A New Wood Elf Warband

I've been working on this for quite some time. Would love to know your thoughts.

While there have been dozens of previous attempts to write Elven warbands for Mordheim they have typically all suffered from the same problems. The first and most common has been that they have been overpowered; the second that they have had too many unecessary special rules. The third issue has generally come from attempts to tone down the overpowered nature of the Elves – and that is that they have moved away from how Elves should be. Their base statline is in part responsible for them being commonly overpowered, in that initiative and movement are far more valuable in Mordheim than in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, but it is also what makes them Elves, and I don't believe that changing it is the right way to balance them. [further notes in the .pdf file]

Kindred of the Asrai

You need to set the file as public man.

Hmm. As far as I can see it is set to public. Does this work any better? https://www.dropbox.com/s/85q0g5cjg88xto3/Kindred%20of%20the%20Asrai%20Warband.pdf?dl=0

That one works better for me, at least .

Um. You can have a max 6 unit but only has the right to hire 5 ?

Twilight  of   the   Asrai: So your band can not die, but from a dying race? Why is that?

With a max of 5 unit means you will be always outnumbered. after 2 unit you will  has to roll rout out.
Cheap units like squig, zombies and warhounds can over run you and shield the second wave which will be the heroes.

+ Ithilmar is not aviable for wood elves?

I like the spells!

Did you do some playtesting against Skaven (or other fast, numerous warbands)? How did it go? I would assume you can't shoot enough to get them to rout before they reach you.

I suggest a look at The Sealed City's Troll Brood. They use a similar concept of encouraging small warbands (at start) and work realy well. Maybe you can adapt some rules.

http://sealedcity.blogspot.de/p/downloads.html

Athanatosz wrote:

Um. You can have a max 6 unit but only has the right to hire 5 ?

As it stands yes. As explained in the notes at the end I haven't yet worked out the best way to introduce an extra hero mid campaign without TLGT. Perhaps it will be better to allow them to start with six heroes (but I think that may be OP in terms of income, especially with low numbers to pay upkeep for), or maybe it will necessitate the reintroduction of a henchmen group. Or, something new entirely.

Athanatosz wrote:

Twilight  of   the   Asrai: So your band can not die, but from a dying race? Why is that?

The background premise is based on the idea the Elves live so long and have remarkable powers of healing. The flipside being that their numbers are few and their population is dwindling (hence no henchmen). I can see this rule being very contentious, but with such low numbers, max T3, no strength skills and no armour this warband is extremely vulnerable to being absolutely minced and a with such low numbers a single bad battle and some bad rolls on the inury table could pretty much wipe them out. I like the idea of them being vulnerable on the battlefield but being able to recover off it. Perhaps playtesting will show the rule to be too strong, and maybe it would work better as a save against serious injury.

Athanatosz wrote:

With a max of 5 unit means you will be always outnumbered. after 2 unit you will  has to roll rout out.
Cheap units like squig, zombies and warhounds can over run you and shield the second wave which will be the heroes.

Yep, that's intended to be the challenge of this warband. They have good movement, initiative, skills which play to avoidance and access to magic which can slow or distract their enemies, until the moment is right to strike. It's in the early stages of playtesting and it's certainly possible I've gone too far in terms of low model count, but I'd prefer to start from this point and add models back in if necessary.

Athanatosz wrote:

+  Ithilmar is not aviable for wood elves?

I've always seen it as a High Elven thing. The Asrai have their own materials born of the forest. I wouldn't really have a problem adding it back in if it was felt necessary though.

Alrik wrote:

I like the spells!

Thanks, I really enjoyed writing them! I cut them down from a shortlist (longlist) of about thirty but I think these ones have the best blend of flavour and utlity.

Alrik wrote:

Did you do some playtesting against Skaven (or other fast, numerous warbands)? How did it go? I would assume you can't shoot enough to get them to rout before they reach you.

It's early stages of playtesting. So far they've mostly being overwhelmed in combat or suffered from massed missile fire or the odd lucky hit. I think that is in part because they require a lot of skill to use effectively, and I'm still getting used to the warband. I'd like to play quite a few more games before I conclude they're too weak and power them up.

Alrik wrote:

I suggest a look at The Sealed City's Troll Brood. They use a similar concept of encouraging small warbands (at start) and work realy well. Maybe you can adapt some rules.

http://sealedcity.blogspot.de/p/downloads.html

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Thanks for the answers.

The armour questions was there, because my own lack of fluff knowledge. 
The Twilight  of   the   Asrai seems a bit odd me even after your reasoning.
What if one of your heroes or the leader  becomes captured and/or sold to the pits.?
-as the rules goes only vampires can be re-recruited...

The warband has to count a minimum of 3 warriors out of 5 (6) max. what if 2-3 has to miss the game due to his/her injuries?


for low unit count i really suggest the 12 max unit count.  5 Starting heroes and 2-3 henchman type. Fill 1 or 2 with companion animals if you want to uphold the low elf count.

Athanatosz wrote:

for low unit count i really suggest the 12 max unit count.  5 Starting heroes and 2-3 henchman type. Fill 1 or 2 with companion animals if you want to uphold the low elf count.

That's a very interesting compromise. Just no cheap cannonfodder, please!

I like the thought you put into this and especially your unwillingness to make these overpowered. I'll just go over this from top to bottom and write down what comes to my mind.

Wary:
- how many elven-HS are there? Ranger, Mage, ... could be quite a bit. DE technically allowed?
- there is something like Weapon Master skill for shooting, might want to mention that one as well (forgot name)
- Misc equipment no problem? What about drugs/poisons? What about dogs for every hero? Makes for a big warband.

Asrai Mage
- doesn't need the Leader rule so far, everyone's at Ld8. Maybe in some weird scenario...
- armour mentioned (the toughened leathers?). I thought no armour? And especially not for mages?

Wardancer
- tattoo, not tatoo
- so with dodge, he doesn't have and improved dodge-save AND another 6+ save? Just a 4+ dodge?

Scouts
- armour again

Equipment list
there are stars behind elven longbow and cloak, but the stars aren't explained later (or did I miss it?)

Bladestaff
How often/ when do you get to decide about the A-S thing?

Gladewood Longbow
is not an improved elven longbow and therefore doesn't shoot as far as one?

Artefacts
I didn't read through them, just the intro. If one should roll a dice, there should be six possible results and they should be numbered 1-6 (I KNOW that the acorn should be 2 and one could just reroll 5s and 6es or use a foursides die, but you know, for the sake of it)
On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to me why they should have their own table. If they cannot use the common stuff, fine, if they find it, their bad. But how come they should find something else instead? Are the Acorns for example laying next to a common artefact and the lucky finder gets to choose, puts the other stuff back?
In the end, I hardly ever experience someone finding an artefact so you probably put lots of work into a page that is used very rarely. That's a shame.

Lore
- Favour: that one can be insanely efficient in scenarios where it's clear where combat is going to be (defend the find) and you springbloomed a wood in just that place

Roots: maybe I mix it up with a spell from the shadow warriors list, but isn't a strengh-test with 2d6? Keeps a vampire out of a whole game...

Lure: you don't mak friends with this one but the last sentence tones it down imo.

Mist: does the Ini- and shooting thing count for the elves as well?

Wrath: may only be cast once or cast once successfully?

I do not know much about wood elves. But for henchman animals:

Bear for heavy hitter, or for a classical larg and scary troop

Wild Boar for a charger type

And Wolfs for something akin to war hounds.

Thanks for taking the time to go through it so thoroughly, I knew there'd be things I'd missed and things that weren't clear

Grimscull wrote:

Wary:
- how many elven-HS are there? Ranger, Mage, ... could be quite a bit. DE technically allowed?
- there is something like Weapon Master skill for shooting, might want to mention that one as well (forgot name)
- Misc equipment no problem? What about drugs/poisons? What about dogs for every hero? Makes for a big warband.

- I was thinking only of the Ranger and the Mage. There was be more. I should probably specifically disallow Dark Elves. The hired swords are expensive though, and you'd only have several late campaign so I don't think it would imbalance them as they'd still only have max. 6 warband members while everyone else will have 12-20 plus HS.

- You're right, I think it's called weapons training, should be treated in the same way.

- Drugs/Poisons absolutely yes. I've always found it odd that some Wood Elf warbands disallow them. The goody-two-shoes-won't-touch-that-nasty- stuff attitude is for the high elves. The wood elves in the most recent incarnations are much dark, neither good nor evil and live in a forest full of mad plants. If anyone in the Old World uses poision it should be them. Dogs were also intentionally left in, and their availabiity was also the reason I didn't add any animal henchmen, since they are already available.

Grimscull wrote:

Asrai Mage
- doesn't need the Leader rule so far, everyone's at Ld8. Maybe in some weird scenario...
- armour mentioned (the toughened leathers?). I thought no armour? And especially not for mages?

- Leader rule is standard for all leaders, and it's possible he might get an Ld advance. I think Dwarf Treasure Hunters are exactly the same.
- An oversight. Should be no armour.

Grimscull wrote:

Wardancer
- tattoo, not tatoo  
- so with dodge, he doesn't have and improved dodge-save AND another 6+ save? Just a 4+ dodge?

Scouts
- armour again

- I thought it was more elegant and less dice rolling to have them stack rather than 2  dice rolls, so yes.
- scouts are allowed toughened leathers as the only armour on their equipment list.

Grimscull wrote:

Equipment list
there are stars behind elven longbow and cloak, but the stars aren't explained later (or did I miss it?)

Bladestaff
How often/ when do you get to decide about the A-S thing?

Gladewood Longbow
is not an improved elven longbow and therefore doesn't shoot as far as one?

- Stars should have a note explaining a cheaper cost at start-up. Must have lost it in formatting.
- Bladestaff. Good question. Each round of combat I think. I imagine it being a very fluid weapon.
- This was taken from another list, and that was the rule there. An upgrade on the Elf Bow would make more sense. Would S4 at 18" short range be too strong?

Grimscull wrote:

Artefacts
I didn't read through them, just the intro. If one should roll a dice, there should be six possible results and they should be numbered 1-6 (I KNOW that the acorn should be 2 and one could just reroll 5s and 6es or use a foursides die, but you know, for the sake of it)
On the other hand, it doesn't make sense to me why they should have their own table. If they cannot use the common stuff, fine, if they find it, their bad. But how come they should find something else instead? Are the Acorns for example laying next to a common artefact and the lucky finder gets to choose, puts the other stuff back?
In the end, I hardly ever experience someone finding an artefact so you probably put lots of work into a page that is used very rarely. That's a shame.  

- Yeah, I'd originally intended to write six, and may still do so but haven't come up with six I was 100% happy with (out of the twenty or so I did come up with!). Should be expained, as you say for clarity.

- The premise was that the Elves wouldn't use the common stuff because it was imbued with magic that was foreign to them. I specifically wrote the items to be dull and non-descript in appearance, so that another warband finding them would discard them without realising their power. the arrows perhaps are an exception to this but essentially the others are: an acorn, a shabby brown cloak, a dull green-grey stone and

- Yeah, in Mordheim certainly that's true but in other settings artefacts are sometimes more common. It was a bit of work but it was so much fun!

Grimscull wrote:

Lore
- Favour: that one can be insanely efficient in scenarios where it's clear where combat is going to be (defend the find) and you springbloomed a wood in just that place

Roots: maybe I mix it up with a spell from the shadow warriors list, but isn't a strengh-test with 2d6? Keeps a vampire out of a whole game...

Lure: you don't mak friends with this one but the last sentence tones it down imo.

Mist: does the Ini- and shooting thing count for the elves as well?

Wrath: may only be cast once or cast once successfully?

- Hmm. Yeah, the Favour/Springbloom combo is quite good, but the woods do scatter so you can't usually but them exactly where you want. Maybe they should scatter further. Or perhaps be determined before the objective building is chosen? Or maybe the placement of the wood should be entirely random?

- Roots: I'm pretty sure a strength test has always been d6. With one always a pass and six always a fail. If this is the case I don't think it's too strong. Will clarify.

Lure: The Ld test means it's hard to cast successfully on something like a vampire (though could be pretty effective on a troll!). It's designed to mess up plans by dragging someone out of cover, away from an objective, into combat with your strongest warrior (or away from combat with a weaker one) or maybe force them to make a risky diving charge.

Mist: both the shooting modifier and the initiative modifier also effect friendly models. The idea being that with their high values for both they'll be better able to deal with the conditions, while enemies will struggle to spot them hiding and massed low BS shooting will suffer. It's essentially a spell to get the Elves into combat. Being able to approach with less chance of being shot, and being able to force all alone tests even when outnumbered should make it tempting, as I didn't want this to be a purely avoidance and shooting warband: just one that needs to pick it's fights, and pick the right time to strike.

Wrath: once sucessfully was the intention.

What do you think of the casting values?

Played two battles this afternoon with the latest rules. Routed a ghoul-heavy undead in a skirmish and lost to a Marienburg mob in a streetfight.

Rather than rolling a spell I took "Forest's Favour, Forest's Fury" in both battles as I felt is was the spell that might have the most potential for abuse. Only managed to cause one wound with it over two battles (though it was on the vampire), and didn't heal anybody. So, early days but nothing gamebreaking as yet.

Could only afford three bows so shooting was fairly ineffective. The Elves are pretty handy in combat with the bladestaffs though, and the wardancer was the star player in both games, charging in alone to fairly devastating effect. He was charged by three ghouls (bad movement on my part), but took two OOA before being brought down by the third and a dreg who joined the party late. He rolled dead, but the "Twilight of the Asrai" re-roll saved him. One of the reasons I put this rule in was to encourage the Elves not to shy away from combat, and I certainly think I'd be a little more circumspect without it. It would need a longer campaign to ascertain whether it's too much though I think.

Being so heavily outnumbered hurt me in the streetfight, where things were a little more congested, but less so in the skirmish. Things might have been a little different though if the undead hadn't routed when they did.

Possible solutions to some of the warbands issues.
add in henchmen but limit the number of warband members to 8.
Adding in animals to up the number of figures without them being kick arse elves.