Newish Warband: Mercenaries of Nuln

The small lenses swiveled into place via brass arms that locked them in place, beneath them sat a small clay tray and within the blackened chip of stone, sickly greenish cracks glowed across the surface ... Eustasius Weber peered though the lenses at the sample of wyrdstone intensely and his brow furrowed as the heavy wooden door thudded open "Master Weber sir.... I'm sorry sir but", Eustasius sat up slowly and turned to the apprentice, his face draining of colour at the look he received from the old Engineer "I'm in the middle of a very important study my lad ... the very future of the Empire maybe molded in these walls ... what is it?", the young apprentice licked his lips nervously "Sir, another order of Marx & Weber #9 Repeaters .... ten Sir, for Mercenaries sir"

Eustasius snorted and turned back to the sample, it was incredibly hard to get a hold of, even this tiny piece, he took a pair of pincers and picked it out of the clay dish, placing it on the work bench, he carefully took a chisel and hammer and with a delicate tap chipped off an even smaller piece, barely a crumb "Yes, yes, fools the lot of them, gallivanting off to some hellish place ... eager for treasure and fame, none of them truly know the value of what they are dealing with" he held the crumb of wyrdstone between the pincers and dropped it into a beaker of liquid, it soon started to bubble and than pulse with an odd light "The power of good that a brilliant mind could use it for."

The apprentice stared across at him, a confused look on his face "Sir?" inquired the young man, not sure what to make of this rant, merely wishing to know how to proceed with the order. Eustasius stared into the bubbling liquid, the chip of wyrdstone swirling in a miniature maelstrom, a wild look in his eyes as if hypnotized by it, he stood up and muttered to himself "I'll need more, much more" than turned to the apprentice "Mercenaries you say?" the boy nodded slowly "Y..yes Sir" as Eustasius stalked slowly and deliberately towards him and in uncharacteristic friendliness placed an arm around his shoulder as he grinned an odd grin "My lad, how would you like to be part of the most amazing breakthrough of modern science ...."

So I've gotten into a mind of remaking certain warbands lately, so I tried to think of something new, I hadn't seen any warband based on Nuln so I started to write up a rough outline of one (I later came across the Artillery School of Nuln warband, but thought I'd continue this one just to see how it goes).

The main difference from the other human mercenaries is the inclusion of Engineers and their more unusual inventions and weapons ... as well as a somewhat wider access to the more unique weaponry of Mordheim and slightly cheaper blackpowder weapons.

This is my rough draft so far.

Choice of Warriors
A Nuln Warband must include a minimum of 3 models. You have 500 Gold Crowns which you can use to recruit your initial warband. Maximum number of warriors is 15.

Heroes
Captain: Each Nuln Mercenary Warband must have one Captain: No more no less!

Sergeant: Your warband may include a single Sergeant.

Master Engineer: Your warband may include a single Master Engineer.

Apprentice Engineers: Your warband may include up to two Apprentice Engineers.

Henchmen
Warriors: Any number of models maybe Warriors.

Gunners: Your warband may include up to seven Gunners.

Pistoliers: Your warband may include up to five Pistoliers.

Starting Experience
A Captain starts with 20 experience.

A Sergeant starts with 8 experience.

A Master Engineer starts with 8 experience.

Apprentice Engineers start with 0 experience.

All Henchmen start with 0 experience.

NULN MERCENARY EQUIPMENT LISTS

Hand-to-hand Weapons
Dagger (1st Free/2 gc)
Mace/Hammer (3 gc)
Axe (5 gc)
Sword (10 gc)
Spear (10 gc)
Halberd (10 gc)
Morning Star (15 gc)
Double-handed Weapon (15 gc)

Missile Weapons
Bow (10 gc)
Pistol (10 gc / 20 gc for Brace)
Dueling Pistol (20 gc / 40 gc for Brace)
Crossbow (25 gc)
Blunderbuss (25 gc)
Handgun (30 gc)

Armour
Light Armour (20 gc)
Heavy Armour (50 gc)
Shield (5 gc)
Buckler (5 gc)
Helmet (10 gc)

GUNNERY EQUIPMENT LISTS

Hand-to-hand Weapons
Dagger (1st Free/2 gc)
Mace/Hammer (3 gc)
Axe (5 gc)
Sword (10 gc)

Missile Weapons
Pistol (10 gc / 20 gc for Brace)
Dueling Pistol (20 gc / 40 gc for Brace)
Crossbow (25 gc)
Blunderbuss (25 gc)
Handgun (30 gc)
Repeater Crossbow (40 gc)
Hochland Long Rifle (150 gc)

Armour
Light Armour (20 gc)
Shield (5 gc)
Buckler (5 gc)
Helmet (10 gc)

ENGINEER EQUIPMENT LISTS

Hand-to-hand Weapons
Dagger (1st Free/2 gc)
Hammer (3 gc)
Sword (10 gc)
Hook Halberd (? gc)
Man Catcher (? gc)
Ball & Chain (? gc)

Missile Weapons
Pistol (10 gc / 20 gc for Brace)
Dueling Pistol (20 gc / 40 gc for Brace)
Repeater Pistol (? gc / ? gc for Brace)
Crossbow (25 gc)
Crossbow Pistol (35 gc)
Repeater Crossbow (40 gc)
Handgun (30 gc)
Repeater Handgun (? gc)
Hochland Long Rifle (150 gc)
Blunderbuss (25 gc)
Grenade Launching Blunderbuss (? gc)

Armour
Light Armour (20 gc)
Buckler (5 gc)
Helmet (10 gc)

Miscellaneous
Superior Blackpowder (30 gc)
Pigeon Bomb (? gc)
Mechanical Horse (? gc)
Others?

Special Equipment
I'm not entirely sure what to do with each of these yet, so ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Hook Halberd: Acts as a regular Halberd, though its meant to be extra effective again cavalry (not to prominent in Mordheim games) ... another idea is that it can trip opponents, possibly if you hit a foe they must make a initiative test or be knocked down.

Man Catcher: A staff with two pincer like prongs on the end with lots of sharp teeth, snap the pincers around them and end up puncturing their body in a 360 loop. Killing blow was suggested for the Warhammer equivalent (can't say I'm entirely sure how it works) ... if you roll a 6 to hit the target is automatically wounded I think? That or has a bonus to injury rolls maybe? Two handed.

Ball & Chain: A Morning Star with a (sometimes steam motored) chain and large iron ball on the end. +3 on the first round of combat, two handed.
Repeater Hangun: My idea was a hangun that may repeatedly (duh) fire, each shot after the first having a -1 penalty to hit, a roll of 1 causing the gun to jam.

Repeater Pistol: Similar to above but pistol sized.

Grenade Launching Blunderbuss: Perhaps a one shot like the regular blunderbuss, causing a 3" diameter or 2" explosion of strength 6 (WFB stat) to all hit by it.

Pigeon Bomb: A bomb that can hit anyone the Engineer can see, but has the unforunate chance of flying back to its owner ... 3" diameter explosion for S3 or S4.

Mechanical Steed: A rather silly looking steam powered horse, very much barding included and better strength and toughness than a regular Warhorse as I imagine it.

Nuln Mercenary Skill Tables
Captain: Combat, Shooting, Academic, Strength, Speed.
Sergeant: Combat, Shooting, Strength.
Master Engineer: Shooting, Academic, Special.
Apprentice Engineer: Shooting, Speed, Special.

I'm not sure what the special skills will be at this point, but certainly invention or equipment orientated ... one idea so far was 'Weapons Tinker' which would allow you to roll a D6 for a single ranged weapon and consult a table where it might gain extra strength, range, accuracy, etc .... or possibly get botched, all only effective (or ineffective) for a game.

HEROES

1 Captain
60 Gold Crowns to hire.
Though the curious Engineering corps maybe funding expeditions to Mordheim and possibly even accompanying them, hardened down to earth Captains are relied upon to act as leaders of the common man even in Nuln.

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	4	4	4	3	3	1	4	1	8

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Nuln Mercenary List.

Special Rules: Leader

0-1 Sergeants
35 Gold Crowns to hire.
The second in command to the Captain.

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	4	4	3	3	3	1	3	1	7

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Nuln Mercenary List.

0-1 Master Engineers
40 Gold Crowns to hire.
The possibilities of Wyrdstone are limitless it is said in the schools of Nuln and while some are happy to remain in the safety of the city and their laboratories, paying others to recover it for them, a few are brave (or foolish) enough to go themselves .... besides, they will be far closer to making the grand descover of the wyrdstones capibilities first before those stuffy cowards back at the school will.

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	4	3	4	3	3	1	3	1	7

Special Rules: Unsure as of yet.

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Engineer List.

0-2 Apprentice Engineers
15 Gold Crowns to hire.
Some eager to partake in the wonderful experiments out of the field, others haplessly dragged along. The apprentice isn't the most well prepared, but has a better understanding of some of the more unusual inventions the more senior engineers produce ... the downside to this is that they are usually the first to be allowed to test them out in the field.

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	4	2	2	3	3	1	3	1	6

Special Rules: Maybe? Something minor compared to the Master Engineers.

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Engineer List.

HENCHMEN

Warriors
25 Gold Crowns to hire.
Even Nuln relies on footsoldiers to form the lines of battle, though they are more familar with blackpowder weapons than other mercenaries.

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	4	3	3	3	3	1	3	1	7

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Nuln Mercenary List.

Gunners
25 Gold Crowns to hire.
Due to Nulns aptitude for producing blackpowder weaponry they tend to rely more on trained gunners than archers, though they are known to make use of crossbows as well as handguns and pistols.

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	4	3	3	3	3	1	3	1	7

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Gunnery List.

Pistoliers
35 Gold Crowns to hire.
Typically young nobles and would be Knights, Pistoliers specialise in the use of pistols and other small fire-arms. And are well suited to fighting from horse back.

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	4	3	3	3	3	1	3	1	7

Special Rules: Pistoliers (As Shooting Skill), Ride Horse.

Equipment: Weapons and Armour from the Gunnery List.


The fluff is very much done on the spot and will be imrpoved I hope, so, what do you guys think of this skeleton work for the warband? Any suggestions, ideas and all are very welcome.

I think this warband will be seriously hampered by its reliance on blackpowder weapons - which are simply not worth their money in Mordheim - unless you give them some serious advantages.
The Nuln gunnery school list had some good ideas to make blackpowder weapons better (25gc handguns, extra range, marksmen with hunter skill etc.), maybe you should adopt a similar approach. Normal handguns are worse than crossbows. Their cost should reflect this. This is equally true for the hochland lon rifle, it is simply not worth 150gc (you can get 5 henchmen for that!).
For the weapons that both Nuln warbands use (e.g. the repeater weapons) i would not invent any new special rules. That is simply too confusing.
I suggest dropping the repeating crossbows - they don´t fit the fluff of a Nuln warband very well.
I hope this helps a little bit.

wrote a whole big thing about it but the stupid internet crashed, so im going to be breif;

1. lose all the special items except for repeater pistol and pigeon bombs. you have way too many and mordheim is ment to be simple. suggestions on how they are to work;

repeater pistol - engineers only. 1 roll to hit, 2 hits if successful can take a brace of them. special rule - experimental: if you roll a 1 and need to consult the black powder table, role twice and take the worst result.

pigeon bomb. engineers only. roll on the table below. target a single point on the map within LoS to the weilder.

1. returns to the engineer, resolve blast centred on him
2-3 blows up in mid air
4-5 scatters 2d6" from point. a hit results in a half scatter (follow the little hit arrow)
6. scatters 1d6" hit results in no scatter

deals S3(6) like a stone thrower or mortar

pistoliers are teh broken. 2 skills for 10g = fail. drop ride, its useless in mordheim and not cool for 5 guys riding around like wankers on an open table if you play like that. cant remember what the pistoliers skill does, but im sure it is counter balanced by the cost of black powder

If this seems aggressive, i dont mean it to be, I just like to be blunt with rules designing.

EDIT: you obviously are writing this list for yourself and as such are including everything you can think of. dont. Its a flaw most beginning rules writers have and it only works negatively in convincing people to let you play with it.

mrbretonnia wrote:

EDIT: you obviously are writing this list for yourself and as such are including everything you can think of. dont. Its a flaw most beginning rules writers have and it only works negatively in convincing people to let you play with it.

Oh not so much, I just like to write up ideas for fun sometimes, but happy to see what mistakes I'm making, and hopefully can improve on.

The number of new weapons was mostly from previous and present Engineer equipment that has appeared in Warhammer, I may trim back on them if they get to much, but I like to go the whole hog at first than trim the fat as I work it out. But to me, if your going to play an Engineer themed band, wacky contraptions are a must.

Thanks.

Why not allow special skills to all heroes, especially the leader?

Also, I wouldn't give Apprentice Engineers any special rules, unless you were to bump their cost up. At present they look like they may as well be Youngbloods though, which is good because they cost the same amount.

I would nix the repeater crossbow and crossbow pistols, and instead add double-barreled guns.

Also, I've heard that the Gunnery School is quite overpowered. I have no firsthand experience as or against them, but perhaps those that do could give some insight as to how, exactly, so that you'll have an idea of what to avoid with designing this warband.

mrbretonnia wrote:

1. lose all the special items except for repeater pistol and pigeon bombs. you have way too many and mordheim is ment to be simple. suggestions on how they are to work;

I disagree, Mordheim is supposed to be anything but simple. Rather than regiment-based like warhammer, it's all about the individual. By late-campaign practically every character has a whole host of special rules in the form of skills, injuries, and equipment. I would keep most of the specialized equipment, especially since a large number of those items were included in the Nemesis Crown Nuln warband as well. If I were to cut anything, it would be the Mancatcher and Ball & Chain since they don't shout "Nuln" to me, and the Ball & Chain especially seems like it's covered well enough by morningstars and flails.

I do second Horatius though, for consistency's sake make the special equipment follow the same rules as the other Nuln warband (unless it's unanimously agreed that any of those are unbalanced).

mrbretonnia wrote:

pistoliers are teh broken. 2 skills for 10g = fail. drop ride, its useless in mordheim and not cool for 5 guys riding around like wankers on an open table if you play like that. cant remember what the pistoliers skill does, but im sure it is counter balanced by the cost of black powder

On the contrary, "Ride" is pretty essential if you actually plan on taking a mount, not only in that it makes you considerably less vulnerable to injury but also in that it opens up the whole host of riding skills. However, I'm not sure that it needs to be listed, as (I believe) it's assumed that any model who is recruited with a mount automatically knows the corresponding "Ride" skill. Besides, mounts are an integral part of the pistolier unit.

Otherwise, they're like Swordsmen for normal mercs (35 gc henchman with a skill to start out), except that they don't have any stat upgrades. I think the price is right.

mrbretonnia wrote:

EDIT: you obviously are writing this list for yourself and as such are including everything you can think of. dont. Its a flaw most beginning rules writers have and it only works negatively in convincing people to let you play with it.

Lots of warbands have lots of special rules and equipment, but for some reason people often seem to feel that humans don't deserve them. I think the warband looks decent and the units are very straightforward - they're just like other humans except they get lots of guns.

I may consider dropping the price on guns for recruitment, but not late-game, so that it's a little easier to kit everyone up.

For the clock-work steed, I would make it tough and with inherent barding, but also perhaps unreliable seeing as it's experimental technology. For simplicity's sake you could essentially say it has an Old Battle Wound, and before each game on a roll of 1 it requires some maintenance and can't be brought to battle.

Myntokk wrote:

Why not allow special skills to all heroes, especially the leader?

The special skills in my mind are mad science/engineer based, hence why I only gave them to the Master Engineer and Apprenctice.

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Also, I wouldn't give Apprentice Engineers any special rules, unless you were to bump their cost up. At present they look like they may as well be Youngbloods though, which is good because they cost the same amount.

Fair enough, they have access to wackier equipment, that'll do I think.

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I would nix the repeater crossbow and crossbow pistols, and instead add double-barreled guns.

I feel abit dubious about adding something thats mostly unique to another Warband, Ostland, but I have dropped the crossbows.

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Also, I've heard that the Gunnery School is quite overpowered. I have no firsthand experience as or against them, but perhaps those that do could give some insight as to how, exactly, so that you'll have an idea of what to avoid with designing this warband.

I'll take that in mind, I've been glancing over it so far, but not taking it to indepth yet.

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I disagree, Mordheim is supposed to be anything but simple. Rather than regiment-based like warhammer, it's all about the individual. By late-campaign practically every character has a whole host of special rules in the form of skills, injuries, and equipment. I would keep most of the specialized equipment, especially since a large number of those items were included in the Nemesis Crown Nuln warband as well.

I very much agree, my whole idea behind the warband was 'Human Mercenaries ... but with wacky weapons!' so the extras I really don't feel I want to drop. Also I added the telescope and compass from Town Crier to the list of items an Engineer can get ahold if. This suits due to the large number of engineer/crewmen models with spy glasses and the like

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If I were to cut anything, it would be the Mancatcher and Ball & Chain since they don't shout "Nuln" to me, and the Ball & Chain especially seems like it's covered well enough by morningstars and flails.

The Hook Halberd, Man Catcher and Ball & Chain where weapons from the old Empire War Wagon (which I'm considering allowing them to buy) where a bunch of Engineers sat up in a sort of tower wagon with a bunch of crazy weapons, including long rifles, blunderbusses and repeater handguns I believe.

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I do second Horatius though, for consistency's sake make the special equipment follow the same rules as the other Nuln warband (unless it's unanimously agreed that any of those are unbalanced).

I'll try my best, but if I see a better way to write something (in my mind) or improve it I will tend to.

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On the contrary, "Ride" is pretty essential if you actually plan on taking a mount, not only in that it makes you considerably less vulnerable to injury but also in that it opens up the whole host of riding skills. However, I'm not sure that it needs to be listed, as (I believe) it's assumed that any model who is recruited with a mount automatically knows the corresponding "Ride" skill. Besides, mounts are an integral part of the pistolier unit.

Otherwise, they're like Swordsmen for normal mercs (35 gc henchman with a skill to start out), except that they don't have any stat upgrades. I think the price is right.

This was my thinking, I've since changed up the equipment lists, Pistoliers can purchase a horse for 40 gc, which will help with the feel. Glad the price seems reasonable.

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Lots of warbands have lots of special rules and equipment, but for some reason people often seem to feel that humans don't deserve them. I think the warband looks decent and the units are very straightforward - they're just like other humans except they get lots of guns.

Well I was mostly going off the main lists, town crier lists a few fan lists to see the best balance of special stuff to have ... I hope I haven't gone overboard yet.

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I may consider dropping the price on guns for recruitment, but not late-game, so that it's a little easier to kit everyone up.

Roughly I've lowered all guns to 3/4 of their normal price (rounding up here and there).

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For the clock-work steed, I would make it tough and with inherent barding, but also perhaps unreliable seeing as it's experimental technology. For simplicity's sake you could essentially say it has an Old Battle Wound, and before each game on a roll of 1 it requires some maintenance and can't be brought to battle.

Mechanical Horse
200 gc initially / 200+D6x10 gc, Rare 12

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	8	3	0	4	4	1	2	2	4

Special Rules
Iron Horse: Confers a 5+ to the raider or +2 to any armour they already wear.

Immune to Psychology: The Mechanical Steed itself is immune to psychology and will never bolt. The rider, however, is still quite susceptible.

Immune to Poison: The Mechanical Steed itself is also immune to poison and drugs, again the rider does not also benefit from this.

Malfunctioning Mount: The Mechanical Steed is not the most reliable thing, dust from the ruins, acid rain showers, a loose screw could all cause it to be little better than dead weight. At the beginning of each scenerio roll a D6 on a roll of 1 it cannot be used in the coming battle.

Mindless Machine: The Mechanical Steed may not be a real animal but is
far less likely to gain any more insight from a battle. It never gains
any experience.

(hows that for a quick draft?)

I'm also considering taking some inspiration from Kadzik's list and replacing gunners with 'Imperial Dwarves' as that both suits the fluff and adds alittle more variety to the warband (Like Ostlands Ogres and Ruffians, Averlands Halflings). What would be your thoughts on that?

Well, I do know that in the Sartosa campaign setting, we had a player using Nuln Gunnery, and he dominated nearly every game he was in, some of which involved more than one player ganging up against him. True, he was probably the most 'competition'-geared players there (as opposed to rpg / fluff based,) but this was AFTER he agreed to have certain items and rules nerfed.

Of course, the building heavy pirate setting, with wide expanses of water, didn't really help us in fighting him.

ADVICE TO MORTIMER:

DO throw out a bunch of ideas for new items for the Nuln warband. Brain storm any new ideas with no filters on whatsoever, so we can chew on them them and give you level headed feedback.

DO NOT expect to put most of them in the final product. Brainstorming is fine, but after you've kicked about what's fair and not (based a little on what others suggest, but using your own judgment as final say), whittle the amount of items down to 2-4.

Sound good?

Sounds fine to me Styro, I'll post more detailed rules on them as I finish up with them to allow for better judgement.

Also another reference on some of the odder weapons.

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On the contrary, "Ride" is pretty essential if you actually plan on taking a mount, not only in that it makes you considerably less vulnerable to injury but also in that it opens up the whole host of riding skills. However, I'm not sure that it needs to be listed, as (I believe) it's assumed that any model who is recruited with a mount automatically knows the corresponding "Ride" skill. Besides, mounts are an integral part of the pistolier unit.

Its when you get henchmen that start off with dueling pistols, pistoliers skill and a 40gc horse that makes it a load. for 10pts, you get pistoliers which allows them to shoot every turn with 1 pistol and the abillity to ride. It is too ballsy to give an engineer themed army hardcore pistoliers and say they MUST get cheap skills simply because thats what they are like in fantasyhammers. ride has never been a big henchmen skill, and shouldnt be in mordheim. just wait for a lads roll and then its all fair game.

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Lots of warbands have lots of special rules and equipment, but for some reason people often seem to feel that humans don't deserve them. I think the warband looks decent and the units are very straightforward - they're just like other humans except they get lots of guns.

They dont get heaps of special rules for a reason. they are human, jack of all trades masters of none. You can hardly expect all the other merc players to be happy that they get a couple extra stats compared to everything this list proposes. The game needs to keep balance, and right now this list is nothing near it.

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Imperial dwarfs idea

You cannot be serious right? You are obviously very keen to play this themed list, but you cant balance it for peanuts. You should aim to keep the list unique, but fair and currently its not looking that way. Justifying the choice by averlands halflings or ostlands ogre is silly. they dont have access to a load of special rules, cheap blackpowder ect.

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experimental gear

The whole concept of the war wagon was so they could test this gear in safty. mordheim, the city of the damned, hell hole of the old world is not safe, so for "theme" there is no reason they would run off there.

Next reason why they should be excluded is they are, for the most part, one offs and it would be too expensive to make them for mordheim (except a hooked halberd, that would be cheap).

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War wagon in mordheim

funny man

EDIT: drop everything that isnt blackpowder. If they are here to experiment, then they arnt going to be using bows and crossbows.

EDIT 2: Ill write up something similar to what I am thinking might work in the context of your idea. you can do what you want with it

Perhaps its just me, but I get the feeling Mr Bretonnia isn't going to be happy with anything I produce ... perhaps this isn't the best place to try out ideas?

Mortimer wrote:

Perhaps its just me, but I get the feeling Mr Bretonnia isn't going to be happy with anything I produce ... perhaps this isn't the best place to try out ideas?

If you want lots of "grats" and "looks good" you wont learn/improve. I hated recieving comments which didnt help when I wrote my 2 own lists on this forum or another i frequent, so I do not mess around. If you want to make a list that may not be balanced, go for it and enjoy it, but if you want something that other people will like you cant do that by yourself (as you will always miss something).

As was said to me when I did mine by cianty, the best place to do this kind of thing is on the specialist games forums. good luck with your list anyways. In Australia on the GW scene we dont dick around with over powered things, so if your from the uk or usa you may take everything a bit to heart.

mrbretonnia wrote:

If you want lots of "grats" and "looks good" you wont learn/improve.

I'm not sure the "Your an idiot, oh just let me do it" approach does much more for my improvement/learning either honestly.

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I hated recieving comments which didnt help when I wrote my 2 own lists on this forum or another i frequent, so I do not mess around. If you want to make a list that may not be balanced, go for it and enjoy it, but if you want something that other people will like you cant do that by yourself (as you will always miss something).

Well basically you took all my ideas and gave me what amounted to "Don't bother ..... noob!" you put them down certainly, but didn't offer much advice on them (other than doing it yourself, in which case why do you need to tell me how not to do mine?)

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As was said to me when I did mine by cianty, the best place to do this kind of thing is on the specialist games forums. good luck with your list anyways. In Australia on the GW scene we dont dick around with over powered things, so if your from the uk or usa you may take everything a bit to heart.

I never intended to make an over powered power play list at all, yes I wanted to make a fun list with some interesting stuff in it, but it appears doing that is beard city.

I'm sorry to say Mr Bretonnia, your criticism seems neither helpful or motivating to me ... and if anything comes off as spiteful. I apologies if I have taken it the wrong way or have come off as over sensative on the issue.

Cool down guys! We are talking about a list of houserules for Mordheim, not politics or something similar . And getting angry about something on the internet is not worth it, it is much to easy to misunderstand each other if you only have some 100 words or less posts to go on.

The clockwork steed looks good (maybe except for the 2 attacks, playtest this before you include it).
Mrbretonnia has some good ideas in his posts, especially for the mancatcher, ball & chain and hook halberd. At least have a look at his proposals Mortimer, it might give you some ideas.
As for special rules in your warband: You have heard people´s advice, but in the end it is your warband. If you want to include lots of rules, do it. I still think some restraint should be exercised, but that is a matter of taste. Look through the comments, build a warband and test it in a few games. That should give you a feeling for your rules and ideas.

mrbretonnia wrote:

Its when you get henchmen that start off with dueling pistols, pistoliers skill and a 40gc horse that makes it a load. for 10pts, you get pistoliers which allows them to shoot every turn with 1 pistol and the abillity to ride. It is too ballsy to give an engineer themed army hardcore pistoliers and say they MUST get cheap skills simply because thats what they are like in fantasyhammers. ride has never been a big henchmen skill, and shouldnt be in mordheim. just wait for a lads roll and then its all fair game.

A pistolier starting with a horse and a brace of duelling pistols is going to run you (by this list) 115 gc. So for 35 gc he's really only opening up the option to ride around shooting a pistol every turn, or shooting both in one turn and then spending a turn reloading, but he still has to pay for the equipment to carry it out just like anyone else. Besides, no skill has ever been a "big henchman skill," because skills are for Heroes. That's the whole point behind a special rule, it's something they wouldn't normally have. As was pointed out beforehand - Swordsmen for normal mercs get the "Expert Swordsman" skill which would normally be unavailable to henchmen, because that suits them. A pistolier is a mounted guy with two pistols - makes perfect sense that he would have "Ride" and "Pistolier."

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They dont get heaps of special rules for a reason. they are human, jack of all trades masters of none. You can hardly expect all the other merc players to be happy that they get a couple extra stats compared to everything this list proposes. The game needs to keep balance, and right now this list is nothing near it.

Pit Fighters. Pit Fighters are a human warband that is very much melee-oriented, with more special rules than this warband. Not at all a "jack-of-all-trades" type of group. Similarly, the Stirland Bandits and Miragleans are very much ranged human bands, while Sisters, Norse, and Middenheimers are melee. It's simply not the case that humans can't specialize.

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The whole concept of the war wagon was so they could test this gear in safty. mordheim, the city of the damned, hell hole of the old world is not safe, so for "theme" there is no reason they would run off there.

Next reason why they should be excluded is they are, for the most part, one offs and it would be too expensive to make them for mordheim (except a hooked halberd, that would be cheap).

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War wagon in mordheim

funny man

EDIT: drop everything that isnt blackpowder. If they are here to experiment, then they arnt going to be using bows and crossbows.

Generally I agree that the war wagon gear should just be left out - although also to be fair mancatchers were already brought out with Black Dwarfs in BtB. I guess to me though, the ball'n'chain and hooked halberd are taking the special equipment just a tad too far - Nuln doesn't deserve a modified/improved version of everything just because they're inventors. I still maintain that a normal halberd and a normal flail are sufficient for these two pieces of equipment.

You could consider dropping all non-black powder ranged weapons as a handicap, this is the way the Gunnery School list was written as well.

Also, I don't think he ever intended to bring the war wagon itself into the warband (I can't imagine it would be much different from a stagecoach anyways), he was just using that as the reference for where he got those weapon ideas.

As an aside: were repeater guns even invented by the time of Mordheim? I know they're included in the Gunnery School list, but that was a specific setting (Nemesis Crown), which used the Mordheim rules but was actually part of the current warhammer timeline. For that reason, you may consider cutting repeater guns, but they're really cool so I'm inclined to keep 'em around.

I may very well leave out the 3 melee weapons that, or at least resign them to an optional section and allow engineers to take Halberds and Flails as an alternative.

I might also resign the grenade launching blunderbuss too, cause it sounds odd, even though its current to Warhammer.

And yes, the War Wagon was very much just going to be an alternative to Stage Coach for such scenerios and if you allowed such things.

Honestly don't know about the Repeaters invention but I'll keep them at this point anyway. So you think I should lose crossbows as well as bows?

What was others opinions of including dwarves (I was thinking a 0-3 limit, making them somewhat equivalent to Possessed's beastmen)

Sorry, I didn't even see the dwarfs suggestion.

I'm against it again because dwarfs just don't cry out "Nuln" to me. If any merc warband should get dwarfs, it would be Ostland or Ostermark because they're so close to Karak Kadrin, and regularly recieve aide from those states.

It's not that the notion of Imperial Dwarfs is unfounded or ridiculous, Empire used to have normal dwarf warriors as a standard regiment and alliances between the two are pretty common. But no other mercenaries get them, and Nuln isn't at the top of the list for warbands that deserve them in my opinion. I think the dwarf hired swords cover this base pretty well.

Right, I still feel I should just drop gunners entirely ... since they are rather indifferent to Warriors ... and feel that its suitable that even the grunts would have access to various firepower in a Nuln warband.

So Henchmen are down to Warriors (or an alternative name if they need one?) and Pistoliers.

Just to play Devil's advocate:
Nuln is very close to Kemperbad
Kemperbad has many dwarven craftsmen/engineers
Kemperbad is a major trading city
Kemperbad is quite wealthy
Kemperbad is a site of some ingenuity

Basically, call it a Kemperbad warband and I don't think people will be quite as full of complaints.

Horatius wrote:

The clockwork steed looks good (maybe except for the 2 attacks, playtest this before you include it).

The Warhammer one has D3 'impact' hits on a charge .... but perhaps thats to powerful (but than its a 200 gc+ occasionally nonpresent horse, so I dunno).

catferret wrote:

Just to play Devil's advocate:
Nuln is very close to Kemperbad
Kemperbad has many dwarven craftsmen/engineers
Kemperbad is a major trading city
Kemperbad is quite wealthy
Kemperbad is a site of some ingenuity

Basically, call it a Kemperbad warband and I don't think people will be quite as full of complaints.

I think I'll play it safe and leave the Dwarves out for now if its going to cause to much strife and gnashing of teeth.

Why not make a dwarf hired sword? Perhaps call him Imperial Dwarf Engineer/Mastersmith/Gunner or something like that. That way you can get them if you really want to - because they are perfectly justifyable fluffwise.
I think only two henchmen types are too few, most warbands have three or more. So gunners or some new henchmen should be included.

Sisters of Sigmar, Shadow Warriors and Bretonnians get away with it.

Normal mercenaries have standard warriors and two specialist henchmen, so I don't see why you couldn't leave the gunner in.