Army Builder Query

Just testing the waters here...

I've been working on updating the sorely outdated .dat files for Mordheim that Lone Wolf provides with Army Builder. Would anyone out there be interested in me posting up my work (i.e. uploading the .dats for public download)?

You may want to talk with svenn first, as he has been doing a project like this for a while.

Try a pm for svenn here:

https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/profile.forum?mode=viewprofile&u=456

I'm sure he will appreciate any help.

Best wishes.

I would recommend you check out my project that magokiron mention. It's here: http://tabletopgeeks.com/mordheim-roster-builder/

Personally, I think this is a far better Mordheim specific solution than Army Builder. I've always felt that Army Builder was too generic for any specific ruleset and it suffered because of it. Something like my Roster Builder has the entire thing in a familiar layout. Not to mention it's free.

Of course, it's all about personal preference and I realize that some people might like Army Builder better. So, I'm not sure what goes into creating the .dats, but if any of my work can be of help I'll gladly offer up anything you need.

Svenn wrote:

I've always felt that Army Builder was too generic for any specific ruleset and it suffered because of it.

...which is the thin line of legal vs illegal, where your "solution" is on the latter side, Svenn. Just sayin...

cianty wrote:

Svenn wrote:

I've always felt that Army Builder was too generic for any specific ruleset and it suffered because of it.

...which is the thin line of legal vs illegal, where your "solution" is on the latter side, Svenn. Just sayin...

What makes it illegal? The layout is similar but of my own creation (except the background for the printing, which is an image of a player created roster). The content itself may be GW IP, but it's just a vague hint at the rules. It's got names of weapons, armor, and units. It doesn't list what any of the specific rules do, so it still requires people to have the rules to play.

I suppose the content could put it towards being an infringement on their copyrights, but I think that's a stretch. Not to mention that a) the rules are all available for free anyway so it doesn't detract from their business in any way, nor does it post anything not already available to anyone and everyone for free and b) they've abandoned the game long ago.

I won't bother to argue about this. I am just saying that I am pretty sure that this not legal (compare Workstation and WotC for similar cases). This doesn't have to mean anything at all to you. But it might be worth keeping it in mind. Just in case you might be forced to shut your site down because of it at some time in the future. I am sure GW doesn't care at this moment and they unlikely to do so anytime soon. But in a few years they might.

cianty wrote:

I won't bother to argue about this. I am just saying that I am pretty sure that this not legal (compare Workstation and WotC for similar cases). This doesn't have to mean anything at all to you. But it might be worth keeping it in mind. Just in case you might be forced to shut your site down because of it at some time in the future. I am sure GW doesn't care at this moment and they unlikely to do so anytime soon. But in a few years they might.

I'm not trying to argue, I'm genuinely curious. When I started it I didn't think there would be any legal issue with it. I guess I'm just not seeing what it is about it that makes it illegal? Is it because I'm using the names and stats that they've published? I'm not using any artwork or anything.

If it's the stats, how is that different then from Army Builder? I don't have any more stats than they do really, it's just in a different format.

I think with the stats, model type names and associated special rules you are clearly using GW's IP/rules. To see about a similar case you can research why Magic Workstation is allowed and other third party software for online playing MtG is not. Again, I'm no expert. I'm just meaning to let you know to prevent potential disappointment.

cianty wrote:

I think with the stats, model type names and associated special rules you are clearly using GW's IP/rules. To see about a similar case you can research why Magic Workstation is allowed and other third party software for online playing MtG is not. Again, I'm no expert. I'm just meaning to let you know to prevent potential disappointment.

How does my roster builder differ from Army Builder in that aspect, though? We both have the same amount of names, stats, and rules. I don't even list what any of the rules do or anything, just the names. Is there a difference that I'm missing?

My thought was that because it's impossible to play with the stuff we've got listed, it was okay. There are no actual rules anywhere in there, just some names and numbers. It doesn't even have all the information you need for a specific warband, as only the name and not the special effects are listed for any rules.

I think the relevant difference is that if you are providing the Mordheim rules, then you are infringing their copyright. If you only provide a general software for warband rosters usable for any game engine, then that would be ok. In that case there would have to be plugin that users can install to customize the roster builder accordingly.

See the comments in this post e.g.: http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/05/11/26731#comments
Same thoughts I am having...

Really I don't know for sure. I just wanted to make you aware of it. Unless someone else has anything proper to add to the discussion it now is up to you to make research about it or to go on anyway and accept the possibility of GW shutting you down.

Okay, I see your point. I would expect then that providing the plugins for things like 40k, WHFB, or Mordheim would be infringing their copyright, because it's including the same rules. Those are freely available though.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm doing nothing wrong so I'll continue on with it and deal with GW if they decide it's a problem later. The tiny bits of "rules" that I'm providing are not enough to do anything with on their own. On top of that, everything I'm providing is available freely, without charge.

Also, that site has been up since at least May from what I can tell, and it's still running. And that's based on 40k, which is actually a money maker for GW (and the rulebook/army lists are not provided for free on the website). If they haven't shut that down yet, then I don't think I have much to worry about.

Thanks for the heads up though.

Whoa!

Haha I come back and check up on this thread and BOOM there's this explosion of posts

For what it's worth, I couldn't personally care less regarding the legality/illegality of anything in particular that I use or access (lol, I am after all the site admin for a site that in many cases crosses that line!). However, while Svenn's creation is indeed phenomenal for Mordheim, I also play WFB, a little 40k, and AT-43, so Army Builder is a more well rounded solution for my particular situation.

whisper2053 wrote:

Whoa!

Haha I come back and check up on this thread and BOOM there's this explosion of posts

For what it's worth, I couldn't personally care less regarding the legality/illegality of anything in particular that I use or access (lol, I am after all the site admin for a site that in many cases crosses that line!). However, while Svenn's creation is indeed phenomenal for Mordheim, I also play WFB, a little 40k, and AT-43, so Army Builder is a more well rounded solution for my particular situation.

I like to straddle that line of legality. I avoid any blatant illegal things such as hosting files directly available through GW (otherwise I'd be hosting the rulebook, Empire in Flames, and everything else there), but anything that is not available anymore (either through the website or in print form) I think is free game. I'm not trying to detract from GW or anything like that, just trying to help out with things that I happen to like. I see this as similar to abandonware video games. Once something has been out of print for so long it's fair game to post up on the internet for all.

Also, I understand the usefulness of Army Builder in that it can be used across multiple platforms, so I can fully understand why someone might use it.

Fair enough!

That being said, it looks to be that there isn't much interest in my postings, so I will just keep quietly working on the .dats for now

whisper2053 wrote:

Just testing the waters here...

I've been working on updating the sorely outdated .dat files for Mordheim that Lone Wolf provides with Army Builder. Would anyone out there be interested in me posting up my work (i.e. uploading the .dats for public download)?

By all means, please do so!I have been struggling with the decision whether to start a BTB version of the Mordheim AB .dat. Is that what you are working on, or are you constraining yourself to the Mordheim rules themselves?

SomeOrc wrote:

I have been struggling with the decision whether to start a BTB version of the Mordheim AB .dat.

Yess!!! I'd love to be able to add that to the site!

cianty wrote:

SomeOrc wrote:

I have been struggling with the decision whether to start a BTB version of the Mordheim AB .dat.

Yess!!! I'd love to be able to add that to the site!

Alright, what I have to far is pretty basic and not yet ready for the public, but I'll take this as endorsement to carry on with it.  

Well, thus far I've gotten all of the basic (core rules) stuff, as well as a good chunk of BTB, some of EiF, some of Khemri, and other assorted things that I've added as needed.

cianty wrote:

SomeOrc wrote:

I have been struggling with the decision whether to start a BTB version of the Mordheim AB .dat.

Yess!!! I'd love to be able to add that to the site!

I haven't actually played BTB yet, but I've glanced at the rules. Are there any special considerations I'd need to add them to my roster builder beyond the regular rules? If not, I can easily add them all in a few minutes.

None that I can think of, Svenn.

PS: Have you added the Moot article to your downloads section as requested in the other thread? That would be great.

cianty wrote:

None that I can think of, Svenn.

PS: Have you added the Moot article to your downloads section as requested in the other thread? That would be great.

Could you link me the thread, please? I've been incredibly busy and I think I missed it...

I could not resist. See https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/army-builder-3-btb-supplement-t3420.htm.

whisper2053 wrote:

Well, thus far I've gotten all of the basic (core rules) stuff, as well as a good chunk of BTB, some of EiF, some of Khemri, and other assorted things that I've added as needed.

Oh, ok. After your first question, I had assumed you were only just starting, but that sounds great. Would you mind showing us what you have so far?

What do you mean by "basic (core rules) stuff"? Did you start from scratch, or did you modify the existing rules? The ones from 2009 seemed to be pretty fine, as far as I could tell, but I only really looked at my own warband in there.

cianty, I uploaded The Moot file, it's under the Miscellaneous section now.

Also, I've began writing the files for the BTB armies for my roster builder. If anyone else wants to help do these, it's really simple and I can send you instructions.

The basic layout looks like this: http://www.tabletopgeeks.com/wp-content/roster/undead.xml

In fact, anyone that wants to create an army file for ANY army, I'm willing to put up in my roster builder.

Great! Let me know when you are done and I will promote it via the BTB site.

I for one would be very interested in updated AB 2.2 file for mordheim so hurry up and finish it