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 BtB size question

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whisper2053
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PostSubject: BtB size question   Sat 19 Dec 2009 - 16:19

We were playing last night and ran into a situation that has never popped up before and were wondering how to handle it.

Situation:

There is a two sided building corner with 2 floors on the table. On that second floor is a normal sized model standing right on the edge of the floor next to the open space. An opposing player had a Large model near the building that was tall enough to have its upper body (from middle of the chest up) clear over the second floor.

The question was whether that particular model could attack the upper model from the ground, or does it still have to be in base to base contact?
We weren't sure how to handle this so just ruled it a no for the time being, but with Mordheim being a definite WYSIWIG setting, we were all wondering if it was possible to go the other way...
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Mortimer
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sat 19 Dec 2009 - 17:15

Thats hard one ... you could say the combatant at a lower level is at -1 to hit and possibly the one at the higher level being +1 to hit.
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 20 Dec 2009 - 13:52

Technically you can't make hand-to-hand combat attacks unless your bases are touching, but it does sound like an interesting houserule.
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magokiron
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 20 Dec 2009 - 14:13

Mortimer wrote:
Thats hard one ... you could say the combatant at a lower level is at -1 to hit and possibly the one at the higher level being +1 to hit.

+1
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whisper2053
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 20 Dec 2009 - 19:07

Not a bad idea. We'll probably start using that as a house rule for our games. Thanks guys!
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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 6:36

I would keep it base-to-base always. Who knows what other crazy situations might occur which don't work with the proposed new rule anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 12:40

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
I would keep it base-to-base always. Who knows what other crazy situations might occur which don't work with the proposed new rule anyway.

But then, you are TOTALLY NEGATING any "stair fight" as models WILL NOT be BtB, even if one is just in the next upper step of the stairs.

I think the BtB ruling is something valid most of the time, and a NECCESITY in massed "regiment" battles, but for skirmish, it may need to be totally rewritten as there are LOTS of situations (stairs, boxes, tables, platforms, etc - not to talk about "linear obstacles: low walls, fences, windows...) where model OBVIOUSLY can fight each other, even if they aren't BtB.

From the CORE RULEBOOK pg. 26:

Models are also considered to be in hand-to-hand combat even when separated by a low wall or obstacle, where it is impossible for the bases to touch phisically because the obstacle is in the way.


I think this same rule applies to stair fighting and any other situation where models OBVIOUSLY can touch each other, even if not BtB.

But then, that's only my opinion.

Best wishes.
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 13:55

I would say that if they can reach each other they can hit each other.
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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 16:06

magokiron wrote:
But then, you are TOTALLY NEGATING any "stair fight" as models WILL NOT be BtB, even if one is just in the next upper step of the stairs.
[...]
Models are also considered to be in hand-to-hand combat even when separated by a low wall or obstacle, where it is impossible for the bases to touch phisically because the obstacle is in the way.

1) No, I'm not. A stairs counts as a flat piece of ground while moving, so models next to each other on the stairs are indeed in btb-contact.
2) Moving over anything lower than 1 inch can be regarded as moving over flat ground, so if you are on either side of a <1" wall, you are indeed in btb-contact. I think the RB is pretty explicit about it; no quote at hand.
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Tue 22 Dec 2009 - 21:01

Interesting comments on both sides, and I see the validity of both. By the "rules as written," HtH between models on different floors isn't allowed. However, by the much-touted 3D nature of the game, it does seem like a useful house rule.

One thing that might help with this: for LOS/shooting, Da Bank's group (and other groups) consider that a model occupies the entire volume of its base's dimensions all the way up to its head. Now, this isn't in the "rules as written" anywhere, but it is the way some play. You could extend this to HtH base contact as well, where models can be considered in base contact so long as the higher base is no higher than the lower model's head (if they would otherwise be in base contact were they on the same level).
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MonkeyShaman
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Wed 23 Dec 2009 - 5:01

If its only enough to poke a head above to the next floor he won't hit and deal a great deal of damage to the guy above if he even hits at all.
It's a broken angle to swing in, anything stabby is possibly even worse.
(unless its like a laser cut scalpel on a really long punji stick Razz)
The guy top side on the other hand has ample opportunity to measure up a shot against anything really vital.
(Not even counting in the force of a heavy object being thrust downward rather than up or side to side above your head.)

So if nothing else the +/- modifier should be applied if only for purely logical reasons.
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Ezekiel
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 3 Jan 2010 - 11:22

I would treat it as a defended obstacle just like the carts and wagons? (6's to hit de defending model) and if the defender has been wounded, the attacker can climb over to face him in normal combat...

it works fine with the cart, which is also higher than other models... so I'd use that.

makes 3D combat interesting.
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whisper2053
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 3 Jan 2010 - 13:51

But why would it be harder to strike something that has its head level with yours?? The situation in question consisted of a Bone Giant model standing on the ground and a man-sized model standing on an upper floor. All the giant would have to do would be to swing sideways instead of overhead as the human was conveniently located at torso height. I fail to see why that would be more difficult...
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 3 Jan 2010 - 14:06

the other model is defending his second storey over a wall is he not?
he takes up a good defensive position when charged, and therefore is harder to hit... if there's no wall, just the level, then I would treat this case as normal combat, and if it were a small model attacking (instead of the giant) I would still use the defended obstacle rules, and allowing the attack.
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whisper2053
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 3 Jan 2010 - 14:34

Ah, that's where the confusion came from. There was no wall on the edge of the second story floor, just the edge of the floor itself, where the defending model was standing Smile
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magokiron
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PostSubject: Re: BtB size question   Sun 3 Jan 2010 - 17:34

In WHFB a model on high ground gets a +1 to hit.

The model facing him is at -1 to hit.

No need for wall or other cover.

So IMO that's the rule that better reflects this situation.

My 2 cents.
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