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2704ENG
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PostSubject: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeFri 22 Mar 2019 - 5:47

Super keen to try out the Shadow Warriors for our new campaign though very conscious of their reputation of being overpowered. Thus I've smacked them around with the nerf stick - nothing too major as I didn't want to change the way they played - mostly cost and stat tweaks to bring them more in line mostly based on the Dark Elf and Dwarf Treasure Hunters warband.

PDF link to the file below with changes in "red"

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nkmn93q0ah6htw1/Shadow_Warriors_Edited.pdf?dl=0

Summary of changes:

HEROES

Shadow Master
Cost increased from 70gc to 90gc.
BS reduced from 5 to 4

Shadow Walker
Cost increased from 45gc to 50gc.
WS reduced from 5 to 4
Maximum 2 available for hire during warband creation.

Shadow Weaver
Cost increased from 55gc to 60gc.
I reduced from 6 to 5


HENCHMEN

Shadow Warriors
Cost increased from 35gc to 50gc.
I reduced from 6 to 5

Shadow Warriors Novices
Cost increased from 25gc to 35gc.
I reduced from 5 to 4


SPECIAL SKILLS

Sniper - enemies targeted can test against I to detect.

Powerful Build - cannot be taken by Shadow Weavers.


At warband creation it'll be limited to a maximum of 4 heroes and 2-4 henchmen depending on how they're decked out. 6-8 model starting warband more or less reflect their elite status. Hoping that these tweaks are enough to balanced out of of its issues.

Comments and feedback welcome! Elf
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Grimscull
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeFri 22 Mar 2019 - 16:08

Yours is the way to go, probably. So did I get it right, you CAN have 3 Shadow Walkers, just not at the beginning?
I also seem to remember that there were 1 or 2 of the Weaver's spells that were an absolute B****, one where the weaver is invisible and another one with a strenght-test. And I was the one playing the elves...
Last thing in the old list there was NO reason to take novices as warriors were way better for just a little extra coin, don't know if the additional 5 gold cost-gap will fix this.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSat 23 Mar 2019 - 1:27

Grimscull wrote:
Yours is the way to go, probably. So did I get it right, you CAN have 3 Shadow Walkers, just not at the beginning?
I also seem to remember that there were 1 or 2 of the Weaver's spells that were an absolute B****, one where the weaver is invisible and another one with a strenght-test. And I was the one playing the elves...
Last thing in the old list there was NO reason to take novices as warriors were way better for just a little extra coin, don't know if the additional 5 gold cost-gap will fix this.

No - you will be only limited to a maximum of two with the idea being that you can only start with four heroes when you create your warband. In order to get to the maximum number of six heroes you will have to rely on Lads got Talent.

Might actually bump the cost of the Shadow Walker to 55gc as they currently cost the same as a Shadow Warrior but with an additional point of I.

Regarding the spells the ones that you are referring to is Cloak of Darkenss and Shadowbind.

Cloak of Darkness is pretty dirty in that it renders you complete invisible as long as you do not attach, cast a spell or engage in close combat. So on scenarios where you get experience by getting your heroes off the board you can leisurely just saunter across without a care in the world... It's difficulty of 7 kinda exacerbates the problem.

A potential solution might be allowing your opponent to test against I with a -1 modifier to see if they are able to detect you.

Shadowbind is the other one where you can bind a model within 24" who is 2" from a wall. They're stuck there until they can pass a strength test on 2D6. If attacked while being binded, they are treated as stunned so you can simply get your guys into base contact and take them out. It's pretty potent despite being Difficulty 9 especially as it doesn't require LOS.

A simple fix I would suggest is to make it that you'll need LOS to the model that you're casting it on.

Shadow Warriors now cost an additional 15gc more than Novices for +1WS, +1BS and +1I. I actually think you're better off starting with Novices because when it comes to equipment you don't have access to 3gc club and maces.

A fully kitted out Shadow Warrior with sword and longbow will cost 70gc! That's quite a bit to invest in a henchmen that you could end up losing 1/3 of the time!


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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSat 23 Mar 2019 - 5:46

I remember a scenario where you were supposed to claim an object that was guarded by another warband. Cloak of Shadows was a gambreaker there. Propbably should have counted "carrying the object" as kind of attacking or something... geek
Shadowbind is really dangerous, even for trolls, vampires and stuff, because of using two dice for the strengh-test. My opponents really hated it.
Your proposed solutions for these two look good to me. So do all your recommended changes. I hope that, combined, they don't nerf your warband too much. Let us hear how your campaign was going!

P.S. totally oversaw your link the first time, would have searched out the names of the spells myself study
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSat 23 Mar 2019 - 16:49

I too am interested in how this plays... Not that any of the gits that play pointy ears in my group would accept those nerfs...
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSun 24 Mar 2019 - 11:28

Von Kurst wrote:
I too am interested in how this plays...  Not that any of the gits that play pointy ears in my group would accept those nerfs...

Oh really? Surely they realise that in their current format the pointy ears are way too good lol...

Are the nerfs a little to much in your opinion? Or are the pointy eared players in your group just greedy haha.

Grimscull wrote:
Shadowbind is really dangerous, even for trolls, vampires and stuff, because of using two dice for the strengh-test. My opponents really hated it.

Good point on the big guys - hadn't even thought about that. The fact that it treats models as "stunned" is even more dangerous... oh look I only have to roll 3+ to hit with my long bow to take your hero OOA once he's been binded...

With large monsters not sure how it'll even work... surely you can't reduced a W3 ogre to "stunned" simply because he's binded?!

Considering further nerfs that it can only affect "human" sized or making large monsters like ogres and trolls test on single D6 as opposed to 2D6 but removing their stunned status.

But yes once I've firmed up the changes will keep you guys posted on how the warband performs!
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSun 24 Mar 2019 - 17:50

The changes made seem good, & I'm joining in the chorus of being interested in how this plays out. I don't think you've nerfed it too much -- when I drew up an Elf list, I nerfed it much further, & took the costs down to match, allowing a larger warband. But that was never tested (yet), & I'm also curious to hear about an elite warband in play.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeSun 24 Mar 2019 - 19:06

2704ENG wrote:
Von Kurst wrote:
I too am interested in how this plays...  Not that any of the gits that play pointy ears in my group would accept those nerfs...

Oh really? Surely they realise that in their current format the pointy ears are way too good lol...

Are the nerfs a little to much in your opinion? Or are the pointy eared players in your group just greedy haha.


But yes once I've firmed up the changes will keep you guys posted on how the warband performs!

My players are too greedy... lol!

I think your solutions are pretty good.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow Warriors Update    Shadow Warriors Update  Icon_minitimeFri 3 May 2019 - 4:55

I wouldn't mind allowing the bind to work on any sized model but reduce the str test to 1d6 for everybody. When model breaks binding he can't run or charge that turn but otherwise free to move and act. No stun condition, and add stipulation that attacking bound model breaks the binding.

Want to bind him and trust it to hold? Ignore him and don't attack. Just let him be out of the fight til he can break the binding.

Maybe lower difficulty to 7 or so since this would be a pretty decent nerf.
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