns he may deploy on any table edge
- must be at
least 12" from an enemy or scenario objective
- may charge, shoot, climb etc. first turn

limbsticher
hero
has a 5+ (or 4+?) save against arm injury, leg injury, chest wound, hand injury

Nightprowler
Hero always counts as being in cover.
(no effect if wearing armour/shields)

The Oath
Whenever the Vampire would roll 'Dead' this creature dies instead
- vampire looses one advance, chosen by you, but retains weapons etc.

Scavenger
each time hero takes an enemy out of action, roll a D6: on 5+, hero may take one item worth up to 10gc from hero

Red Hunger
+1 A on profile when fighting animals and mounted enemies

Defiler
?? - something poisonous?

and this:

Ghouls and Roses
err, sorry. couldnt resist

Asp wrote:

Field Defences

Sounds fun (although perhaps not for the undead)... ^^

Regarding undead and skills, btw: I guess that the Necromancer's going to lose his Speed skills too (perhaps he could get Combat skills instead), but what about the Vampire (fluff-wise I think that quick and agile vampires make perfect sense) and the mortal thralls? I'm thinking about letting them keep their Speed skills, though restricting promoted Ghouls and Dregs from getting them, but I am interrested to hear what you think...

And though I didn't find any pdf with a flamer template, I did find a small picture of one together with a 3" blast marker. It looks like the flamer should be ~2.5x8", or thereabout; would that be correct?

Edit: thanks for the additional ghoul skills! ^^