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Myth
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PostSubject: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 17:04

I'm thinking of running Chaos Dwarfs in the next campaign. I've been a fan of them for years, big hats and all! I've been wanting to use some of my models in Mordheim but there is no list I'm completely satisfied with. I'm thinking of using the Border Town Burning list since I know that it's received the most playtesting but I have two issues with it. One issue I have is the lack of Hobgoblins in the list and the other has to do with the Slave Cart.

Now, the Slave Cart is something that I'm sure has been playtested by the people who put BTB together. It's big, it's mean, it makes the Chaos Dwarfs pretty powerful in their campaign. However my complaints about it, besides from having to learn new vehicle rules for Mordheim, is that if you use the wagon with all of its rules then you can gut another player's warband to the bone and essentially eliminate them from the game. This is based off the Mancatcher rules and the Cart's rule where you can sacrifice prisoners that are captured from the game.

I was wondering if this variant might be more feasible and better balanced for the game? It involves using the BTB list but with the following changes:

No Slave Cart or Mancatchers
No Informants
Substitute Hobgoblins for Informants.
New Hero OPtion: Hobgoblin Boss


1 Boss 40 GC
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 4 4 3 3 1 4 1 8
Animosity
Only Room Fer Me!: There can only be one Hobgoblin hero in the warband at any given time. Should a Hobgoblin roll Lads Got Talent! he is immediately killed and the Henchman group can reroll its advance.

The Chaos Dwarfs still only have a limit of 0-5 Warriors but there can be 0+ Hobgoblin henchman.

Hobgoblin Git 30 GC
M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 3 3 3 3 1 2 1 6
Animosity
Only Room Fer Me!: There can only be one Hobgoblin hero in the warband at any given time. Should a Hobgoblin roll Lads Got Talent! he is immediately killed and the Henchman group can reroll its advance.

The Hobgoblins are armed off the same list as Informants. This list is primarily swords, axes, spears, and bows.

Thoughts? Does this break the warband in any way? My attempt was to even out the warband by including Hobgoblins and taking away the wretched Cart. The Chaos Dwarf rules do not affect the Informants in their current list and still do not affect the Hobs in the new one.


Last edited by Myth on Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 22:18; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 19:08

Quote :
t's big, it's mean, it makes the Hobgoblins pretty powerful in their campaign.
Chaos Dwarfs?

Does the Hobgoblin hero replace a Chaos Dwarf or may the warband now have 5 heroes at start?

On the whole I think it would be better to just replace the informants with hobgoblins.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 22:20

Caught the typo and fixed it! Smile

Do you think the Hobgoblin should replace one of the Gaolers? The Gaolers provide the warband with a sort of elite hero but it wouldn't be too much to replace one of them with a Hobgoblin.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Mon 6 Feb 2012 - 22:40

Your imput is especially valued since you will be facing them in the campaign so feedback before things start helps. Smile

It's also why I didn't tell you my plans about the 3 foot Chaos Dwarf Titan that only costs 10 GC to field...;P
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 3:53

Chaos Dwarves rock. Few suggestions:

the price on the Hobs is way too high. 20gc is more like it- compared to a 25 gc orc, they're at -1T and -1 Ld.

Personally, I'd remove the Hobbo boss. I don't think any hobgoblins would START as heroes, although nothing says they can't become heroes later.

Here's some items to add to the list, if you're interested:

Steel Whip
Weeping Blades (to make them Sneaky Gits)

Here's some appropriate Hob skills I made in my other all-hob warband,

SNEAKY: When your Git charges an opponent that is already engaged in combat, your warrior gains +1 attack for the first round, and all of his hand-to-hand attacks have -1 Armor Save in the first round of combat. This bonus only applies when attacking with some form of daggers (normal daggers, ithilmar daggers, double dirks, etc.)

INFILTRATION
A Hobgoblin with this skill is always placed on the battlefield after the opposing warband and can be placed anywhere on the table as long as it is out of sight of the opposing warband and more than 12" away from any enemy model. If both players have models which infiltrate, roll a D6 for each, and the lowest roll sets up first.

DISCRETION
Your warrior knows when hes beat and may leave combat voluntarily. When voluntarily Escaping from Combat (Optional Rules, Mordheim Rulebook), the Hobgoblin gains +1 Leadership, and may reroll a failed Leadership test once per turn (the second result must be taken).

BACKSTABBER
Whenever the assassins attempts to charge a model than is within 4 but which he cannot see, he may reroll once the Initiative test to see if he can detect his opponent (the second result is taken as normal.) Also, if he does detect the obscured model and successfully charges him, he surprises his opponent and receives a +1 to hit him with all attacks and +1 on any Injury rolls. This bonus lasts for the first round of combat only, and only on attacks directed towards obstructed models.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 7:00

If I remember correctly, the Informers are supposed to be the Hobgoblins in the BTB warband.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Tue 7 Feb 2012 - 7:29

Well, they don't describe it as being such in the fluff. Also, they have human stats, with the sole stipulation "cannot become heroes", and cost a super-cheap 15gc. Not quite sure why.

A cowardly Ld 6 hobgoblin is far more interesting.

EDIT:
Oh, and if you decide to have the Hobbo Boss hero, often Greenskin heroes don't suffer animosity, only the henchmen do.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 21:04

Chaos dwarfs from BTB are fun to play.

With regard to mancatchers i'd just like to point out that they are 25gc for a twohanded weapon with no STR bonus. This is on a M3 dwarf with STR 3 and 1 attack and you can only get 2 Gaolers.

In my limited experience with the warband ive found you rarely get a slave. 4 games into our current campaign (2 of the games were 4 player) and im yet to bag one. You'll take far more warband members out with mass blunderbusses (blunderbai?) and if you or your opponent get within your 6" charge range, either you or your opponent are probably about to voluntarily rout.

In regard to the 'Engine of Chaos" again its 195gc and only 1 dwarf can pilot it. If you are controlling a wagon you cant shoot.

House Rules we are using for the Engine:
We are using the 'Abandoned' rule from the 'mechant Caravans' trade wagon. So if there is no one piloting the Engine when the Chaos Dwarfs rout it falls into the enemies hands. <- sucks for me but it gives my friends another chance to free thier heros (if i ever bloody capture them!).

I have also told my friends that i will not cast 'Sacrificial Ritual" outside of a game and heros will be the last dudes i sacrifice. This gives them a chance to take out the sorcerer b4 he casts it.
slaves from exploring -> henchmen ->heros ->leader

just my 2 cents... hope it helps
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 21:26

Myth wrote:

Do you think the Hobgoblin should replace one of the Gaolers? The Gaolers provide the warband with a sort of elite hero but it wouldn't be too much to replace one of them with a Hobgoblin.

The warband is based on the Dwarf Treasure Hunter model of warbands and is meant to start with 4 heroes so adding a weaker hero kind of throws it off. Either its weaker if you replace one hero with the Hobgoblin or its stronger if you allow 5 starting heroes.

You could just allow Hobgoblins to become heroes and see if one rises to the challenge with a LGT.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 21:56

That sounds better. Stick with the heroes that are involved in the list, replace Informers with Hobgoblins and give them the option to possibly become a hero through luck. Sounds good to me!

@Zargon the Black: Hail to a fellow Dawi'Zharr! Your advice was really helpful. Did you start with a mechanical suit? I'm planning on possibly ditching it at start so I can load out my warband with plenty of henchman and then use the Engineers ability to reduce the search cost for it to 10 during game. It's a little more pricey that way but I think a bigger warband at start compensates for not having a Movement 6 leader.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 8 Feb 2012 - 23:45

2 years ago i ran CDs with a sorc with the suit from the start. We got up to aroung WB rating 300 if i recall. You can only really afford to go with the engine or the suit.

The suit is awesome on paper with the armor and movement, especially if like me you rolled 'Lava Flow' as your spell. Combined with the skill 'Magical Aptitude' and a Tougness increase can see you running and charging around the board 36".

...and thats the trap. Your sorc (this also applies to the bull centaur to a degree) goes running off on his own and ends up getting smashed by weight of numbers from the enemy warband. i think its better as a later stage item.

This time around i went with the Engine. I plan to exploit the slave mechanic in the exporation phase using Rabbits feet, Tarot cards and hired swords. We dont really ban anything in our games and the only house rule we use is +1 AS in CC with shield.

starting warband:
Engine 125

Sorc 85
Blunderbuss 30

Gaoler 50
Blunderbuss 30
Helmet 10
mancatcher 25

Gaoler 50
Blunderbuss 30
Helmet 10
mancatcher 25

Theif hired Sword 30

However after 4 games and no slaves it seems a like it was not needed at the start.
We are about to start the BTB campaign with a planned 40 game limit. i think the slave mechanic could be awesome allowing you to have a fully xp'd sorc by mid campaign but you'd really want to take the skill 'extra tough' so he doesnt get assassinated.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 7:30

Another fun addition to the CDs is the double-barreled blunderbusses from Sartosa. 60gc, can fire two shots per game (either consecutively or at the same time.)
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 10:19

Zargon the Black wrote:


I have also told my friends that i will not cast 'Sacrificial Ritual" outside of a game and heros will be the last dudes i sacrifice. This gives them a chance to take out the sorcerer b4 he casts it.
slaves from exploring -> henchmen ->heros ->leader

I would say the Sacrificial Ritual should just be dropped. For XP it is way better to send the cart away as the odds of getting XP using the ritual are terrible. It also allows the sorcerer to slaughter the entire cart at once, so it could be easily used to mess with the other players. I am sure the overall effectiveness of mancatchers is highly dependent on who your enemy is. They do cut down on your number of attacks but in the long run they permanently remove enemies from the game. The survival rate from an OOA with any other weapon is about 6 times better and most single handed weapons have basically the same odds of OOA.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 13:57

aviphysics wrote:


I would say the Sacrificial Ritual should just be dropped. For XP it is way better to send the cart away as the odds of getting XP using the ritual are terrible. It also allows the sorcerer to slaughter the entire cart at once, so it could be easily used to mess with the other players.
This is not quite true. You really have to game it but taking the skills 'scorcery','scribe', and 'Mind focus' as well as the items 'familiar' and 'rabbits foot' make hitting 10+ not very hard. While you can sacrifice the whole cart its more efficient to do it 1 at a time.
aviphysics wrote:
I am sure the overall effectiveness of mancatchers is highly dependent on who your enemy is. They do cut down on your number of attacks but in the long run they permanently remove enemies from the game. The survival rate from an OOA with any other weapon is about 6 times better and most single handed weapons have basically the same odds of OOA.
Agreed. Against Noobs who are focused on winning the game instead taking a rout when its smart to will see your cart fill up quickly. but against experienced Mordheimers how hard is it to avoid two M3 Chaos Dwarfs? This isnt a 'Tainted One' with 'nurglerot' 2 swords, 'sprint' and 'expert swordsmen' lol (before the nurgle rot erratta)
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 14:08

Zargon the Black wrote:
aviphysics wrote:


I would say the Sacrificial Ritual should just be dropped. For XP it is way better to send the cart away as the odds of getting XP using the ritual are terrible. It also allows the sorcerer to slaughter the entire cart at once, so it could be easily used to mess with the other players.
This is not quite true. You really have to game it but taking the skills 'scorcery','scribe', and 'Mind focus' as well as the items 'familiar' and 'rabbits foot' make hitting 10+ not very hard. While you can sacrifice the whole cart its more efficient to do it 1 at a time.
aviphysics wrote:
I am sure the overall effectiveness of mancatchers is highly dependent on who your enemy is. They do cut down on your number of attacks but in the long run they permanently remove enemies from the game. The survival rate from an OOA with any other weapon is about 6 times better and most single handed weapons have basically the same odds of OOA.
Agreed. Against Noobs who are focused on winning the game instead taking a rout when its smart to will see your cart fill up quickly. but against experienced Mordheimers how hard is it to avoid two M3 Chaos Dwarfs? This isnt a 'Tainted One' with 'nurglerot' 2 swords, 'sprint' and 'expert swordsmen' lol (before the nurgle rot erratta)

The argument that you can get 10+ xp per a kill without to much difficulty doesn't exactly win me over. It just means that you can either use the mechanic to get ridiculous amounts of xp or to terrorize your foe. BTW how is the enemy avoiding you so successfully? Sure they have a few extra inches of movement but you should be pushing or tempting them to engage you.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 14:55

@aviphysics... in my experience it was hard for the gaolers to get into close combat with their M3. Therefore not too many enemy warriors were captured after the first few games. Generally the Bull Centaur and the Informers would enter combat because they move faster and would have mopped up before the Gaolers got into close ocmbat. Granted that was a choice of the CD player so other CD players may clump together to give their Gaolers a better chance.

This mechanic may give the chance to get a bonus increase of XP and terrorise foes (the man catchers definitely had the human warbands running scared) but I don't see any problem with that. In practice the XP is hard to come by as Zargon the Black has also confirmed and terrorising foes is a GOOD thing for the game as it keeps the tension high ('oh no I need to move my men away from the approaching gaolers' - suddenly the fear that Gaolers cause has been transposed out of the game and into the players!). Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 17:07

aviphysics wrote:
The argument that you can get 10+ xp per a kill without to much difficulty doesn't exactly win me over. It just means that you can either use the mechanic to get ridiculous amounts of xp or to terrorize your foe. BTW how is the enemy avoiding you so successfully? Sure they have a few extra inches of movement but you should be pushing or tempting them to engage you.

Sorry i wasnt clear. Sacrificial Ritual is 10+ to cast for D3 xp if your sucessful. So if you are really lucky you can turn the 6 slaves into 6D3 xp for your sorc instead of 2D3 for your warband.

@RationalLemming: Totally agree. The psychological value that a character can be captured far out weighs the in game mechanic

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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 17:16

It must depend on the people you play with. I know it would be a nightmare in my group. If I ever captured and sacrificed one of their heroes I would never hear the end of it. A couple of the guys would basically make it their mission every game to capture someone which would be almost as bad. Would really ruin some of the more creative missions we have thought up.

@RationalLemming: It sounds like your argument is that mancatchers aren't useful because the Dwarves are slow and by that logic the D in CD aren't really useful period. Having played against Dwarves I just don't think this is the case, unless maybe his warband had gotten so bad#%$ that they were wiping the floor with the other players using only a fraction of his henchmen.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 9 Feb 2012 - 17:46

@aviphysics: I suppose it must. We do play a lot of multiplayer games so if you get to big for your britches you can find yourself up against 2-3 warbands.. which is all part of the fun IMO. Currently we have a death warrant on our skaven players Assassin Adept who has turned into a combat monster... the only thing that has stopped it so far has been a Chaos Dragon in a mutiplayer but it still managed to do 3 wounds to the beast.

All i can really say is try it out. Your group will soon wise up that charging a gaoler w/a mancatcher defending an obsticle isnt the best coarse of action.

The last time i ran chaos Dwarfs my friends stole my Engine three times during the campaign selling it each time! Every time i'd buy it they'd make it there mission to steal it. No Engine no capture for the mancatchers and 98gc for the warband stealing it. This time around it sits safely at the rear of the table guarded by my hired swords but skills such as 'Hunch' and 'Infiltrate' still put it in danger.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Fri 10 Feb 2012 - 3:52

@aviphysics... he did have an uber Bull Centaur that had become his leader and was a serious contender to kill the Scion of Chaos. Coupled with extreme luck with his basic informer henchmen his CD warband did do quite alright without the D.

Anyway sorry for being OT, Myth. I'm keen to hear your final configuration for the warband list and how it fairs during your games.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 29 Feb 2012 - 20:42

The final configuration! Sorry I haven't been too responsive but real life responsibilities got to me.

I'm starting with a question: Would the Sorcerer qualify for getting pirate skills from the Sartosa setting? Von Kurst wants to have us use them in the campaign and we weren't sure if the BTB Chaos Dwarfs gained access to them.

I decided to do the following changes to the Hobgoblins that I think makes them fair. I've heard from people about the advantages the Informers give the warband and with all due respect ot the creators of BTB I am not throwing them away because I hate them but rather I'd like to have the option for Hobgoblins and the possibility in the future of a hobgoblin hero. SO! I'm changing their price to 25 GC. This represents their stats as well as their ability to become a hero.

The heroes stay the same at the beginning. One Sorcerer, One Bull Centaur, Two Gaolers. This leaves it open for another CD to be a hero or possibly a Hobgoblin (unless two CDs get LGT through XP)

As for slaves...I'm not taking the wagon. It's just not practical to me. I'm also not using the Mancatchers. I know people have said that this rule really isn't a factor in the game but after speaking with some friends it's just best to eliminate it. My warband list will follow shortly.
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Wed 29 Feb 2012 - 21:13

Here is my somewhat final list for tomorrow. Don't know if I"ll ditch the Brace of Pistols to possibly free up some more money to hire a new Black Dwarf. I have 7 people, 3 of them Hobgobs!


Ahrimand Ohrzmund Sorcerer 85 crowns
Brace of Pistols 30 Sword 10

Loken the Great Beast Bull Centaur 100 c
Two Maces 6 gc

Gaoler Tarvitz 50 c
Blunderbuss 30c mace 3c

Gaoler Ashtok 50 c
Blunderbuss 30c mace 3c

Hobgoblin Archers (Gant, Quark, Rom) 60 c
Bows 30 c Extra daggers 6c
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Thu 1 Mar 2012 - 11:27

Quark? Rom? Someone's been watching Deep Space Nine... lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Fri 2 Mar 2012 - 4:20

Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Alternate Chaos Dwarf Idea   Sat 3 Mar 2012 - 12:55

And what's wrong with that? Very Happy I mean...hobgoblins do follow the Rules of Acquisition! Or mine do at least.
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