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DRD1812
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PostSubject: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 18:11

For the Hammer of Sigmar spell, do you roll two dice to wound after every hit, or do you roll two types after a successful wound, similar to the Incredible Force rule for a goblin's ball and chain? Here's the spell text for convenience:

The wielder gains +2 Strength in hand-to-hand combat and all hits he inflicts cause double
damage (eg, 2 wounds instead of 1). The Priest must test each shooting phase he wants to use
the Hammer.

Also in question: how does the priest "test each shooting phase?" Does he take a leadership test? Does he have to cast the spell again?
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 5 Jan 2011 - 21:04

The wounding works like this: for each hit, you roll to wound as normal and then your opponent rolls to save as normal. For each failed save you cause *two* wounds so on a 1 wound model this would mean two injury rolls. If they had two wounds they would lose two wounds and then roll once on the injury table.

In my circle we have always interpreted the 'test each phase' thing to mean you make a casting test each turn but this *doesn't* count as casting a new prayer, so you may cast another prayer if you wish.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 1:21

We had always played it as Lord 0 outlines until the last campaign when it was argued that the spell states each hit causes 2 wounds. The player argued he should be able to roll 2 dice to wound for every hit. Since he rarely got into combat we didn't argue it.

As for the test we play that its a Ld test like the other spells that must be maintained.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 6 Jan 2011 - 2:57

In my book it says each hit does double *damage* rather than double wounds, but if he wants to interpret it like that, I would be more than happy to let him Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Tue 8 Mar 2011 - 18:20

I have also a question about this spell.

1) does a hammer APPEAR in the hand of the caster?

or

2) does he ENCHANT a hammer he already has?

the rules are not clear to me in this aspect...
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 9 Mar 2011 - 5:14

Dahag wrote:
I have also a question about this spell.

1) does a hammer APPEAR in the hand of the caster?

or

2) does he ENCHANT a hammer he already has?

the rules are not clear to me in this aspect...

I'll stick my neck out on this one as well.
1) The fluff implies that. The rules do not. The rules are--
Quote :
The wielder gains +2 Strength in hand-to-hand combat and all hits he inflicts cause double damage (eg, 2 wounds instead of 1). The Priest must test each shooting phase he wants to use the Hammer.

We play that ALL of the caster's attacks are +2 S (since that is what it says).

2) He doesn't have to be armed with a hammer at all, since what he gains is S.

In another thread the whole entry is quoted, but the first sentence is written in italics in my rule book (as is the first sentence in every spell/prayer). This sentence is not part of the rule, it is the fluffy description of the spell or its effect.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 9 Mar 2011 - 8:10

thanks for your answer.

Von Kurst wrote:

1) The fluff implies that. The rules do not.

Well, it's not only the fluff text that implies this. For the rules state in the last sentence: "... wants to USE the hammer". This strongly indicates that it is an actual ("magical") weapon. But maybe what they mean is "... if he wants to keep up the prayer". But it's always difficult to assume they do not actually mean what they say....

So according to your interpretation I assume then that the spell work likes this:

* The priest gains +2S to his profile (unfortunately he can't learn knife fighter lol) and every successful wound that his attacks cause is doubled if the enemy fails his save rolls.
* The weapon(s) he is using keep their features.
* The priest's attacks still cause critical hits (if he uses a sword it's the bladed weapons crit table etc....)

Do you (all) agree?

------------------------------------------

But this brings up some questions.

So if he carries a DHW and casts the prayer he hits at +4 S?
What happens if he lands a critical hit that causes 2 wounds (e.g. with a sword) while the prayer is active? Does this critical hit then cause 4 wounds?



I'm sorry to say but I think this spell is rather poorly worded...

btw. With this prayer, the priest could fight unarmed and still do pretty well Very Happy (attacks at S4 or more, causing double wounds...)
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 9 Mar 2011 - 15:13

Dahag wrote:
thanks for your answer.
Well, it's not only the fluff text that implies this. For the rules state in the last sentence: "... wants to USE the hammer". This strongly indicates that it is an actual ("magical") weapon. But maybe what they mean is "... if he wants to keep up the prayer". But it's always difficult to assume they do not actually mean what they say....

You are welcome.

As to the hammer question. Your emphasis changes the quote. The words are "wants to use the Hammer." Slightly confusing perhaps but since the name of the spell is 'the Hammer of Sigmar', it seems a smaller leap of semantics to infer that 'the Hammer' refers to the spell than to an actual 'hammer'.

The spell, like other parts of the rule book is abysmally written. The price we pay for playing a tabletop game.

Dahag wrote:
But this brings up some questions.
So if he carries a DHW and casts the prayer he hits at +4 S?
What happens if he lands a critical hit that causes 2 wounds (e.g. with a sword) while the prayer is active? Does this critical hit then cause 4 wounds?

Well if this is a problem the FAQ about spells not being able to cause critical wounds could be invoked. We tend to ignore that in the case of profile buffs or magical weapons.

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Wed 9 Mar 2011 - 17:18

Dahag wrote:
But this brings up some questions.
So if he carries a DHW and casts the prayer he hits at +4 S?
What happens if he lands a critical hit that causes 2 wounds (e.g. with a sword) while the prayer is active? Does this critical hit then cause 4 wounds?

Von Kurst wrote:
Well if this is a problem the FAQ about spells not being able to cause critical wounds could be invoked. We tend to ignore that in the case of profile buffs or magical weapons.

So if I understand you correctly you mean that the caster's physical weapon(s) lose the ability to land critical hits? Assuming you do, I do not agree Smile A spell can't critical hits but a physical weapon can - even if it is enhanced by a spell. To the same extent as it keeps its other features (like parry, concussion etc...)


To my understanding the spell can only be interpreted in two ways:

A) A weapon appears with the described properties. As a spell can't cause critical hits, a summoned weapon cannot either (except explicitly stated otherwise). So no critical hits in this case.

B) The priest or the weapon(s) are enchanted. In both cases the weapon will still cause critical hits as it is still a physical weapon.


So is it A or B (as your group plays it)?

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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 3:01

We play B. I just brought the Spells can't cause crits up in a fit of madness. Seems to have passed now.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 10:40

oh i see Smile now it makes suddenly more sense to me. i was confused as it seemed to me that you are endorsing both variants at the same time ... Smile

btw: i just found a correspondig faq which states that hammer of sigmar INDIRECTLY can cause critical hits:

Quote :
Q: Can spells cause critical hits?
A: Directly, no. Indirectly, yes. The reference on page 56 to spells not causing critical hits specifically refers to spells that cause direct damage such as Word of Pain. These spells never cause critical hits. However, if a warrior is benefiting from a spell that enhances his ability to fight, such as The Hammer of Sigmar, he will be able to cause critical hits with these attacks.

and to the doubling question (critical hits while "hammer of sigmar" active):

in optional critical hits "bladestorm" it states (rulebook, p.117):

Quote :
Remember that, as with other
critical hits, if an attack causes multiple
wounds for other reasons as well, you choose
the highest number of wounds.

so you can choose either 2 wounds from blade storm or 2 from the spell. tough choice lol!

but seriously: so not potentially 4 wounds with one hit. would have been too strong anyway...
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 20:58

Good information to know! Thanks for pointing that out. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Thu 10 Mar 2011 - 22:06

you're most welcome. thank you for helping me out on this in the first place Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 19:26

the spell description says "The priest must test each shooting phase he wants to use the Hammer".

What happens if he fails the test?

1) The spell disappears and must be cast anew (next round), which means he can't cast another spell that round.

2) The spell stays until the end of the game but is just only "active" in those turns in which the priest successfully tested.

3) any other variant which i overlooked...
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 20:31

The answer is in the Lesser Magic spell Sword of Rezhebel. It reads, "Take a Leadership test at the beginning of each of the wizard's own turns. If the test fails the sword disappears."

I would simply treat the hammer spell in exactly the same way, testing at the beginning of turn rather than in the shooting phase. Since the hammer spell's wording is so frustratingly vague, I just play it the same way as the sword. Meaning you can attempt to cast it again the same turn it disappears.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 20:41

My argument is, if it fails at the start of the Shooting Phase, you may attempt to recast it that same shooting phase.

The difference? It's after charges are declared. You may have charged the Troll thinking you had +2 S, only to have it die on you, heh heh heh.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 21:30

ok, so if I understand you correctly, you both agree that the hammer disappears if the test fails. I'd say too as it makes more sense than having a permanent spell (once successfully cast, that is) that is switched on and off like a light bulb...

another matter: it was discussed before but I would like to have some more opinions on that, if I may:

Ld-test or difficulty roll to keep the spell up?

von kurst said:
Quote :
As for the test we play that its a Ld test like the other spells that must be maintained.

But I only found the sword of rezhebel that must be kept up in a similar manner. so we don't have much other spells to compare it with in that respect, do we? At least what the spells of the core rule book are concerned.

So what do you think: Ld-Test or normal difficulty roll? Compared with the Sword of Rezhebel I'd say Ld but as it's only one spell the comparison isn't really "statistically significant" Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 22:09

Well, I think it's apples and oranges. The Prayer tests at the beginning of the Shooting phase, using the Difficultly, while the Sword tests on Ld at the start of the Recovery phase. The tactics and Academic skills change based on the person.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Fri 18 Mar 2011 - 23:10

StyrofoamKing wrote:
Well, I think it's apples and oranges. The Prayer tests at the beginning of the Shooting phase, using the Difficultly, while the Sword tests on Ld at the start of the Recovery phase.

ok i see, but it does not actually say that Hammer of Sigmar is tested by using difficulty (?)

Quote :
The tactics and Academic skills change based on the person.

what do you mean by this?
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Mon 21 Mar 2011 - 15:11

@Styro: That's a good point about charging. Enough so to change my opinion on how to play it. Still, since we're agreed that the wizard can attempt to recast regardless of
whether his spell failed in the Shooting phase or the start of turn, it seems close to functionally identical. In either case, I would probably charge the troll and hope to recast. Very Happy

@Dahag: I would call it a leadership test, and I'll explain why. If you have to reroll the casting difficulty, it implies that that's your spell for the turn. Similar buffing spells like Clubba on the Orcs list and Sword of Rezhebel get around that problem in different ways, sure, but neither makes your reroll. If it's a Ld test, it's clear that you can cast a different spell once you pass your Ld test or the same spell if you fail.

Besides, it makes more sense from a difficulty perspective. The warlock, the warrior priest, and the matriarch all start with Ld 8. Making the hammer and the sword poof at the same difficulty makes more sense fluff-wise. Imagine the highly disciplined Warrior Priest or Sigmarite Matriarch LESS LIKELY to maintain a spell than the lowly warlock.
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Mon 21 Mar 2011 - 17:49

thank you for your opinion. Strangely enough, the German rulebook says "Komplexitätswurf" when it comes to explain how to maintain the spell. Komplexitätswurf means literally "complexity roll". I guess that means that it should be a difficulty-roll.

Can these translations be trusted (enough)? But why does the German rulebook mentions a detail which the English one doesn't? *sigh*

And it was a problem indeed. One of the players stated that this test counts as casting a spell. I hope I can convince him otherwise... I mean: why should it cast as casting a spell? If it were so, the test would not need to be mentioned at all as he would in fact just be recast each round...
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PostSubject: Re: Hammer of Sigmar Spell   Mon 21 Mar 2011 - 20:39

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that maintaining these buffing spells DOES NOT count as your spell for the turn. Way back at the top of the thread Lord0 even mentioned he plays Hammer of Sigmar as a difficulty roll but does not count it as the spell for the turn. Seems like everyone on this board is agreed on the point.

I mean, Hammer of Sigmar certainly isn't any better than Clubba or Sword of Rhezebel. There's no reason to make it emphatically worse.
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