Weapon house rules brainstorm

I was chatting about blunderbusses and volley guns with nala and rhyd in another thread, which caused me to want to collect some of the different house rules ideas I've had about weapons, mainly based on reading what people have written around the internet combined with my own ideas of how things should work. Feedback welcome, this is all very loose.

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- Spears have the Difficult to Use rule, meaning that you can only combine them with a shield, but not with a second weapon or buckler. They also retain the original Strike First rule, meaning that they always strike first against a charging opponent, unless that opponent is also armed with a spear or pike. (It has no effect when you charge, since you would strike first then anyway.) Both opponents having spears cancel each other out.

- Whips with the Reach rule cannot make close combat attacks at range. Instead, they can make a single ranged attack in the shooting phase at a range of 4". This attack has the Strength of the user, uses comparative WS instead of BS for the to hit roll, and does not suffer negative modifiers for moving and shooting or long range.

- Pikes also have Reach and follow the same rules as for whips, except that their ranged attack only has a range of 3". Pikes also have Improved Strike First, which is the same as the Strike First rule of spears, except that pikes trump spears, so a pike strikes first against a charging model with a spear. Two pikes cancel each other out.

- Blunderbusses have their rules completely changed, as their original rules are transferred to a different weapon described below. When firing a blunderbuss, draw a straight line 12" long and 1" wide in any direction (ideally use a template for this). All models touched by this line automatically take a Strength 3 hit if they are within the first 4" of the firer, a Strength 2 hit if they are between 4" and 8" from the firer, and a Strength 1 hit if they are between 8" and 12" from the firer. The blunderbuss also has the special rule +1 Enemy armour save (which does what the title says).

- Volley Guns are a new weapon, representing a number of gun barrels strapped together and fired in unison. They follow the original rules for blunderbusses, meaning they can only fire once per game, and hit all models in a 16" long line with an automatic Strength 3 hit. Volley Guns are considered a blunderbuss variant, meaning they have exactly the same cost and rarity as blunderbusses, and are available to any model to which a blunderbuss is available.

- Slings gain the special rule +1 Enemy armour save in addition to its other rules.

I've written more on the blunderbuss idea in the original thread -- otherwise, these all look like good house rulings to me! & I'm only partly saying that because you've hit the same point as me on several things...

While I have... technical armoury nerd objections to the Pike in Mordheim at all (it's not a skirmish weapon!), I admit that the models are really nice & it's a fun inclusion for the Lustria setting. Once again, your house ruling looks good on this weapon!

Thank you! I like the blunderbuss feedback in the other thread, so basically only have a short range of 4" and a long range of 8", and only give +1 to armour save on the long range hit. Very nice. I wonder if it would be fun to make a cone shaped template for it? Flamer style...

I also completely agree about the pike! It really is a silly weapon in this context. I actually think it should have some drastically different rules to make it useful in a manner more keeping with its appearance. What do you think of this?

Pike has:

Two-handed
Strike last
Cannot charge - A model carrying this weapon cannot charge.
Reach 3" - As described above.
Fend - When an enemy model charges a model using a weapon with Fend from further than 3" away, roll a D6 for both models and add their initiative. If the charging model has a higher score, the charge is resolved as normal. If the roll is tied or the fending model has a higher score, the charger must stop 3" away from the fending model, and the fending model may immediately make a single ranged attack against the charger using the Reach attack rules.

I recall in the original development rules for Mordheim in White Dwarf, the blunderbuss did indeed use a flamer template! I think the switch to a rectangular 'corridor' in the Mordheim Rulebook was so that players didn't need a template from a different game for this one, unusual weapon. Whenever I've written up Mordheim rules for things like a Warpfire Thrower, I've allowed players to use a template if they have one, or else to use a measured 'corridor'.

As for the Pike -- I quite like the idea of 'fend' rules as you've lain them out, & they seem well written. I'd be concerned that they might be a bit of a faff to play, & could be very frustrating for anyone trying to attack Pikes (especially low-Initiative fighters like Dwarves). BUT that might well be balanced against them being two-handed & striking last, so I'd recommend play-testing the rules you've written & seeing how fun they are in action! Personally I took the coward's way out & simply cut all pikes down to spears or halberds...

Cool!

I agree that "realism" or whatever you want to call it shouldn't be an excuse for something that isn't fun, and how this may relate to the pikes. I think it is a risk because the ability to stop charges already exists with the Pit Fighters that have an Evade skill which is very similar to Fend, it just stops the charge with the models in base contact (which I think is weird). And last time I used it, I did feel my opponent being a little perturbed about simply just losing his charge, period.

I assume that Fend is more manageable than Evade because there are two ways to mitigate Fend (being within 3" or having high Ini), whereas there are no ways to mitigate Evade. That still doesn't make it fun, but at least it is better than its precedent.

I basically see the pike in this version as a combination of Evade with a steel whip, with the pretty big downside of not being able to charge or fight effectively in close combat at all. It basically makes the wielder into a very short ranged shooter with some defensive tech. I will try it and see how it goes...

Ahhh, there's a lot of thinking going into these rules now. Have you tried 'Fend' yet? If so, did it work to your satisfaction? I still quite like the idea of it, especially the potential for a high-initiative character to simply hold his enemy at a distance!

Mind you, I hadn't noticed your 'cannot charge' rule on the Pike, which I think is too much restriction. A less severe depiction of their unwieldiness might be to say the wielder can only charge their Movement (not double their Movement, as normal), or gains no advantage from charging (they wouldn't strike first). Otherwise I think Pike-armed fighters would become too unwieldy for a skirmish game. Again, I might be wrong!

I have not played with the Fend rule yet, as I don't play very often, but I intend to start up a Tilean warband next time I play and see how it goes. It will probably help to make the rules clear at the start of the game, the Evade issue was probably mostly that I just noticed the rule mid-game.

I guess the point you are raising is that in Mordhammer, the only way to enter close combat is to charge. And personally, I also don't understand why that is the case. Why can't you just make a normal move and enter close combat that way?

That was my intention anyway - not that it is completely impossible for a pikeman to engage an enemy close up on their own initiative, but just that it is awkward for them to do so due to their unwieldy pike.

So my preference would actually be to just make a house rule for the system in general, assuming this doesn't break anything:

- A model can enter close combat without making a charge move, and just using their normal move to enter base contact with an enemy, but strike last on a turn that they do. (No effect on the pikeman since he strikes last anyway.)

- A model can enter close combat by making a run move into base contact with an enemy, but they strike last on that turn, and the enemy model gets to make one free attack with a weapon of their choice on the running model at the end of that movement phase.

This would discourage models from entering close combat without charging, but not disallow it.

If this breaks something in the rules, then I would just institute the first one just for pikes as you suggest.

Thanks for the feedback!

One thing I like about the Reach rule anyway is that it only allows you to make one pike or whip attack at a distance, no matter how many attacks you have on your profile. If you want to slice up your enemy with a whirlwind of blows, go with a sword or axe. This makes pikes less ideal for experienced fighters with good combat stats, and better for low skill fighters, which is exactly how I think it should be.

Hmm. I think house-ruling so warriors can enter combat without charging is unneccessary, given that in Mordheim charging is pretty much just a move that enters combat anyway. The only situations it would really change are some instances where warriors are expressly forbidden from charging, like when they've recovered from being knocked down. I don't think it would break the game, & I certainly wouldn't condemn you for trying it, but to me it seems unneccessary. That could just be a matter of taste though.

Wishing wrote:

Spears have the Difficult to Use rule, meaning that you can only combine them with a shield, but not with a second weapon or buckler. They also retain the original Strike First rule, meaning that they always strike first against a charging opponent, unless that opponent is also armed with a spear or pike ...

Any particular reason for replacing the unwieldy rule that allows you to use either a shield or a buckler with a spear?

FWIW, my preference with spears is to stick with the updated strike first rules but to have them grant a +1 initiative bonus in the first round of a combat.

Rhydderch wrote:

I think house-ruling so warriors can enter combat without charging is unneccessary, given that in Mordheim charging is pretty much just a move that enters combat anyway.

Hmm, I think maybe I am a little confused about how charging works then maybe. Maybe you can help me out.

Looking at the rulebook, I can see I laboured under two misconceptions, where the main one is that I thought you had to have line of sight to your target, and the second being that you had to move in a straight line. Apparently you can charge around corners, so I can see what you mean now. I guess I got confused by playing Warmachine for many years instead of Warhammer.

But in that case... what effect does it have that zombies cannot run, when they can charge? What is the difference between running and charging? The only difference I can see is that charging happens before running, but does that matter?

I guess the issue really isn't about the pike itself. If a pikeman could only attack with his pike, then you would never want to charge with him anyway - you get one attack at your base strength that always strikes last, very terrible. I guess the issue is that a model can carry more than one weapon. So I could give a model both a pike and a halberd, and when charging, just use the halberd and strike first with +1 strength, with the pike slung on his back.

That's what I wanted to avoid I suppose. Carrying a pike should encumber you and make you unable to do fancy combat stuff that isn't stabbing people from a distance. So how to best achieve that?

Is this an issue with two handed weapons? Seems like the rules allow that too... carry both a halberd and a great weapon, and use the great weapon when you would be striking last anyway, and the halberd otherwise. That seems super sketchy to me.

Citizen Sade wrote:

Any particular reason for replacing the unwieldy rule that allows you to use either a shield or a buckler with a spear?

Yes, but I probably got to admit that it's a weak one... I like my physical Mordheim rulebook, and the Unwieldy rule doesn't exist in that. But the Difficult to use rule does, and is on the same page as the spear, so I just referenced that.

Sounds like the only difference is that Unwieldy allows a buckler and DTU doesn't? Seems like a marginal difference.

Zombies can't run, which makes them slow to move around the battlefield. It also limits how much an Undead warband can manoeuvre, without leaving their zombies behind. BUT they can charge to get into combat, as if the zombies put on a spurt of shuffling to get at their prey/food. Since warriors can't Run while within 8" of an enemy fighter (but can Charge), this also means Zombies get a chance to catch warriors who might otherwise just shuffle 4" away every turn.

In brief, Charging can only be used to get into combat; Running can't be done too close to combat. Again, running can't be done within 8" of an enemy, as the warrior is on their guard against the foe -- but they can charge towards that foe, at running speed.

Wishing wrote:

I guess I got confused by playing Warmachine for many years instead of Warhammer.

I do the same thing between Mordheim & Old Necromunda, & Mordheim & New Necromunda, & between Old & New Necromunda, back & forth in a mess of 'Does this game use that rule?'

Hmm, so you want a mechanic to balance warriors having too much of a choice in weaponry they carry... Personally, I've never found this to be a problem. Because of the cost of weapons, henchmen, & replacing both when they're lost, I think it takes a while in a campaign for a warband to over-load any given henchman or hero with weapons. In one of the old Mordheim FAQs, someone asked about whether a marksman with crossbow & longbow wouldn't have too much advantage, from the strength of the crossbow when they stood still, while still being able to move & shoot with the longbow. The reply just pointed out that that would cost 40gc, for every marksman in the group. Then if the henchman dies, that's all lost.

Plus, since warriors can't switch weapons during a combat, there should be a trade-off in any choice of weapon -- your example warrior charges with his halberd to get the strength bonus, but then can't defend himself with his pike if more enemies pile-in.

But, if you want a rule to ensure balance, hmm... A simple one might be that warriors carrying pikes do not gain benefit from the Strikes First rule on charging, &/or always fight at -1 Initiative, to represent the difficulty of carrying such an unwieldy weapon. So a warrior with a pike CAN charge, but it's riskier, & keeps the pike a mostly defensive weapon.
Alternatively, there's a Classic Necromunda rule that said any fighter carrying a weapon of rifle-size or larger always needed one hand to hold it. They couldn't use two close combat weapons, or a two-handed close combat weapon, because one hand was holding their gun. You could easily introduce a similar rule for Pikes, Spears, Halberds, & maybe Two-Handed Weapons -- anything that can't reasonably be hung from a belt or hung on the back. No-one makes Halberd Sheathes, so requiring a warrior hold that weapon limiting them to one hand for fighting might work for your purposes. Going back to your example fighter, if they try to charge carrying a pike, they can't also wield their two-handed halberd.

As I say, I've found the cost of weaponry, the risk of piling too much into a single warrior, & the trade-offs of choosing one weapon at a time to fight with to be balance enough, but I admit there are other ways to play. Hope this is worth something to you!

Rhydderch wrote:

Alternatively, there's a Classic Necromunda rule that said any fighter carrying a weapon of rifle-size or larger always needed one hand to hold it. They couldn't use two close combat weapons, or a two-handed close combat weapon, because one hand was holding their gun. You could easily introduce a similar rule for Pikes, Spears, Halberds, & maybe Two-Handed Weapons -- anything that can't reasonably be hung from a belt or hung on the back. No-one makes Halberd Sheathes, so requiring a warrior hold that weapon limiting them to one hand for fighting might work for your purposes. Going back to your example fighter, if they try to charge carrying a pike, they can't also wield their two-handed halberd.

I actually really like that suggestion! Most excellent idea, thank you! Easy enough to say that all weapons that have one of the "wield restriction" rules - like two-handed, difficult to use, unwieldy, etc - always take up one hand slot, no matter what other weapons the model carries.

I have also been playing a few games recently using the pike rules. I actually really like them, even though I haven't had them used against me yet, but my opponents seem cool with them too.

I settled on no restrictions on charging, but instead, a pikeman has his extra move and run speed halved, so he only charges and runs 6" rather than 8".

The pike then functions through a mix of the Fend rule and the Reach rule, which we both set at 2".

The idea is that the pikeman moves slowly forward. If an enemy model tries to charge him, that model has to stop 2" away, and they take an initiative contest. If the attacker wins, he gets to complete his charge. If the pikeman wins, the attacker has to stop, and the pikeman gets to make a free Reach attack. So that's a variant on "strike first", in a sense, that also denies their opponent the chance to attack at all, dependent on that initiative test.

Next turn, the pikeman has a choice. The enemy is now within 2", so he can use the pike to make a reach attack. But if he does, and the enemy survives, then he cannot use his pike to Fend again next turn, so then he will get charged. Alternatively, the pikeman can back away, since he is not in combat. If he does, and the enemy keeps trying to charge, he can keep trying to Fend, but at the cost of never getting to attack on his own turn.

And if the fending is too annoying, it is very easy to shut it down - the pikeman can only do it once per enemy turn, so you can just charge him with two models. Also he cannot Fend once he is engaged in close combat.

So it's basically a very short ranged shooting weapon that has an inbuilt mechanism to stop enemies charging them, within limits. So it works in the context of a skirmish game, without being super strong. And if you have a group of pikemen together, they can concentrate their Reach attacks, so they get more powerful that way.

The main thing I am unsure about is whether to hit modifiers to shooting should apply or not. Like plusses to hit a large target, or specific minuses for shooting attacks from mist or darkness etc. So far we have been playing that they do apply, but maybe that is silly.

An issue with reach style attacks though is clearly, as the hit modifier thing shows, how much you want them to feel like close combat or like shooting. If they are shooting attacks, you can't do it into a close combat, for example. So if one pikeman is charged successfully, all the rest of the pikemen either have to charge too, or just stand around, because you cannot shoot into close combat in these rules.

Of course, you could just give them a special rule that they can shoot into close combat. But do we want that? And the longer the reach rules get, the more awkward it starts to feel. And I guess that's why they removed the reach rule from the steel whips in Mordheim errata.

Those pike rules sound pretty good as they stand, & I'm glad you've actually got a bit of playtesting to back them up!

I wouldn't go for applying shooting modifiers to reach attacks. I also don't think pikes should be able to 'shoot' into combat. Instead, maybe the Fend rule applies to any charge passing within 2" of the Pikeman (against the pikeman or otherwise), so it can be used like the Intercept rules on charging. That way, if you had a group of pikemen together (let's say three making a wall across an alley) they would all have a chance to Fend an attacker charging one member of the group. You could also put a pikeman near another friendly fighter, & they would have a chance to Fend attackers charging the friendly fighter, like an assist. One the charging enemy is past the pike & in contact, it makes sense that the pike can't Reach into combat -- melees are supposed to be whirling, shifting duels, which is why they can't be targetted with shooting, or with a twelve foot polearm.

It would be a pretty powerful supporting weapon then, but would give that advantage only where you're bunching fighters together -- like an entire group of pikemen standing together, or doubling up with other fighters. The strength is balanced by a weakness, which is usually a good sign in rules development.

& yeah, the Steel Whip Reach rule was... not at all clear in the printed form.

Glad the Old Necromunda rule was useful! Not all players were happy with it Back In The Day, & it was replaced in N17, but if you're happy with it -- great! I also promise I've read those map campaign rules, & will get back to you on them! No major issues found, & some of what I've noticed might have come up in testing already.

Thanks for the comments! I really like the idea of pikemen intercepting, but, I have a hard time seeing how it could work in practice.

Firstly, because of the intercept rule that already exists as you say. That simply makes it illegal to charge past model A to get to model B, right? So that is not actually something you can defend against, because it's not something you can do. The intercept rule makes it so that if you are charging a group, you have to charge the closest target.

Then, the group of pikemen. If you charge into a group of pikemen, most likely, you will only be charging a single specific model - the one closest to you. When you get within 2" of him, you will only be within 2" of him, not of any of the rest of the pikemen, assuming that you charged in a straight line. So only the one you charged will actually get to fend you, because you aren't within 2" of anyone else at the time the fend happens.

To solve that, it seems to me like you would need to make the rules much more intricate, which I am loath to do.

As for the campaign map rules, we have actually been challenged when using them over the last few weeks, because we had a tendency to roll antagonist encounters all the time, and it was just kinda tedious. Start a campaign round, the first move by the first warband triggers an antagonist encounter, round over. Next round, the first move by the first warband triggers an antagonist encounter again, round over. Our warbands didn't actually get to fight each other, just random skeletons and knights and so on.

So I think now, we are still using the map to indicate where the different warbands are located at any given time, but we have toned down on the antagonists. Now we let the warbands move around in the appropriate order, and their moves just determine which other warbands they run into and where. My poor pit fighters have been reduced to only five models, but they are being attacked by the full-strength vampire warband, which they will have to fight in the amphitheatre next session. It will probably not go well...

If the grouped pikemen are close together, their 2" reach should overlap with each other -- most miniatures will have bases less than 1" across (20-25mm being usual), so the pikemen would be able to Fend the charging enemy before it reached the target. It might be that the charger gets past the 2" Fend range of the target pikeman, but then gets caught by another friendly pikeman, guarding the target fighter. Or the pikeman can be placed within 1" of a friendly fighter, slightly behind them, & can Fend enemies trying to charge the friendly fighter.

Like I say, it means bunching the pikemen pretty close (which is a weakness) but gives them an extra protective ability. But, if you think it's an extra bit of faff you don't want, that's fair.

Oof, things don't sound good for the pit-fighters. & I can definitely see why you've at least reduced the antagonist encounters.

Oh yeah, you're right that having a group of pikemen together would mean that if the first one fails, the rest of them would get to try too. I didn't think of that!

So the wording of the Fend rule could be: When an enemy model charges a friendly model within 2" of the wielder from further than 2" away, and the charging model comes within 2" of the wielder as part of its charge movement, the wielder may attempt to interrupt the charge. The wielder and the charger both roll a D6 and add their initiative, and if the wielder wins, the charger must stop at the point at which it entered the 2" range, making the charge fail, and the wielder may immediately make a free reach attack.

I think that works, and I really like how it means a pikeman can defend a model while standing behind it rather than in front of it.

Actually, I was thinking that maybe an enemy being fended can use their strength instead of initiative if it is higher, to represent that a strong model is better able to just batter the pike aside?

[Apologies for not getting back on this sooner]

That sounds like a decent writing of the rules on pikes; I'd be inclined to leave it as Initiative only, to minimise rules as written, but if it plays well with Strength as an option then great! The entire 'Fend' rule feels like an 'Advanced Option' for players who already know the core game fairly well, so a bit of extra complexity or option shouldn't be a problem. As ever, final decision comes down to playtesting, which is... tricky at the moment.

Well, we still play, on occasion. It is allowed to meet in small groups here. : )

Thanks so much for the feedback! Also in email.

I am a fan of:
-Attacks are generally done from a model's "Front Arc", as firing a Blunderbuss from your arse is a bit silly.
-Weapons have keywords. For example, Pistols, Duelling Pistols, Double-Barrelled Duelling Pistols, etc. all have the PISTOL and BLACKPOWDER keyword. The Superior Blackpowder item gives all BLACKPOWDER weapons +1 Strength, etc.
-Side-stepping: During each initiative step, models engaged in close combat may 'move' up to half their normal movement, provided they remain engaged in close combat with at least one of the same models that they were engaged with. Any model which is no longer engaged with the side-stepping model as a result of the side-step gets a 'free strike', provided they are not engaged with other models. Unengaged models within 2" of the side-stepping model may attempt to Intercept.
--The idea is simple: Melee is fairly 'static' in that it's two parties slugging it out until one of the parties is 'majority models KD', or all-alone tests can be forced. Plus being able to 'sidestep' around lets you do things like avoiding table edges, or making room for other friends to charge in and support.
-Weapons have "Reach". A model that is not 'in range' of a melee weapon with superior reach may attempt to "sidestep" to get in retaliation range.
--Add the 'reach' of a weapon to the effective range that a charge can be intercepted. That is, henchmen with spears can intercept a charge lane 3" away instead of 2", pikemen can intercept one 4" away, etc. They still move only 2" during the intercept, however.
-Daggers can be thrown. If so, use the stats for a throwing knife, but with +1 to the opponent's armor save. If this is done, the dagger has to be replaced after combat.
-You may reload one pistol during your recovery phase, provided you are not engaged in close combat. You may NOT use a pistol in the same turn that you reload it, whether for shooting or close combat. (RAW, it's technically possible to shoot, then enter close combat, then shoot, assuming you win the fight.)
-Spears can be thrown, as one-shot javelins.
-Shields provide +2 save vs attacks against the model's 'front arc'.
-Halberds have the "Caused Fall" rule, where you can make an unmodified 'strength check' to force an automatic knockdown result vs enemy models.
-Double-Handed Weapons are subtyped among Swords/Axes/Hammers.
-Slings do NOT get the 'fire twice' special rule. Rather, a sling that fires within 'half-range' without moving gains the Concussive rule.