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PostSubject: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 17:11

Hi guys!

I am very happy that you guys have shown so much enthusiasm in making our little project work and I thank every one of you (also those who won't be able to make it but have shown great support) for this.

I am planning a number of losely interconnected scenarios that will (if possible) pit the forces of good versus evil. I don't expect us to have time to play all of them in the 2 days that we have, but it is good to be prepared Smile

I put together 12 House Rules so far, based on my experiences. Please read through them and tell me what you think. I did not include the special "cover" rule... simply because I could not find the thread anymore Shocked I will however try to find it and add it to the list. I apologise for the length of the list.


Guidelines and House Rules


1. Referee. A referee will be named for each game if possible. The referee’s task is to make impartial decisions in situations where players are having trouble coming to an agreement. The referee’s decisions are final and cannot be changed. If there are no free players available to fill the position of referee, the event organiser will be referee (i.e. Admin Tom).

2. Got paint? Please have all your models glued and painted. No undercoated minis, no missing limbs etc. Material to fix models that might have suffered during the trip will be provided.

3. What you see is what you get. The WYSIWYG rule applies. Please have the models reflect the equipment they are meant to carry as accurately as possible. This concerns weapons above all: if a warrior is equipped with a morning star, this cannot be represented by a lance wielding model! If you do not have the appropriate model you will not be allowed to field this warrior. Exceptions are helmets, heavy and light armour (not shields or bucklers) and other pieces of equipment that are difficult to represent accurately (ropes, healing herbs etc.). You are required to inform all players of non-visible equipement just before the game begins.

4. Deployment. At the beginning of each game, warriors can only deploy above ground level if they pass an initiative test. If the test is failed they must deploy on the ground as close to the intended deployment spot as possible.

5. Warband list. Please do not forget that you need a warband list to play! Don’t forget it at home (n’est-ce-pas, Tortiou?). If you are playing a fresh warband, please do not exceed a credit of 500 gold crowns (reminder: 501> 500).

6. Warband Rating. You can bring experienced warbands to the event. Please have the warband ratings accurately calculated and ready beforehand so that we can easily make even teams.

7. Experience. There will be experience awarded between the games and the post battle sequence will be held as normal. So your warriors have a chance of getting level ups. Yay!

8. No new recruitment. During the whole event no new warriors can be purchased. Losses can however be replaced in order to keep the warbands from shrinking. New equipment may be purchased as usual if it can comply with the WYSIWYG rule.

9. Spirit. Please play within the spirit of the scenarios! Players who take absolutely no risks and expect their opponents to do so will be forced to change their tactics or forfeit a round.

10. Generosity. Minor inaccuracies always happen in tabletop games. Distances (e.g. charge, shooting range etc.) that fall short by no more than 1mm will be decided by dice roll. Extract from the Warhammer 7th Ed. Rulebook Errata: “Players are encouraged to play in the spirit of cooperation and should be prepared to allow some slight repositioning of units rather than spoil a good game. In doubt be generous… or roll a dice to decide when things are close.

11. Mistakes. Each player is allowed one major mistake per game (e.g. forgetting to take action in a phase). No more, no less. A player is allowed to adjust his mistake only if the opponent has not yet started his shooting phase (the opponents movements can be “rewinded”, the shooting sticks).

12. Official warbands. Please bring only official warbands to the games (note: you can still bring your super well painted Dark Elves just to show off!). These are as follows: Averlanders, Ostlanders, Marienburgers, Reiklanders, Middenheimers, Kislevites, Carnival of Chaos, Beastmen Raiders, Possessed, Dwarf Treasure Hunters, Orcs and Goblins, Sisters of Sigmar, Whitch Hunters, Skaven and Undead. You may bring as many warbands as you wish.

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 17:48

Hey Tom, Great list of rules. I like them a lot, and I'm very curious to see what the other experienced Mordheimers have to add/edit to it.

Admin Tom wrote:
I did not include the special "cover" rule... simply because I could not find the thread anymore Shocked

Please post the link, or even better put it on your blog Wink I was looking for that hilarious picture a month or so ago, and couldn't find it anywhere.

Hopefully I'll come to the second annual TBM Fight =(
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 18:54

Thanks Ash. Yeah I'll do that... I can't believe I can't find that thread anymore...

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 19:20

Admin Tom wrote:
Thanks Ash. Yeah I'll do that... I can't believe I can't find that thread anymore...

Does this forum automatically delete threads that have been inactive for a certain amount of time?

I don't think that thread exists any more (at least google doesn't know about it...) I had google search this forum for anything that had the words "model", "in" and "cover" and only 4-5
pages came up...

http://www.google.com/search?q=site:boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com+model+in+cover&hl=en&filter=0

=/
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 20:01

Ashton wrote:

Does this forum automatically delete threads that have been inactive for a certain amount of time?

It should not. I deactivated that function. I don't get it. There HAS to be a system that deletes "old" stuff, there's just no other explaination...

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 21:05

Do you still have that picture lying around? Wink I giggle everything I think about it lol.

....

*giggle*
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Tue 8 Apr 2008 - 23:11

Great that you posted the "event-rules".

Just one point, don't you think it might be a little unfair if everyone can show up with experienced warbands?
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 1:04

Admin Tom wrote:

1. Referee. A referee will be named for each game if possible. The referee’s task is to make impartial decisions in situations where players are having trouble coming to an agreement. The referee’s decisions are final and cannot be changed. If there are no free players available to fill the position of referee, the event organiser will be referee (i.e. Admin Tom).

Cool...
Admin Tom wrote:

2. Got paint? Please have all your models glued and painted. No undercoated minis, no missing limbs etc. Material to fix models that might have suffered during the trip will be provided.

Cool...

Admin Tom wrote:

3. What you see is what you get. The WYSIWYG rule applies. Please have the models reflect the equipment they are meant to carry as accurately as possible. This concerns weapons above all: if a warrior is equipped with a morning star, this cannot be represented by a lance wielding model! If you do not have the appropriate model you will not be allowed to field this warrior. Exceptions are helmets, heavy and light armour (not shields or bucklers) and other pieces of equipment that are difficult to represent accurately (ropes, healing herbs etc.). You are required to inform all players of non-visible equipement just before the game begins.

Hmmm ...I agree in principle ...but since Im mainly into gaming and not modelling ...and have zero conversion experience ...I have to say Im against this ! (where do I find dwarf figures w. dual-dwarfaxes, crossbow, blunderbuss and a shield?)

Admin Tom wrote:

4. Deployment. At the beginning of each game, warriors can only deploy above ground level if they pass an initiative test. If the test is failed they must deploy on the ground as close to the intended deployment spot as possible.

a bit tough on dwarfes ...but ok I guess...

Admin Tom wrote:

5. Warband list. Please do not forget that you need a warband list to play! Don’t forget it at home (n’est-ce-pas, Tortiou?). If you are playing a fresh warband, please do not exceed a credit of 500 gold crowns (reminder: 501> 500).

6. Warband Rating. You can bring experienced warbands to the event. Please have the warband ratings accurately calculated and ready beforehand so that we can easily make even teams.

I dont know ...I mean I dont know about you guys...but I would hate to be up against a band that have played 20 more games than me ...(I have played 8 or so ). IMO we should either start out fresh ...or perhaps fresh+

Admin Tom wrote:

7. Experience. There will be experience awarded between the games and the post battle sequence will be held as normal. So your warriors have a chance of getting level ups. Yay!

Cool - would have it no other way ....

Admin Tom wrote:

8. No new recruitment. During the whole event no new warriors can be purchased. Losses can however be replaced in order to keep the warbands from shrinking. New equipment may be purchased as usual if it can comply with the WYSIWYG rule.

Ehhh ....why? Sucks to start a fresh band of Possessed then ...no? (Im also tired of fighting warbands of 3 models...but isnt this a bit harsh fix?)

Admin Tom wrote:

9. Spirit. Please play within the spirit of the scenarios! Players who take absolutely no risks and expect their opponents to do so will be forced to change their tactics or forfeit a round.

10. Generosity. Minor inaccuracies always happen in tabletop games. Distances (e.g. charge, shooting range etc.) that fall short by no more than 1mm will be decided by dice roll. Extract from the Warhammer 7th Ed. Rulebook Errata: “Players are encouraged to play in the spirit of cooperation and should be prepared to allow some slight repositioning of units rather than spoil a good game. In doubt be generous… or roll a dice to decide when things are close.

11. Mistakes. Each player is allowed one major mistake per game (e.g. forgetting to take action in a phase). No more, no less. A player is allowed to adjust his mistake only if the opponent has not yet started his shooting phase (the opponents movements can be “rewinded”, the shooting sticks).

Sure...

Admin Tom wrote:

12. Official warbands. Please bring only official warbands to the games (note: you can still bring your super well painted Dark Elves just to show off!). These are as follows: Averlanders, Ostlanders, Marienburgers, Reiklanders, Middenheimers, Kislevites, Carnival of Chaos, Beastmen Raiders, Possessed, Dwarf Treasure Hunters, Orcs and Goblins, Sisters of Sigmar, Whitch Hunters, Skaven and Undead. You may bring as many warbands as you wish.

Sure..., but what about hired swords, spc. characters and equipment ??
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 4:07

Disallowing warbands to hire new warriors is crazy, Tom! Not all warbands are designed to consist of 8 warriors which are only upgraded with better weapons throughout a campaign. This will result in all players starting with unequipped warriors just to have a starting number of 12 or 15 warriors. Or worse: everyone starting with maxed-out experienced warbands. Warbands like Da Mob and Beastmen NEED to be able to purchase new Goblins and Ungors throughout a campaign. Is this an attempt to tone down the brokeness of Skaven?

Granted, I'm not participating so I might as well shut up but I think this is a huge drawback for some (most?) warbands and taking away a lot of the game.

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 6:59

@ Ash: I have been looking for the pic but I think I have in on my comp in vienna. I'll re-post that thing one day Smile

@ Cianty: Just because you are not coming, that does not mean you cannot give your opinion! Don't worry, as I said, I am happy to read all of your feedback and I was hoping to hear different opinions.

@ "WYSIWYG":

Boehm, I understand your problem 100%. One player from my group plays dwarfs, and I have converted/painted a lot of models for him. But in the interest of playability, I still strongly urge you to do all you can to have representative models. Please. It is for all of us. I don't think anyone wants to have to remember your warband sheet by heart... just as you don't want to have to remember ours.
Here's how I dealt with this problem for the dwarfs (does not require a lot of conversion!): Stick everything on their backs (shields, crossbows, extra weapons...). Who said they have to carry everything in their hands? Smile
I guess we can all be a little flexible for WYSIWYG on your dwarfs, but since everyone is respecting this rule, please do so too, as best you can.

@ "Experienced Warbands":

Wow, wow, wow geek I had expected you guys to be happy about that! Because it means that you can take your actual warband "as it is" without having to start afresh.

OK, I have no problem with playing one of my unused warbands.

But you know, my warbands are not that experienced either!
My Witch hunters have played 4 games only. My orcs maybe 6. My possessed around 8.

Maybe someone has an idea how we can allow a bit experienced warbands to play because it would be a shame for me to play Reiklanders when I have a perfectly good and better looking band of Whunters in my suitcase... I am open for ideas.

@ "New Recruitment".

No cianty, I am not trying to compensate the brokeness of Skaven. I just thought this rule would make sense, because if we are allowed to buy new units, I reckoned, this would result in everyone fielding unpained miniatures or halflings as possessed the second day.

Let's make one thing clear: i have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with new recruitments, if you can field decent models for your new recruits. So if you guys plan ahead, paint the models you will recruit in the future (i actually did that) and then just "add" them to the warband when the time and money comes: that is 100% fine by me.

Shall we change the House rule to: "Recruitment allowed, under the condition that WYSIWYG is respected"?

@ Hired Swords & Equipement:

I would thend towards allowing hired swords. Please give me your thoughts on that.

@ Critical Hits:

We will use the regular critical hit table. My personal request. I hope you are all OK with that.

Let me know what you guys think! Smile

Talk to you soon and thanks again for your feedback!
Admin Tom

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 8:21

"New Recruitment"

That way I think it's best. Everyone can recruit new warriors as long as he has painted models for them.

"hired swords"

Only official ones, but I don't see why we shouldn't allow them at all.

"critical hits"

That's ok with me, also I love playing with house- and unofficial rules, it should be better to limit ourselves on the core rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 9:05

@ Ash and Admin Tom: are you talking about this??

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/do-you-use-additional-rules-t17.htm

cyclops

As for the rest, I agree with Tom's house rules. I think we should be able to hire more warriors, but they should be painted and WYSIWYG-equipped.
As for the experienced VS noob warbands, IMO all warbands should be allowed, whether they have 20+ games behind them or just a few. And if the warband rating ratios are too high, then the underdog rules would help the starting or unexperienced warbands.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 10:07

Tortiou wrote:


As for the rest, I agree with Tom's house rules. I think we should be able to hire more warriors, but they should be painted and WYSIWYG-equipped.

hmmm ...well notice the dwarven noble in my avatar ...he currently have a crossbow, blunderbuss & 2x dwarven axes ...would that be ok or would I have to get another model?? (which Im not too keen on - and where would I get the bits too "glue on" ...and where?? )

Tortiou wrote:

As for the experienced VS noob warbands, IMO all warbands should be allowed, whether they have 20+ games behind them or just a few. And if the warband rating ratios are too high, then the underdog rules would help the starting or unexperienced warbands.

OK, just keep in mind that underdog bonus doesnt help you much if you get all your guys going OOA and dying ...but perhaps we should just do a check to see if there actually is any problem or not?! ...I just know that even though I have only played 8 games I would count on a starter band to have much of a chance vs. my guys ...Also how do we calculate underdog bonus in multiplayer games??

As to official or unofficial hired swords ...does the rules published under articles on the specialist games count as official or not? (there is quite a lot of both HS and warbands there!)

As to houserules themselves ....

I would still like to advocate a +1 to armour save ...if wielding a shield in closecombat ...(not that I should personally worry much since dwarves have a pretty nice 2weapon combo with 2 dwarven axes!)
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 12:13

Good work Tom, I'm okay with all your propositions Smile

Admin Tom wrote:
@ Hired Swords & Equipement:

I would thend towards allowing hired swords. Please give me your thoughts on that.

@ Critical Hits:

We will use the regular critical hit table. My personal request. I hope you are all OK with that.

I'm agree if we can include hired swords, but only those on rulebook, Mordheim Annual Review 2002 and Empire in Flames Smile
No matter with critical hit table, I like the advanced rules too but we think the regular rules are more fair Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 13:42

New Recruits - I don't see the point in this rule at all since "painted models only" and WYSIWYG are both always in effect. Who would have ever thought it'd be okay to recruit new warriors that do not meet the other restrictions? If you want to make it clear then just add it to the "painted" and WYSIWYG rules to explicitly include both starting warbands and new recruits.

Hired Swords - There are a lot of Hired Swords out there and even those published on the Specialist Games website via Fanatic Online are not balanced (or even ever tested) so sticking to Rulebook, Annual and EiF is advisable. In addition, if anyone wishes the Clan Skryre Rat Ogre HS could be allowed, I mean GW even produced a miniature for that.

Experienced warbands - Bear in mind that warband rating is a very bad indicator for a warband's power level since it does not factor in Serious Injuries and crazy equipment like Gromril armour and artefacts. If you want to have games with more developed warbands why not give every player 750 gc to start and/or 10 Experience points to give to their heroes... something like this, you know.

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 14:08

Boehm wrote:
notice the dwarven noble in my avatar ...he currently have a crossbow, blunderbuss & 2x dwarven axes ...would that be ok or would I have to get another model??

I said we would be "flexible", not "contorsionists" Smile

Sorry Boehm, but that is too much of a stretch. I can see a second axe hidden under the cloak but not a blunderbuss AND a crossbow!

You have 2 choices:
1) convert the gun to a blunderbuss and stick a crossbow on the mini's back (I have a spare crossbow that I am willing to give you for free if necessary).

2) Change your warband list to: 2xAxe + 1x Pistol.

Please do not take this personally, although you might feel like I am stubborn, I really REALLY am not. I am certainly not trying to bug you, but the rule applies for everyone. If we start making excuses now, no one will take that rule seriously, and it DOES spoil the game, believe it or not.

I would therefore greatly appreciate if you could find a way of complying with WYSIWYG. You have plenty of time until july to convert a tiny bit here and a tiny bit there. It's part of the hobby, it's fun and it gives you a customised warband that no one else has! Smile

Thank you for your understanding!

Boehm wrote:

I would still like to advocate a +1 to armour save if wielding a shield in closecombat

Ok you have mentioned this twice. Now I have to ask: what put the idea in your head that a shield does not give +1 to the AS in close combat?!

It does give this bonus and always have! Very Happy Rejoice Boehm!

Lanyssa wrote:

we can include hired swords, but only those on rulebook, Mordheim Annual Review 2002 and Empire in Flames

OK. That's settled then.

@ Experienced warbands:

Like Tortiou I think we should really allow experienced warbands on the field.
But I also agree with the general feeling that should be some sort of mechanism that prevents people form bringing their 20+ games-heavy-warband-of-mass-destruction.

Therefore I suggest 2 things:

1) A warband rating limit. We should agree on the maximum rating a warband can have in order to play. I suggest a limit of 170.

2) The Underdog Rule: we will sum up all warband ratings from the allied warbands of each of the 2 teams. The difference will be used to determine the XP bonus awarded. And this bonus will go to ALL warbands of the "underdog team".

Thoughts?

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 14:14

As Cianty said, warband rating is a bad indicator. I am aware of that.

Since argumenting back and forth will not necessarily bring any decisions, I will add a poll to this thread. PLEASE only vote if you are taking part in the event. If there are more than 8 votes (Pfreck and Tag, you are the extra 2 in case you are coming), the vote will be void and will be repeated.

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it is part of mordheim that warbands are different. And it will NEVER be 100% balanced! This is not warhammer, so you have the RPG element that makes warbands different from one another. And I think that is interesting even if there are gromril weapons on one side and not on the other... so what?
Let's not get too much obsessed with balancing.

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 15:36

Boehm is talking about a house rule that makes shields better. The rule comes from the current Warhammer edition and since it is written down clearly in the BTB Optional Rules chapter (sorry, Wink ) I can copy-paste it here:

Border Town Burning, Optional Rules wrote:
This section describes a simple additional rule for shields, which increased the diversity of weapon combinations a lot in our games while also balancing the power of fully mounted warbands. The rules are based on the shield rules from the current edition of Warhammer Fantasy and provide a very effective alternative to more complex attempts of making armour more useful.

shields
Hand-weapon: An unmounted warrior armed with a single-handed weapon (sword, spear, hammer, etc.) and a shield gets an additional +1 bonus in hand-to-hand combat. Note that this applies to unmounted warriors in hand-to-hand combat only, since they can combine their shield and weapon with a high flexibility to create a defensive wall against their enemy’s blows in close combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 15:49

Aaaah ok! Thanks for clarifying Cianty!

Yes that rule makes a lot of sense! I like it a lot. Yes, why not! let's use that! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 15:55

I vote "no".

Because I'm planning to use a new warband, I have only experienced warbands with rating > 200 (more than 12 games each), and it will be not funny to play with them (some of them are very powerful, even if they don't have a "great" rating, as cianty said, they're just over-stuffed Embarassed )
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 18:00

Border Town Burning, Optional Rules wrote:
shields
Hand-weapon: An unmounted warrior armed with a single-handed weapon (sword, spear, hammer, etc.) and a shield gets an additional +1 bonus in hand-to-hand combat.

Clarification Question: This +1 is applied to armor save? (while in hand to hand)

EDIT: to continue:

Mordheim Rule Book wrote:

SHIELD
...
ARMOUR SAVING THROW
Save: A model with a shield has a basic save of 6 on a D6.

so are you replacing that with a +1? so light armor and a shield = saving throw of 5+?
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 22:56

Whoops...I voted yes...so please delete one of those.

I like the rules however.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 23:44

@Ashton:

The normal rule for shields still applies.
So you alsways have a armour save of 6+, which is +1 in close combat, if you're using a single-handed weapon and you're on foot,
so the combination light armour, shield and sword for example gives you a 5+ save in general and a 4+ save in close combat.
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 1:03

Admin Tom wrote:

Boehm wrote:

I would still like to advocate a +1 to armour save if wielding a shield in closecombat

Ok you have mentioned this twice. Now I have to ask: what put the idea in your head that a shield does not give +1 to the AS in close combat?!

I am aware that a shield confers a +1 AS ...I was talking about an ADDITIONAL +1 AS only appliable in closecombat (i.e. NOT vs. ranged or magical attacks!)

The reason Im advocating this houserule is that ....

1) how often do you prioritize buying light armour ?
2) how often do you choose a shield+handweapon over say 2 handweapons?
3) how often do you choose doublehanded weapons or "other" weapons with a high armourpiercing ability i.e. handguns anyone ? (probably not so often since armour IMO is not much used due to too high cost and most guys in CC have STR4+ and or mightyblow anyway - thus making most armour almost redundant).

EDIT: ohhh guess I should have read all the posts ...before replying to Tom ...


Last edited by Boehm on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 5:21; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 4:58

Yes, I missed "armour save" in the sentence. Terrible. Sorry! This is an additional rule giving an additional +1 bonus on armour save in close combat and only when used in combination with a single-handed close combat weapon (sword, hammer, axe, etc.). Any further questions?

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Last edited by cianty on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 8:26; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Tom's Boring Mordheim Meeting: House Rules   Today at 20:22

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