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 Torch - weapon or equipment

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Thorwald
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PostSubject: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 14:58

Hi All,

Our gaming group is having a discussion about torches. The main issue with torches is, does it replace a normal club thus counts as a weapon for the length of one game? or is it dealt with like a Lantern, thus equipment.
One member of our group stated that the torch is a piece of equipment which you can use as a weapon, thus granting the player a choice to wield either his normal weapons or use one of it's attacks to use the torch.
Another member stated that it replaces a weapon during the length of a game.

Secondly: What is meant by animals, does a torch grand you the power to scare of Rat-ogres and Minotaurs, or is this meant for Dog's/Giant Rats/Wolves etc.

The Rule:
Quote :
Torch Common Cost: 2 GC
Warriors lacking the funds for a lantern may
have to make do with torches. Torches act
exactly as lanterns, adding +4" to the range
the model may spot hidden enemies
, but
has a few other special rules as well. A
torch will only last one game. A model
armed with a torch counts as causing fear in
animals
(Hunting Dogs, all riding steeds,
Bears, Wolves, etc), and may use a torch as a
makeshift club. When used in combat, a
torch is treated as a normal club, though
with a -1 to hit modifier
. Any models that have a
Regeneration special rule (like Trolls) will not be able
to regenerate wounds caused by a torch
during the battle.
(Torches may also cause
buildings to catch fire – see ‘Let the Damned Burn’,
from Town Cryer 8 ).
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catferret
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 15:52

I would treat it as equipment and therefore heroes only.

It states it may be used as a club, not must be used, so the bearer has the choice if he wants to use it as a weapon over other weapons he is carrying. As equipment it would not count towards a models maximum number of weapons.

I would assume "animals" means anything with the animal special rule in it's warband entry.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 17:41

I think picking at words is silly. One could say that the "may" means he can choose not to hit with it and waste that attack. srs use your thought guys. Where are you going to keep the torch when fighting? In your pants? I dont think so...
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catferret
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 18:30

Drop it on the ground and relight it if you survive, it's a disposable item so no great shakes if you lose it. I know I'd rather fight with a proper weapon than a burning stick that's as liable to injure myself as the the opponent.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 18:37

catferret wrote:
Drop it on the ground and relight it if you survive, it's a disposable item so no great shakes if you lose it. I know I'd rather fight with a proper weapon than a burning stick that's as liable to injure myself as the the opponent.

Relighting it would take time as would drawing another weapon. If your fighting in the dark, time is something you dont have.
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catferret
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 18:46

We can agree to disagree on that then. I'm going purely off my own experience, but I understand why others would have different preferences.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 2 Dec 2009 - 22:52

Keep it simple and kill your darlings. What would be the simplest way to make a torch that you can fight with?

Well, a Club, with the normal torch rule, but that must be re-bought after each game as the torch burns out. If you use fluff and concider its damage fire-based (primarily against regeneration) then I'd use the -1 to hit modifier.
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Myntokk
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Thu 3 Dec 2009 - 12:38

Just to weigh in here - in my opinion it's kind of an "all or nothing" situation. If you're using the torch, then you're holding the torch. I guess you don't have to make attacks with it, but you can't make attacks with another weapon in that hand either.

Nothing explicitly written in the rules to back this up, just common sense. If you're using a torch, i.e. recieving the benefits from having it equipped, then naturally it must be lit, and if it's lit then you can't sheath it or put it away like you would any other weapon.

If you really wanted to get nitpicky with the wording of the equipment, you could look at it two ways. Either there's catferret's interpretation, it may be used as a weapon, but it doesn't have to be used as a weapon. Conversely, that sentence could also just as easily be interpreted as saying that the torch may be used as a weapon, unlike other pieces of equipment which may not be used as weapons.

Now, as catferret said, it is still equipment, not a weapon. So it doesn't count towards the number of weapons that may be carried, nor can it be equipped to Henchmen. That doesn't mean, however, that it's magically floating around when you're using it, or that it doesn't require a hand to carry it, either.
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Shadowphx
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 10:38

Wow! I’ve never played using the torch. Frankly, we’ve never played a scenario in the dark. Going on the basis that I haven’t seen scenario where a Light Source would be a requirement. One would have to go with some common sense. The Rules aren’t written by Lawyers, just gamers. Just as one could drop their shield and draw a sword. Doesn’t mean that shield is gone forever. After battle, the warrior would pick up his shield and continue on. It is debatable whether when the item could be dropped and draw another weapon, when charging, or could it be done just before being charged?



But most of all I’m surprised no-one has mentioned the Possessed. Since, there was another thread about Possessed and Equipment. I’m just mentioning it to see the debate that could ensue. Could a “Possessed” use a torch, since its equipment and not a weapon? If so, does this mean he couldn’t strike with it? Situation: A Possessed Warrior is charged by a Dwarf, both holding torches. The Dwarf swings his torch striking the Possessed. Does the Possessed holding his torch only swing with his free hand?



What are your All’s thoughts?
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Mortimer
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 13:27

I'd have to say as always a Possessed cannot use weapons, even when carrying a torch ... its big nasty claws are probably much more efficient in its eyes.
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Opheliate
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Fri 4 Dec 2009 - 22:29

Mortimer wrote:
I'd have to say as always a Possessed cannot use weapons, even when carrying a torch ... its big nasty claws are probably much more efficient in its eyes.

+1
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 5:49

We were having the same discussion in our gaming-group. We decided it is Miscellaneous Equipment, thus only available to Heroes. Furthermore, you can choose to use it in any HtH phase during the came, but if you do, you have to substitute one of your maximum of two other weapons for the Torch. When you're using the Torch just to increase a model's detection-range, it can still carry two weapons (because it is equipment).

It is equipment, which may be used as a weapon. If a player decides to do so, its model has to discard one weapon and replace it with the Toch, since a model can only use two HtH weapons at the same time.

But what about the causing of Fear? Very simaliar to the discussion over at Ostlanders: Animal Freundschaft, where the question's raised what are 'normal' animals, and what aren't.

EDIT: Crap, I didn't realise it was one of our group who started this topic. Hehe ... Confusing to have the same discussion twice, on different platforms.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Sat 5 Dec 2009 - 11:13

You could easily model a torch mounted on a model's shoulder, back or head and claim it isn't counting as a weapon (unless they headbutt or something) but still gives the light bonus. Mordheim is ripe for silly stuff like dudes setting their selves or their clothes on fire.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Wed 9 Dec 2009 - 17:30

We eventually made the torch a weapon, with the following rules:

Torch (cost: 3, common).
- Attacks with a torch are at -1 WS.
- The strength of the attack is the wielder's Strength -1.
- All attacks with a torch are fire attacks. Whenever the wielder scores a successful hit, roll 1d6 – on a result of 4+, he has set the victim on fire.
- On a hit roll of 1, roll 1d6 – on a result of 4+, the wielder has set himself on fire!
- A model with a torch can set a building on fire on a D6 roll of 6+ if he makes no other HtH attack with the torch.
- A model with a torch has a +4” range in which he may detect hidden enemies (this is not cumulative with other light sources, such as lanterns).

What prompted this change to a weapon was our desire to allow Torches to Witch Hunter Zealots, and it really helps avoid the other confusion as well. The rest came through as part of our balancing act and what we view the affect of torches should be. Note that Torches aren't "one-use" items to us anymore - like sling stones, arrows (including Hunting Arrows), regular bullets, and fuel for Brazier Staves, we assume they are easily replaced after making the initial purchase.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 7:24

Interesting solution, but a bit far from our customs I feel. I see you play with the additional set of rules allowing buildings to be set on fire. We don't.
We sort of decided the Torch is the way it is: rather useless, unless you want to use it specifically to take out our friend Ramblin Rico's Troll for instance (regeneration does not occur after a successful fire attack). Or similar occasions. Or if you have only 2 gc to spare, but do feel you need that light-source coming battle.
I do think you're solution of making it ever-lasting (like the lantern) is elegant. But you really turned it into a weapon; something we clearly decided not to do. One of the reasons would be that miscellaneous equipment is only available to Heroes. If the torch is a weapon, every model can use it. Unless you decided otherwise?
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 9:14

Why not just make it a club that deals fire-based damage, but wont set stuff on fire, for the sake of simplicity. That would mean a club with +1 S vs unarmoured opponents (cloth burn easily) -1 S vs armoured targets (light and heavy armour). And as it is fire based damage, it will ignore the trolls regeneration rule.
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wyldhunt
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Sat 12 Dec 2009 - 21:04

Meister Ostalgie wrote:
If the torch is a weapon, every model can use it.
Not quite - models can only use weapons on their Equipment Lists, except for Heroes who learn certain skills. However, we are deciding which Equipment Lists to place Torch on - Zealots at least. We may end up putting it on all warriors' Equipment Lists, because we will be incorporating underground scenarios at some point, and honestly any warrior should be able to pick up a torch and swing it.
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Meister Ostalgie
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Mon 14 Dec 2009 - 7:53

wyldhunt wrote:
Meister Ostalgie wrote:
If the torch is a weapon, every model can use it.
Not quite - models can only use weapons on their Equipment Lists, except for Heroes who learn certain skills.
I was thinking it is the equivalent of a Club / Mace / Hammer, plus it's common. So nearly all models can equip it. You are talking about making it a specific weapon, no longer relying on the basic concept of the Club as it usually does.
My suggestion: each model able to equip a Club (or equivalent) can equip a Torch. I know Jaegers can't equip a Hammer or anything, thus wouldn't be able to use the Torch.

On the other hand, who on earth cannot use a Torch? Maybe the thing is ... each model can use a Torch, as equipment (so it has to be a Hero), but if it wants to use it as a make-shift club, it has to have it in its equipment list. Rather complex it may be, but it makes sense fluff-wise, I feel.
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PostSubject: Re: Torch - weapon or equipment   Today at 11:22

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