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Gyges
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PostSubject: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Fri 27 Nov 2009 - 14:55

Hi, all.

Games Workshop's lawyers sent a very broad-ranging cease-and-desist letter to Boardgamegeek.com, asking them to remove any and all files related to current and past products--including some player aids for Mordheim.
I don't know if they'll do the same here, or elsewhere, but I have the following advice: if there's a file somewhere (a Town Cryer, the Annual, anything) that you want, download and archive it now. There's a chance it could get taken down soon.
Oh, and they might go after your avatars, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Fri 27 Nov 2009 - 20:56

Sad news, but I'm not surprised after all the recent C&D lawyer letters they have been sending lately.

GW insist in their attempt to KILL all fan related sites and apports.

I don't know if the current GW chairmen can't realize that a good deal of their sales are promoted by all that fan sites they are so eager to shut down.

And some "specialist" games have been ABANDONED for ages now, and it's only the fan base that keeps them (and related miniatures sales) alive.

I still like some of GW minis, but I think I will quit buying from them, as there are LOADS of other companies that produce High quality miniatures, and that are much more friendly to their customers.

Well, well...

Best wishes.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sat 28 Nov 2009 - 12:02

Yeah, just been looking at the thread on BGG, really bonkers, they have pulled player reference sheets for stuff like Carwars and other ancient games that are LONG out of print, even Man'O'War which GW have said before (Jervis) that they lost all the stuff for it and have no intention of ever reprinting, or even supporting.

Looks like really bad news for this site and for Border Town Burning...
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sat 28 Nov 2009 - 16:27

well, if a decent disclaimer is put up, what could they really do? they can't pursue a forum can they??

and if the official rules are just downloaded, or sent around... that's not illegal is it? for personal use... meaning you're not to make a profit off of it... isn't that how we use these files, which they refuse to put out to their own bloody fan base?
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sat 28 Nov 2009 - 17:18

Ezekiel, the problem is that GW has repeatedly sent cease-and-desist orders for things that seem pretty clearly under fair use. I'm not suggesting that they'll do anything to users of this site--but they might, for example, send a legal request to Tom et al to remove all pictures of GW product (such as the little pics next to "primary warband played"). The warning was primarily to users of other sites, such as places where Town Cryers and such are stored.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 3:14

The problem is the "Mordheim" in the URLs, which is explicitly disallowed by GW and the reason for some of their C&D letters.

I don't think they can or want to do much against the warband icons, because we are not using GW photos, but photos of forum members' works there (mostly).

We'll see...

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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 7:32

cianty wrote:

I don't think they can or want to do much against the warband icons, because we are not using GW photos, but photos of forum members' works there (mostly).

I agree that that shouldn't be a problem, but pictures of fan-painted GW products are also a violation of their IP policy unless accompanied by a copyright caption in every instance.
What GW is entitled to do, what they choose to do, and what they take notice of are three very different things.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 7:49

Gyges wrote:
... pictures of fan-painted GW products are also a violation of their IP policy unless accompanied by a copyright caption in every instance.
Assuming that this forum receives such a cease & desist letter, and assuming that the powers-that-be here want to play along, I'm sure we can collectively come up with some suitable proxies from other companies that can be accompanied by a caption saying who makes them.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 8:02

Gyges wrote:
pictures of fan-painted GW products are also a violation of their IP policy unless accompanied by a copyright caption in every instance.

But then no forum, or blog, or whatever, would be allowed to show GW products at all. I don't think they'd try that.

If they wanted us to add a disclaimer, then that wouldn't be a problem

I know they asked online retailers to not use the official photos of GW products but instead take their own pictures in order to advertise GW products. We're not even a retailer and the photos here where taken by members. Seriously, I don't see them banning photos of GW products altogether.

And if, then I wanna see them take on CMON first.. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 9:26

Sounds like a storm in a tea cup if you ask me.

Regards,

Werekin.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 10:37

Any self respecting company should NEVER ask their retailers to take their own pictures... that would be a killing blow to your own product... you have a product, spend time on advertising it, and money on making it as appealing as can be, and then you'd go about asking your retailers to totally screw things up (Retailers -and for that matter, all clients- are idiots... they will not follow the line you set out to follow with your company, and instead do their own thing) if you want your product to be recognised by all end-users in the same way, and thus be a big presence in the market... make sure there are guidelines, or even better, distribute your own communication... (pictures, texts, whatever nescessary)

It seems either GW management is comprised of sad little kids who are afraid of other people having ideas of their own (potentially better) or these lawsuits are just being exagurated to great extend by the community...
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Sun 29 Nov 2009 - 11:23

Ezekiel wrote:
Any self respecting company should NEVER ask their retailers to take their own pictures...
even better, distribute your own communication... (pictures, texts, whatever nescessary)

Online retailers, even officially sanctioned ones, are not permitted by GW to use ANY pictures. Not even ones that GW sends them. This policy is enforced inconsistently, but that is the policy.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 2:00

And what is the grand idea behind that ruling?! it sounds rather dumb if you'd ask me... but then again, GW is somewhat known for it's mysterious ways...
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 3:13

Having the same business ethics as Jesse James, although without the guns, combined with business practices implimented by idiots DOES NOT portend well for the company's future.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 30 Nov 2009 - 5:21

I think that someone needs to just go full out and re-print their rules and publish them. It is totally legal, and would be a nice way to stick it back in the face of one of the biggest IP bullies ever. As long as you leave out any form of literary expression contained in the work you are free to reproduce, in exactitude, any rule system for any game.(at least in the U.S.A.)
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 7:51

Gyges wrote:
cianty wrote:

I don't think they can or want to do much against the warband icons, because we are not using GW photos, but photos of forum members' works there (mostly).

I agree that that shouldn't be a problem, but pictures of fan-painted GW products are also a violation of their IP policy unless accompanied by a copyright caption in every instance.
What GW is entitled to do, what they choose to do, and what they take notice of are three very different things.
Actually their concern is that you don't use pictures they have taken, pictures of their artwork (including boxes), or anything used in their official advertising.

Posting pictures of your own work is not going to get looked at. Even if it's a GW model, if you paint or convert it you can do what you want with it. This is actually how my employer is getting around not being able to use GW pictures (and honestly, their the only company to ask us to remove their pictures, everyone else DEMANDS put up the pictures they spent time and money on).
DeafNala wrote:
Having the same business ethics as Jesse James,
although without the guns, combined with business practices implimented
by idiots DOES NOT portend well for the company's future.
Definitely, my groups of friends here have been trying to figure out what GW is trying to do, if anything, as it all seems completely random and extremely paranoid. And it seems every week their's something new that comes up, either they want something shut down, removed, or they stop supporting their own models (the Space Wolf named characters went Direct Service after a month of the release).
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 8:46

If GW ran a gas station, they'd suppliment their profits by stealing their customers cars.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 11:07

Then demanding that only they can rightfully own the cars, because they're filled with their gas.


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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 11:10

Roguelike wrote:
...the Space Wolf named characters went Direct Service after a month of the release...

Two reasons for that.

1. Character models sell a lot less than units as each player only needs 1 of any given character. Stock sitting in storage just takes up space and doesn't make any money. Therefore these items are given instore time when the product is still fresh and demand is higher. After this period, the space is used by the next big thing. The product is still available but on an order only basis. The instore order points are available after all.

2. Storage space can be pretty limited in most of the stores.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 11:19

Yes in store order points are available, but it's just another unnecessary step. Because now I have to go to GamesWorkshop (for somepeople quite a drive from the stories I've heard), rather than a local retailer who might not even know they can get the item still. They can be rather vague when item's go Direct Service, or are discontinued, or just backordered Wink

As for space, there's lots of space in any GamesWorkshop. The number of SpaceHulk boxes left are testiment to that lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Mon 7 Dec 2009 - 17:29

JAFisher44 wrote:
I think that someone needs to just go full out and re-print their rules and publish them. It is totally legal, and would be a nice way to stick it back in the face of one of the biggest IP bullies ever. As long as you leave out any form of literary expression contained in the work you are free to reproduce, in exactitude, any rule system for any game.(at least in the U.S.A.)

I'd like to believe that, but i just can't imagine that being legal. Can you back up this claim?

Couldnt GW calim that their sentence structure is litereary expression to combat this?
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Tue 8 Dec 2009 - 1:05

Yeah, it's not legal.

Copyright is based on a very simple principal: if you wrote, drew, sculpted or otherwise created something it's yours. If someone reproduces it without permission you can take them to court and most courts will find for the copyright holder. Reprinting GWs rules would breach that quite obviously.

I won't argue that GW is being stupid, inconsistent and heavy-handed about it; but don't kid yourselves that you can steal or reproduce anything copyrighted without consequences.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 18:22

The more I hear this type of crap the more I don't want to have anything to do with GW & their games. I just wish that there was a good US based company that would fill their niche . Privateer Press seems the closest to doing so but I still prefer how I can make up my own Lords/Generals n' such via GW WH & WH40k. The same goes with Warlord, if they'd gve us rules to create or customise our own army leadership I'd be very happy. I'd love for PP & RM to create a Mordheim style game set in their worlds. That or I'll have to come up with my own home brewed rules for such a game . I love Mordheim (though the rules could do with a update especially armor-wise) & the kind of warbands I can use, so I'd hate to give it up. This pisses me off alot.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 19:46

What I'm about to say could very well fan the flames of heresy, but I do believe that an explanation is in order, so here goes...

For starters, I agree with everyone here (and elsewhere in the online community) that GW's policies concerning IP and Copyright protections are inane.

However

What they're doing is what they should and actually have to do.

What quite a few people don't realize or understand is how British IP Law works, and there's where the problem lies in its entirety. The exact wording escapes me at the moment, but the general gist of train of thought involved is as follows:

1. Company develops and copyrights an IP.

2. Company discovers someone (that isn't the Company in question) else utilizing said IP.

3. If Company does not enact stringent and draconian measures to defend their IP (read: lawsuits and such), then it can be argued (successfully!) by ANY third party that said Company has no interest in defending/holding their IP.

4. Company LOSES, irrevocably, all rights to said IP per British Law.

I admit that it is the absolute height of stupidity, but the unfortunate consequence is that the law is thus. Essentially, if GW were to let any challenge to their lawful ownership of the various Warhammer/40k/etc. IPs stand, then they would lose that ownership for ALL portions of their flagship wargaming business. It sucks, but the alternative (for them) is far, far worse.
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PostSubject: Re: Games Workshop on the Warpath   Tue 15 Dec 2009 - 20:45

@whisper2053 and all:

Sounds like the legal eagles of GW would be smart (yeah, I know...not in 10 millennium)...
if they put out apologies to the on-line community, if this copyright law thing is true, explaining their position and how regretful they are being forced to take legal action.
But then, if the next statement is true, then they could make it worse by admiting it on-line and spreading the word around about what it takes to do industrial sabotage.

Who knows, this very well could be brought on by comepetitors, reporting sites to GW, knowing what they will have to do.
Their plan: Hoping to upset players and make them leave GW.
It seems to be working.
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