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 Charging and running

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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Charging and running   Fri 12 Apr 2013 - 5:47

Me question is if a model chooses to run, does he have to move in a straight line or can he angle his movment?
The same with charging - although I'm preety much certain that charging is done ONLY in a straight line.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Fri 12 Apr 2013 - 13:27

Charging is most direct rout so it is not a straight line. You can zig zag with it if it's avoiding obstetrical.
Running I look at the same way.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Fri 12 Apr 2013 - 14:00

So we're getting to the point:
Quote :
You can charge any opposing model if you can draw an unobstructed line from your model to the target.
It means that you can only charge via unobstructed LOS. If other models were in the way, the line is not clear and you cannot charge. I can't see a warrior making slalom through half enemy warband to get to his target shouting "excuse me!" every time. If no models or stuff are on the way (ignoring obstacles 1" high of course) you can charge. Why are you assuming that charge is not straight btw? scratch
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Fri 12 Apr 2013 - 16:26

As for running there is no restriction as to how you must move. the rule just says that the movement is doubled, you may not run if an enemy is within 8" and you may not shoot after you run.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Fri 12 Apr 2013 - 16:32

From the Core Rulebook in the section for charging...

Quote :
If your warrior wants to charge an enemy model within 4" that he can’t see (eg, because it is behind a corner) but has not been declared as hidden, he must pass an Initiative test to detect it.

Warriors can charge enemy warriors around corners so this proves that a charge does not need to be in a straight line. The charge route needs to be unobstructed but it *doesn't* need to be a straight line.

Also to your original question... there is nothing in the rules to say that moving, running or charging has to be in a straight line so therefore running or charging in a straight line is not necessary. (And VK just got in before me!)
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 1:11

hmmm... If I can draw unobstructed line to a target, the charge lane is straight neverthless - I'm using it to make a move. So generally I can make 90 degrees charge to avoid a model/models that could intercept me? Charging opponents within 4" out of LOS is a special case I think.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 1:40

Another quote from the Core Rulebook...

Quote :
A charge is like a running move, performed at double the Movement rate, but ends with the attacker moving by the most direct route into base-to-base contact with the enemy model.

The charger needs to take the most direct route. Therefore your warrior *cannot* make a 90 degrees charge to avoid model/models that could intercept. You can swerve around friendly warriors to get to an enemy as long as the warrior takes the most direct route and the route is unobstructed so that the warrior could reasonably reach the enemy.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 2:09

Well, it's all about that "most direct rout" as it's (as usual in Mordheim) imprecise and open to interpretation. For me, it would be straight line, for someone /\/\/\/\. In Warhammer or Warmachine charging line is always straight, I can't see why mordheim should be different (especially when it's based on former's ruleset).
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 2:35

If there is a wall in the way then the "most direct route" as the crow flies is a line that goes straight through the wall. However, the most direct rout for people on the ground is to the corner of the wall and then around. Substitute a statue or a cart or a warrior for that wall mentioned above and the same logic applies. Also if line of sight to the enemy warrior is blocked but that enemy warrior is within 4" then an Initiative test is required to successfully charge regardless of whether 'thing' blocking line of sight is a wall, statue, cart or another warrior.

This is not Warhammer or Warmachine. These are not regiments of warriors all moving in formation. These are individual warriors ducking and swerving and darting around a broken section of the city (or wherever). Individual warriors have a lot more freedom to move than warriors in formation. Mordheim should be different.
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catachanfrog
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 4:09

Quote :
If there is a wall in the way then the "most direct route" as the crow flies is a line that goes straight through the wall. However, the most direct rout for people on the ground is to the corner of the wall and then around.
In this scenario warrior can't draw an unobstructed line of sight to a target, so he automatically fails requirements for a charge. In fact, logically if a model can draw such line he can go straight by it. Corner charge is a special case. Really, when my model on a ground level, sees a taret on a second floor and declares a charge (assuming he has enough movement to do that), he can potentially charge into the building->go by staircase->first floor->staircase->base contact? I would hardly call it a charge. More than that if a model is ona first floor and hist target's on the ground level most direct route would be to jumpd down (or make a diving charge depending on situaion) and then make rest of charge movement. Players wont do that in most cases cause jumping is risky, and instead will go by the nearby ladder.
Straight charges are changing nothing just make things more clear and force players to better plan their movement and positioning.
Besides warhammer and warmachine (espcially) are not games of "regimented" units only. There are independent characters, single man units, monsters in warhammer and in warmachine it's even more individual since most options in the book are single models (warjacks, warcasters, solos).
I really like Mordheim and great idea behind it but I see it as an half finished product with so-called erratas (that often don't solve major problems), with so many grey areas, weird rules and balance, that gameplay by the rulebook is near impossible to me.
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 5:39

That's fine. I feel that most of the rules are quite clear and I don't understand why there would be ambiguity here. I don't have anything left to add to this discussion. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 9:45

I agree with Rational lemming here. The fact you can charge ennemies around a corner or that you cannot see (but managed to detect) is enough to support the fact you arent force to charge in straight line.

The rules are clear enough so interpretations are useless here.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Sat 13 Apr 2013 - 11:20

While I CAN understand catachanfrog's frustration with the charging rules, I don't think I have ever met anyone who PLAYED by them as written. We take the ladder or the stairs if we want to charge someone standing near the base of a ladder or staircase. (Although no one chides you for leaping over the railing if the enemy is close enough for a diving charge...)

Our direct routes allow arcs and jogs to avoid or accomodate corners of buildings, twisting stairs, friendly models and the like.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Tue 23 Apr 2013 - 10:27

[quote="catachanfrog"]
Quote :

I really like Mordheim and great idea behind it but I see it as an half finished product with so-called erratas (that often don't solve major problems), with so many grey areas, weird rules and balance, that gameplay by the rulebook is near impossible to me.

I agree, house rules and "interpretation" are important to enjoying Mordheim. To speed things up a bit, we play that you can charge anyone you can reach -- as long as you make an initiative test if you can't see the target at any point during the charge. If you fail the test, you make a normal distance move instead -- and you'll get shot or charged next turn Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Tue 23 Apr 2013 - 14:21

That is an excellent house rule!
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Tue 23 Apr 2013 - 22:54

It speeds the game up (so does ditching the rules for Hiding, by the way) at the expense of a little bit of ... sneakiness, I guess. Mostly I went with it to make the game simpler and faster for my kids. As they get a little older, we might try using the slightly more complicated 4-inch "detect the enemy" rules, as well as the Hiding rules -- although the latter seems like it could really bog down the game ("You can't shoot me or charge me, I'm HIDING!" "Sigh, fine.")

I'd be interested to hear how much other players use the Hiding rules and if they find them useful/frustrating/whatever?
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 1:28

We play you have to take the most direct line. If the most direct route requires a climbing/jumping test, you may choose to take the longer route, but you have to choose before you measure the distance. So you risk a failing charge by choosing the longer route.
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Arli
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 2:12

It actually came up in a game this past weekend. I had a Dragon Monk that wanted to do a diving charge into a beastigor. The straight line would fall outside the diving charge range (2 inches from where the model would land), but I argued that he would take the route that allowed the diving charge. Ultimately, we rolled on it and I won.

As to the hiding rules....

We normally play with them. I usually do not hide, but my opponent does and it really doesn't make a huge difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 8:46

MeanBone wrote:
I'd be interested to hear how much other players use the Hiding rules and if they find them useful/frustrating/whatever?
In my group the hiding rules are an essential balance against the strength of shooting for the non-ranged warbands.

It doesn't matter too much for low-level warbands, but once a shooty warband like Witchhunters, Marienburgers, Dwarfs, or Orcs gets off the ground then poor Posessed and Beastmen need to be able to hide as they close lest they get shot to pieces.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 9:03

We have lots of hiding as well. The game is impossible for non-shooting warbands, or warbands in a missile duel who wish to close into the range of their weapons, without it.

We do play that any warrior who can reveal a hiding warrior reveals him to all freindly warriors, which is how the rules seem written to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 16:08

Likewise. It seemed to us that a model is either hidden or not hidden, there is no hidden-to-that-model-but-not-this-one brouhaha.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Wed 24 Apr 2013 - 18:24

I agree even if RAW it is meant to be hidden to this guy or that guy it is just way too much of a fuss to deal with it that way.
Also I can't imagine that guys wouldn't point out hidden guys.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Thu 25 Apr 2013 - 8:09

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I'll be introducing the hiding rules with the kids. Gotta make some counters and print 'em up.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Thu 25 Apr 2013 - 9:12

I would be interested in seeing the hiding counters. Are there already some out there somewhere?
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Thu 25 Apr 2013 - 9:20

The ones that came in the box... Sorry no image.
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PostSubject: Re: Charging and running   Today at 3:29

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