Spiky Mutants in Close Combat

The Spines mutation causes an automatic S1 hit on any enemy model in base contact at the start of close combat phase. That is before the model's attacks right?

So does that mean that if this model is fighting against a single warrior in CC, if the spines knock down or stun my opponent, I can then attack and take them OOA?

I don't have the rules with me at the moment, but I believe there is a rule saying that a single model can't stun/KD an opponent and then take advantage of them being stunned/KD. From memory the example given is a Saurus bite that strikes last, but would apply equally to, for example, a Skaven with a spear in its hands and tail-fighting holding a sword or anyone with a mithril weapon and a normal weapon.

Quote :

So does that mean that if this model is fighting against a single warrior in CC, if the spines knock down or stun my opponent, I can then attack and take them OOA?

No you may not as all of this will occur in one combat phase, see below.

Mordheim Rulebook PDF Part I, 2005, p.21 wrote:

attacking stunned
and knocked down warriors

Note that a model with multiple attacks may not
stun/knock down and then automatically take a
warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand
combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to
have more than one of your models attacking the
same enemy. So, if the enemy is stunned/knocked
down by the first warrior, he can be hit and put out of
action by the next warrior to attack.
If your model is engaged in close combat with an
enemy who is still standing, he cannot attack any
other models that are stunned or knocked down,
since in reality they will not pose an immediate threat
to him and their companions will try to protect them.

 In the original published rulebook this rule appears right below the rule titled warriors stunned and above moving from combat.

There are a number of ways that your example with Spines can be achieved in the basic rules (as Lord 0 notes).

Von Kurst's position matches mine and is therefore correct .

Given the phrasing "The only way you can achieve this is to have more than one of your models attacking the same enemy" I'd agree with Lord 0 & Von Kurst... which almost seems like a shame.

Of course, your gaming group is free to pick whatever adjustments they like to try & get the best possible use out of spikes.

Spikes really don't need any boosting - they are pretty powerful as it is. Not, of course, because of the damage they cause standing warriors, but because they auto-hit stunned and knocked-down warriors even if there are still standing opponents. Heck, they don't even have to spend any of their attacks to do it.

If you really *must* make them stronger then just allowing them to count as a weapon and therefore be poisoned makes them quite a bit stronger. YMMV, but for calibration, my group found it a bit too powerful and we are mostly powergamers.

For what it is worth, we also experimented with getting rid of the rule that Rhydderch quoted and made it so that a model with different I attacks *could* stun and then OOA an opponent, but we found that this made melee combat even more deadly and fickle so most games became shooting duels and therefore less fun. Well, for us. Feel free to try it out yourselves, of course .

Lord 0 wrote:

Spikes really don't need any boosting - they are pretty powerful as it is. Not, of course, because of the damage they cause standing warriors, but because they auto-hit stunned and knocked-down warriors even if there are still standing opponents. Heck, they don't even have to spend any of their attacks to do it.

That is an excellent point, & one that had not occurred to me. I'm now very tempted to make up a spiky mutant or two.

Yeah, they are pretty cool. In fact, for a while there we were thinking of possibly *de-buffing* spines just because they were so good. The reason we thought that is because everyone that played a Cult warband would always take spines when they were building a proper Possessed model (not just a place-holder Possessed i.e. one with no mutations).

In the end we decided not to because there were too many balancing weaknesses in the warband as a whole and the Possessed in particular (e.g. no armour or weapons) so we left them RAW.

They are somewhat weak as a single mutation, but very strong as a supporting mutation. Scorpion tail, Spines, and a double-handed weapon is a combo I have seen used to good effect.

Thanks for the clarification guys.

Lord 0 wrote:

Spikes really don't need any boosting - they are pretty powerful as it is. Not, of course, because of the damage they cause standing warriors, but because they auto-hit stunned and knocked-down warriors even if there are still standing opponents. Heck, they don't even have to spend any of their attacks to do it.

I hadn't thought about that either. That does make them more powerful than I thought, especially since spines work in your opponent's close combat phase as well as your own.

The only issue I have with the Spikes is, if the enemy model has a T3 or T4, you still have to roll a 6 to wound. (I wish I had better luck rolling 6s.) Personally, I'd rather spend the gold on an Extra Arm or Scorpion Tail. I'd have a better of wounding with a lower roll.

Yes but as noted above you auto hit stunned opponents in base to base...

If you pick up some Dark Venom your spines will wound on 5+ vs T3 models...
You might need a house-rule on that though. It is late so I don't remember if that is RAW or not.

*One good night's sleep later...*
Awake me remembers that you will absolutely have to house-rule that.

Old post, but I've never tought about adding venom to the spikes! sounds really cool, but yeah, I would house ruled it and not allowing it to prevent strange OP combos.

I play Possed quite often, and Spikes is one of the best and most underrated mutations, IMO. It's cheap, strikes first so it's both offensive and defensive, and even suits from a "cheap" swepper mutant to a multiple mutation possesed powerhouse.

It works just fine without any buff because it's one of the best mutations, and doesn't need any debuff because Possed aren't one of the strongest bands by any means and their advantages shoud be preserved.