Coreheim

Well, from a purely marketing perspective, including something controversial gets people talking about it. I wonder, how many posts on this thread are about the rape jokes, and how many about the rules themselves? Yet even the rape-joke comments keep this thread at the top.

From my own perspective, I chose to completely and utterly disregard the rape jokes. They're not my taste, and I certainly won't expose my 6-year-old Mordheim player to them. As per my usual, I've mined Coreheim for its very useful content and ignored that which doesn't appeal to me.

And regardless of rape-joke inclusions, I'll continue to advocate my support of Asps's decision to take Mordheim and rewrite it in a manner suitable to his own playstyle, as it provided the inspiration for me to do the same.

wyldhunt wrote:

Well, from a purely marketing perspective, including something controversial gets people talking about it. I wonder, how many posts on this thread are about the rape jokes, and how many about the rules themselves? Yet even the rape-joke comments keep this thread at the top.

That is very true, in the sense that it boosts peoples awareness of the existence of Coreheim. I'm not sure though whether the overall effect is positive or not. Sure, more players become aware of Coreheim, but only those who brave the FAQ and check out the rules will... aah, this is too complicated.

Well, anyways, now that there's been all this commotion, perhaps the FAQ (as it is written now) has had all its marketing effects?

I guess it boils down to if you agree or not with the "all publicity is good publicity" statement...

Mordoten wrote:

I guess it boils down to if you agree or not with the "all publicity is good publicity" statement...

True. Although Asp would be an evil calculating bastard if that was his reason for including this joke.

Hasselt wrote:

it's made by a bunch of rape-apologists.

oh, cianty where are those warnings now?

Asp wrote:

Hasselt wrote:

it's made by a bunch of rape-apologists.

oh, cianty where are those warnings now?

*looks at empty pockets*

Yiieks! Where ARE they?!

you should have saved them for the really bad stuff

but then again, i guess this sets a new precedence for what you can call other users and get away with it - ill be looking forward to that

Hasselt wrote:

it's made by a bunch of rape-apologists.

you're wrong but i guess that is to be expected, comming from a holocaust-denier like you

IF YOU WISH TO BE INSULTING TO A FELLOW FORUM MEMBER DO SO VIA A PM OR ,BETTER YET, FACE TO FACE WHERE YOU MAY RECEIVE AN APPROPRIATE REACTION.

FURTHER BEHAVIOR OF THIS SORT WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. CONSIDER THIS A FORMAL WARNING.



Uh, look! DeafNala found one. Nice!
- cianty


Niiiiiiiccccceee.
- Duce

I must confess, when I found the Coreheim page a couple of weeks ago I didn't even see Sisters FAQ, but all this talk about repugnant and despicable rape jokes made me go back and check it out ... and I'm afraid I'm not getting it. I simply fail to see any glorifying rape propaganda; what I get from the text is rather something like: "I don't particulary care about the Sisters of Sigmar, I think GW's Holier Than Thou-aproach to them is rather silly. Thus I've decided not to Include them in my take on Mordheim, and as long as I'm not getting paid for this I hardly feel any obligation to add them to my setting just to satisfy some random internet-dwelling Sisters-fans, so you better stop complaining...", of course the author is free to contradict my interpretation if it should turn out to be wrong. (Though, on a side note, I think it is sad that they are excluded from the Coreheim setting, since I think they are among the more flavourful of the Mordheim warbands...)


But, to return on topic: I also just found out that Coreheim version 8 is out, and I quite like the simplified aproach to movement that has been added; I'm just wondering as to why you decided to lower the de facto speed from 6 to 5 (Dwarves), 8 to 6 (Humans), and 12 to 8 (Skaven). I'm not saying that I think it's bad, I'm simply curious as to why...

Also, as an unrelated note, under Minimum Characteristics (page 2) it reads: "[...] Other Characteristics cannot be reduced below 1 or increased beyond 10.", shouldn't Leadership rather be forced to stay between 2 and 10 to be viable for play (since you test against it with two dice, a score of one would in all practicality be equal to a score of zero)...?

you got my sisters right

gotta reply to the rest of it at a later time. going to zen

Whoa, dude, hey, settle down. I wanted to point out how ridiculous your arguments were getting in defending your less-than-tactful little quip on your website. Because you did start going on about Freud and the vast majority of women fantasizing about rape and that's just wrong, man. Also, arrogant. Also, disrespectful.

Also, I found the whole reasoning behind not including the Sisters (who I think are kinda imbalanced in the vanilla rules) to be out of step with the way the rest of Coreheim is written - there's not a lot of fluff in it, but suddenly there's this whole rant about Sisters not making sense in the setting. It justs feels out of place.

Anyway, the rules themselves include some worthwhile changes, though I don't care much for the 'slay' ability of some weapons (but maybe that's because I play orcs, who tend to survive against the odds). And I think the games would take even longer with the reduced movement (ours take about 2 hours or more).

All in all, some good stuff and some bad stuff.

Thank you for this reply, Hasselt. I think you did a good job in trying to prevent a flame war. Well done.
- Admin Tom

*still awating actual arguments from cianty & deafnala*

Certainly; I have yet to hear what exactly you find humorous about rape. It is a heinous dehumanizing crime that destroys lives.
I find your attitude & behavior to the rude, obnoxious, & arrogant. Your major contribution to the Forum is the spreading of acrimony. You have been warned in the past that antisocial behavior is hardly consistent with the Good Fellowship that this Forum strives for. & will not be tolerated.
DeafNala

Asp wrote:

even if you don't belive in freud, one modern
study found that 80% of women fantasized about being raped as opposed
to only 10% of men

notice the bolded part. its called context. something you raped in this thread



do you have a better axe setup?

Well, I reread the sisters FAQ, and I'm quite chocked over how narrow minded, and utterly unprovoked it is.
First of, don't really understand how you justify your exclusion of SoS by that you can't take "Young blond
virtuous virgins in a lawless city filled with warring males" serious. Even if it is an humorous attempt I think it quite unjust for anyone who think good of Sisters of Sigmar.
Also, that you narrow SoS down to "young blond virtious virgins" and not, "strong, faithfull nuns, with the burning will to put sinners at a place" or as put in the rulebook:
"The warbands of the sisterhood are led by tough Matriarchs, each accompanied by a body of warrior sisters." What in this sentence implies that they would be willing to give up their celibacy for some mad sinners horny wishes, and pass the opportunity to bludgeon their faces? I think the SoS are perhaps one of the most motivated war bands in the whole of mordheim and the whole thing leaves me wondering what kind of parochial view you have on women?

Lets not restart the whole debate now, it's a huge hornet's nest. And Asp, as you did not cite any sources for this study (it may be a blogpost for all I know), I cannot really comment on it. I would be happy to read it and tell you what I think, but as you present it, it really is the same as adopting it as your own opinion.

Anyway, back to the rules; I think each weapon should have a 'niche' of some kind and I think axes are problematic in the vanilla rules - mostly because nobody uses armour. But since we made armour cheaper in our group, made it harder to get through (strength 5 hits = -1 AS, 6 = -2, etc) and made critical more rare (you need a 6 to hit AND to wound to score one), axes also increased in usefulness. So it depends on the rules as a whole, I suppose. I just don't think you need a weapon that makes it even easier to kill a guy when he's down.

PS - Thanks Tom, I don't like flamewars but sometimes find it hard to keep quiet.

Regarding the usefulness of shock marketing, one should always consider the additional reach vs the risk of losing prospective consumers. However, shock, fear, and anger marketing seem to currently reign supreme in at least the U.S. Perhaps we're beginning to see the inevitable backlash from that now, perhaps not yet. I don't suspect Asp of shock marketing here - after all, the Sisters F.A.Q. is not in the actual Coreheim PDF, and he didn't start the rape commentary on this thread. I don't feel I'm in a place to comment on the differences he and the mods have regarding forum conduct, so I'm staying out of that one.

I re-read the Sisters F.A.Q. on the Coreheim site. I have very strong opinions about the seriousness and fallout from rape, as I've helped some victims of it. However, growing up in the public U.S. school system has also gifted me with a very thick skin (almost akin to Chaos Armor), so I am personally not offended by the jokes in the Sisters F.A.Q.

I do question why others who play wargames, especially a game like Mordheim, would be offended by these jokes. Have you really read through the background material? Have you studied the Chaos-inspired (some have said Chaos-glorifying) artwork included? Chaos possession, deals with dark gods, mutations, rampant death and mutilation, treachery galore, overt slavery, etc., etc., etc... It seems that rape is the only "evil" content not included.

I talked over the rape jokes with my wife this morning, as we do have interesting discussions regarding defending what we perceive as the rights of free speech vs. what we regard as "hate-speech." While she did take offense to the rape jokes (even the idea of them), when I went over all the other material readily included in Mordheim, she could not maintain that the rape jokes were any worse.

However, I don't agree with Asp's take that the Sisters should not be in Mordheim, nor couldn't last, or would act as per the jokes. I even made reference to what others would think of the Sisters in this thread: https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/battle-reports-and-fluff-f11/the-wyldhunt-winter-2010-campaign-t3294.htm. Text: 'The pirate boys were about to take their fun with the fallen Sisters, but Captain Sweet snapped, “Leave them! You have not heard the tales I have of their magic, and what it might do to you were you to take them! You can have your fill of the Brigandsburg girls tonight!” So the other pirates reluctantly left the weaker sex to the city, and went in search of other treasures.'

Popmouth wrote:

I think the SoS are perhaps one of the most motivated war bands in the whole of mordheim and the whole thing leaves me wondering what kind of parochial view you have on women?

Hah, it's like a Freudian slip that got expressed through a fabricated post by Freud. Layers upon layers here.

Oh hey, whoever mentioned Coreheim's new movement rules is right, that is pretty interesting.

wyldhunt wrote:

However, I don't agree with Asp's take that the Sisters should not be in Mordheim, nor couldn't last, or would act as per the jokes. I even made reference to what others would think of the Sisters in this thread: https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/battle-reports-and-fluff-f11/the-wyldhunt-winter-2010-campaign-t3294.htm. Text: 'The pirate boys were about to take their fun with the fallen Sisters, but Captain Sweet snapped, “Leave them! You have not heard the tales I have of their magic, and what it might do to you were you to take them! You can have your fill of the Brigandsburg girls tonight!” So the other pirates reluctantly left the weaker sex to the city, and went in search of other treasures.'

This fluff also leaves me pondering, you end with the "weaker sex" thus stating that they always are weaker, even though (this gets a bit corny, since it's metal/plastic figures where discussing – still you get what I man right?). Why point out "the weaker sex", nothing states that, even if these sisters fell, that the whole sex would be weaker then these pirates? Why, is women always at the mercy of men? You could have written "the wounded nuns" instead of "the weaker sex" or something like that!
I don't have problem with any jokes per se; I believe it is all about context. A rape joke can be absolutely hilarious within a private group, or perhaps at a stand up comedy club, with a certain jargon. Though I think it quite rigid to post such a joke in a public context like this. I don't see the joke as the main problem either, rather in the arrogant manner it was written, and I really don't understand why SoS shouldn't be a part of Mordheim when the argument is "because they would be raped"?

Amazing! Four pages about rape and weaker sex.... shouldn\'t we talk
about rules here? Will you in Sigmar\'s sake cease discussing the rape
issue again and again? Don\'t you feel there was said enough and there
are no more new ideas about it, which we need so urgently to know?

Let\'s
get back to the rules again please.

I love... lamp...

I love... desk...

popmouth, personally I don't view either gender as weaker than the other, and I have plenty of personal experiences defending the equality of both genders during my whole life to prove this.

The text is from a story, filtered from a Pirate warband's viewpoint (even if it was written in third-person), after a Scenario in which they trounced the Sisters. So in that time-and-place, the Sisters proved weaker, and Pirates commenting that they were a weaker sex would be an outlet for their frustration, and I purposefully used this cliche statement to show a Chauvinistic attitude from the Pirates. If I had written a story about a reversed situation, I would have very likely included a similarly demeaning statement about men, from the Sisters' point of view. You can find similar viewpoint-filtered statements in my other warband stories, and in most fiction that exists.

You focusing on that statement out of all the statements I placed in that post does lead me to wonder about how far some are trying to be politicially correct in a game setting that features a lot of gore, violence and very un-politically correct content. It looks like racial slurs are fine (within the races presented in the game, and not commenting on real-word races, although I can find attitudes expressed in GW work that can be taken to be very racist), and particular group slurs are fine (such as Witch Hunter views on SoS), however gender-based slurs are not. I honestly find that hypocritical.

As far as continuing to comment on this aspect of our own behavior in this thread, I'm finding this to be a very interesting and (from my own perspective) contradictory aspect of some Mordheim players, and would like to shed some additional light on it with this post.

wyldhunt wrote:

As far as continuing to comment on this aspect of our own behavior in this thread, I'm finding this to be a very interesting and (from my own perspective) contradictory aspect of some Mordheim players, and would like to shed some additional light on it with this post.

That's fair. But Asp's Coreheim thread is not the place for this. If you really want to discuss these aspects, please open another thread in the general discussion - or by all means in the general Mordheim section, if the discussion is somehow specific to Mordheim and not wargaming in general.

Further posts that have nothing to do with the Coreheim rules set will be deleted. Please get back on topic, everybody.

So Tom says I should post links to peer reviwed studies.

DeafNala says that I should explain for the Nth time why rape jokes can be funny.

And Cianty says that any further posts not dealing with the rules will be deleted.

...as long as you can all agree.

I would like to know why:

- Its okay for someone to call me and my friends "rape apologists", without the mods taking action, but not okay for me to pay that someone back in kind

Why

- Someone else can waste everyone's time with the why change mordheim-thread, a classic trolling move, and the mods refusing to take action, yet when I follow the precedence willingly set by Cianty in this thread I am accused of trolling.

- Despite my attempt to be constructive earlier in this thread:

Asp wrote:

so i dont have a problem with people criticizing the rules
i
dont have a problem with people calling my sisters faq lame
i dont
have a problem with people constructively criticizing my attitude

I am faulted for trolling. The real trolls in this thread are the people why cry "rape apologists" when I or my friends said no such thing.

The real trolls are the people who insist on being "shocked" and "offended" and then believing that such emotional states merit special treatment. *caugh caugh muhammed-cartoons caugh caugh*

Hence my reply. I would not be surprised if you deleted it, or issued yet another warning on another arbitrary premises which you have not intention of extending to anyone else on the forum.

i'm just saying: the moderation of this thread "took sides" from the beginning. eigther you intervene when someone accuses me of being a "rape apologist" to prevent the thread from getting out of hand, or you don't and accept that i'm likely going to pay my accuser back in kind. cianty clearly indicated that he found that kind of behavior acceptable.

----------

but on to the rules:

axes: the problem with armour piercing is still that no matter how effective you make armour, axes will not be as all-round efficient as clubs. the current slay rule, while not perfect, makes axe a good "kill-stealing" weapon, attractive to heroes who gain xp from outing enemies.

someone wrote to us to suggest giving zombies M5 and the "we'll be back rule from the Necron Codex". - does anyone know what that rule does?

@Wyldhunt: Fair enough you have a point, it may be somewhat of a hypocrisy, and I'm sure you have a sane view on the subject. And it gets quite banal when applicating these aspects in fantasy-context where (fluffwise) moral and ethics are way different then our contemporary views. I can however get quite tired of the general sexism that seems to pollute the whole fantasy-world; near-to-nude-women, brutish men, you know it. In another way, it's quite nice as well, to perhaps have an oasis in all political correctness...

@Everyone else: I'm definetly willing to leave the "rape-joke-issue" at this, I think most things has been said, and I won't be flogging no dead horse anymore.
Guess we should go back to the rules...
And I'm sorry if I lingered with this subject to long.

So, back to rules:
I don't understand what the positive effects of reducing movement is? Doesn't games just take longer time?
It is quite an unexpected fix, and I personally haven't seen any problem with this aspect of the game (and then I play at quite small tables, about 3.6' x 3.6', or 110cm x 110cm) Games usually go on for about 45-90 min, and usually the first turn is just moving.