Dark Elves

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In addition to this all armours give an armour save against serious injuries.

Oof! Depending on what warbands feature in a campaign, this can be totally insane unfair house rule. For starters your Amazons and Battle Monks of Cathay fight naked! Armour varies from faction to faction. There's only one published means to overturn the death of any Hero that I'm aware of. The principal of undying Heroes makes for poor narratives. Death of a leader being 'undone' to avoid campaign player from quitting in a huff is a last resort to appease a bad loser.

There is a lot of hogwash being posting about cloaks not stacking with armour. Look to your source material for definition. Here is the final word on cloaks from the 'Loremaster' Gav Thorpe;



Regards,

Werekin

uhmmm... thats warhammer fantasy battle. not Mordheim.
the rules on that posting arent even the same as the Dark Elf list posted in TC 12! Different name, different entry, and different armor values completely.

Again, it doesnt matter where the rules are meant to come from, or what fluff supports a rule, you cant justify rules issues in Mordheim based on a *SIMILAR* rule Fantasy battle.

werekin wrote:

Quote :

In addition to this all armours give an armour save against serious injuries.

Oof! Depending on what warbands feature in a campaign, this can be totally insane unfair house rule. For starters your Amazons and Battle Monks of Cathay fight naked! Armour varies from faction to faction. There's only one published means to overturn the death of any Hero that I'm aware of. The principal of undying Heroes makes for poor narratives. Death of a leader being 'undone' to avoid campaign player from quitting in a huff is a last resort to appease a bad loser.

It affects Possessed, but we allow neither Amazons nor Battle Monks. But yes, we are aware of the problem. For now it's being tested and so far it works fine. Or: The saves haven't actually saved anyone from injuries so far, but we see a lot more armours...

I'll admit we take the death of a hero to heart - but once: We had quite a party when my slayer died, fulfilling his vow

Actually, we did have one Vampire, who were saved from serious injury, by a light armour, once

However, as I do play possessed right now I can add (as mentioned in another topic) that warbands unable to wear armour was meant, to have this flaw, to make up for other merits.
As armours originally made little or no sense, there was no flaw to speak of.
However, we do allow rabbit's feet to re-roll serious injury, to make things even more balanced. Remember, that we currently play a "test" campaign, and therefore need to see some progress, to test possible unforeseen late game issues How we end up ruling one thing or another depends entirely on how we feel after this "Fleckendorff" adventure

Shelena wrote:

Guys? Can you please make your posts a bit less domestic?

It's interesting to hear if you believe you have managed to balance the Dark Elves (how and why). And equally so if you believe you have nerfed them too much (what and why). And - with my own DE adventures in mind - I would love to hear how much of their misfortune you ascribe to lack of luck.

Sorry, about it getting out of hand, Haha. I'm sure that was not any of our intentions.

we liked to allow rabbit foot only during the game to encourage jump attacks or other funny situations.

We had the save against injuries for a while, but moved the save from armor to another use of healing herbs. Instead of healing a model full during battle you could use it to reroll a result on the injury tabel (if it is not robbed, because then it is gone before you could use it :-P ).

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Different name, different entry, and different armor values completely.

Different names!? Someone has been chewing the mandrake root... Sea Dragon Cloak does whatever Gav Thorpe says it does.

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Again, it doesnt matter where the rules are meant to come from, or what fluff supports a rule, you cant justify rules issues in Mordheim based on a *SIMILAR* rule Fantasy battle.

What a load of balderdash!

Infidels please take note that Mordheim was based on Warhammer Fifth Edition rules.

funny, i dont remember Knocked down, or Stunned rolls in Warhammer 5th edition. guess I missed that chapter.

I guess in your gaming groups its acceptable to pick and choose which grey areas are defined by the "parent" game, and which ones arent. but in my group and gaming club, we tend to err on the side of logic and reason, and none of us see any logic in the arguement of "well that game over there did it this way... so I guess thats how this game must be!"


So, logically..., if she weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.
... And therefore ...
A witch!

While you do have a point Zekk (and I would agree if we debated some other game) the Mordheim rules are (In my opinion), in several cases, best understood with "Warhammer glasses" on.
I think we can all agree that the rules (core as well as Towncryer/other expansions) have some caping holes. And the way I see it, there are usually two way to handle these. Either make up house rules trying to guess what the authors meant, or use other GW games (Warhammer and Necromunda) as duck tape.

The core rules didn't state any limitations on equipment what so ever, and while the errata gave us a weapon limit, there where never an official ruling, limiting the amount of cloaks or pieces of head gear a model can wear.
As, through out the core rules and the expansion there are several cloaks, and in our group we ruled that a person could wear one of these. That is however, in strictest sense, a house rule

As the name states that the Sea Dragon Cloak, is in fact a cloak, I'm lead to understand that it can be combined with armour, just like elven cloak, wolf cloak, cathayan silk cloak or forrest cloak.

Weather its balanced or not is a whole other argument

The Mordheimer version of the Druchii List explicitely states that Sea Dragon Cloaks stack with Light Armor and Shields. I don`t have the experience to judge if this is a good idea or not.

Quote:
Sea Dragon Cloak; 35+2D6 gc; Availability: Rare 10
Dark Elf Corsairs use special cloaks fashioned from the skin and scales of the sea monsters that dwell deep in the oceans depths. These cloaks are tough and resilient, and offer Dark Elves a very good amount of protection.
Special Rule - Scales: The wearer of the Sea Dragon receives a +2 bonus to his save against shooting (or in the event where he has none, a 5+ save) and a +1 bonus to his save in close combat (or, if he has none, a 6+ save). A Sea Dragon Cloak may be combined with other pieces of armor (shield, light armor) with no penalty.

Link: http://www.mordheimer.com/warbands/experimental/druchii.htm

On the question of stacking SDC with armour:

I think the problem lies there that there seems to be a mistake in the TC12 Dark Elf rules. I know that I am making guesses but good ones haha, so lets see:

In warhammer the SDC grants +1 AS in CC and +2 against shooting and can stack with armour.

In mortheim they seemly intended to use it exactly the same but made a fusion with a LA ALREADY ATTACHED TO IT, but they nowhere stated so. It's not astonishing at all if you think at how poorly they stated other rules.

But to me it seems really plausible:

1) the TC12 SDC grants exactly the same AS as LA + SDC in warhammer would grant. I know its a different game, but don't tell me they didnt develop Mordheim strongly with warhammer in mind.

2) the price implies the same at 50 + 2D6(iirc): 20 for the light armour + about 30 for the SDC. why not?


I guess the guys on druchii.net interpret it the same way, so they split the SDC from its "invisible" armour both stat wise and what prices are concerned.

the druchii.net list sets 35+2D6 for the SDC alone. so this is roughly the TC12 SDC without the stats and price of the LA.

and it only grants +1/+2 AS.


So the SDC can theoretically stack with armour (and it did so by being melted with the LA), but now can't do so anymore, as the light armour is already included in the TC12 SDC.

Lol this sounds like some conspiracy theories but I'm actually serious about it.


EDIT: The author of the original TC12 Dark Elf list made a revision some years ago. And in his revised list the sdc is exactly the way it is in the druchii.net list.
I take this as a strong hint, that he melted LA and SDC in the TC12 version and split it in the revised version.

Sorry for my language I'm in quite a hurry. I hope I am still being clear

or a simple solution: just use the druchii.net version of the SDC and stack it with armour as intended. problem solved