| Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? | |
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+13playtable Angron Da Bank Rudeboy whisper2053 Ezekiel wyldhunt Bash sartori cianty MonkeyShaman Fungomungus Snappy_Dresser 17 posters |
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Snappy_Dresser Captain
Posts : 77 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-09-28 Age : 47 Location : Vancouver, Canada
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Sun 10 Jan 2010 - 23:55 | |
| I was playing the Wyrdstone Hunt scenario last night and my opponent (I love the guy, but he's rather beardy sometimes) Trots his Warhound up, grabs the Wyrdstone, and dashes in to cover. Now I'm pretty sure this is not allowed, but couldn't find the rule (and since I was playing, couldn't really pull the "because that's the way it is card"). Somebody please (pretty please) help me out and return sanity to my life. | |
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Fungomungus General
Posts : 199 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-07-14 Location : Bandon, OR USA
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 0:11 | |
| In scenarion 3 in the core book, wyrdstone hunt, it says, " Warriors can pick up the counters simply by moving into contact with them (wyrd). A warrior can carry any amount.." I doesn't say anything, but warriors, I would say no a dog cant, but then is a dog a warrior? Id say yes, so then I would have to say according to the rules yes it can "fetch" the stone. | |
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Fungomungus General
Posts : 199 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-07-14 Location : Bandon, OR USA
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 0:15 | |
| But then in Scenario 7: Hidden treasure, it saya All warriors ( not animals) in the warband can inspect... yadda yadda yadda, any man-size model may pick it up (the chest)..ect.
So idk hahah | |
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MonkeyShaman General
Posts : 184 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-02-09 Age : 37 Location : la casa del Muerte: el stockholmo
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Undead Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 0:31 | |
| if the dog isn't trained to be an inside out tentacle houndfiend with a chicken head no, no it can not. and calling that beardy is just silly. beardy is when you use unnecessarily large amounts of steamtanks and organguns to kill zombies, getting non sentient beings to grab and/or hold objectives is not.
The warhound is a warrior as much as a sniffer dog is a criminal investigator.
Even if you made up a rule where the dog can fetch stuff it still needs to be able to fight with a tiny sharp shard of wyrdstone in it's mouth without swallowing it and turning into the spawn from planet X or dropping it. (on top of that you generally wouldn't want skin contact with the stuff let alone putting it in your mouth right?) | |
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Snappy_Dresser Captain
Posts : 77 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-09-28 Age : 47 Location : Vancouver, Canada
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 2:18 | |
| While I agree with your sentiment, Monkey Shaman. I'm kind of looking for something more than your opinion why this is. The "warrior" entry was kind of what I was thinking (animals aren't warriors).
And pressing an interpretation of a situation or rule that favors you unjustly when logic/the spirit of the rule is obviously not it is the very essence of Beardy (or "the programmer approach" as I like to call it). | |
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MonkeyShaman General
Posts : 184 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-02-09 Age : 37 Location : la casa del Muerte: el stockholmo
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Undead Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 3:25 | |
| when my zombies are killed by steamtanks and organguns I'd call it an unfair advantage. jokes aside there are loads of funny and/ or insulting phrases for maximizing your warband efficiency within the framework. (powergaming cheese etc) there's a difference between what we (in my group) consider not holding back(maxed shaggyhided double greataxe wielding Beastmen chieftans that consequently tries to permanently kill off enemy heroes, this in many cases called powergaming by others as we've removed the silk gloves even in a campaign setting where that could mean the definite end of the warband) and the far end of silly because what you describe would in that case enable you to use a land raider or a titan as not once is it mentioned in the rulebook that you can't. Not to mention that it doesn't state a cost meaning it's free and not once does it say that it can't capture objectives. sounds more like loophole hunting. (and if you call that programmer gaming something or other that is just insulting programmers everywhere as thats how a five year old(whos probably beaten on a regular basis) would play it.) on the other hand if he wants to waste the exp on a wardog you should let him. points of reasoning would be if the attackdog actually knows its supposed to fetch the wyrdstone or perhaps that it can't fight during the rest of the game. (thats a fun one though you could test to see what it does if it fights anyway, 1-3 the shard is lost 4-6 it swallows it and tests for mutation or instant death) thats also a good way to resolve any unsure ruling if your group isn't into improvised house rules either pick odds(1,3,5) or evens(2,4,6) or highs(6-4) or a lows(3-1) and let the D6 decide till the game is resolved. or roll one each for that matter | |
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Snappy_Dresser Captain
Posts : 77 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-09-28 Age : 47 Location : Vancouver, Canada
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
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cianty Honour Guard
Posts : 5287 Trading Reputation : 5 Join date : 2007-09-27 Location : Berlin
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Monks (BTB) Achievements earned: Silver Tom
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 8:57 | |
| Snappy/Monkey, we're not seeing this getting outta hand, are we? Animals are indeed 'warriors'. In the rulebook warrior is the fluffy term for "model", meant to cover all warband members. However, this should not be the reason to leave out common sense and apply rules lawyering at all costs. From what I know this has not yet been officially ruled. The way I see it is that this was forgotten in the rulebook, an oversight, not intention. I will get back to you with an official answer soon. | |
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sartori General
Posts : 183 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-14 Age : 50 Location : Tacoma, WA USA
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Undead Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 9:48 | |
| I just had this come up in my campaign tonight, and I wasn't sure what to do about it. We ended up letting it slide, as the dog "fetched" the piece of wyrdstone... Might sound or look funny, but doesn't mean people need to get angry at each other over it. | |
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Bash Champion
Posts : 44 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-07-10 Age : 34 Location : Eersel, The Netherlands
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Ogres (BTB) Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 13:05 | |
| i dont think they can, i thought animals could never pick up any battlefield objectives it also doesnt make sense fluffwise (eating it is not good for hte doggy) and we usually go by what makes sense in the fluff with my gaming group. | |
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wyldhunt Elder
Posts : 355 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-06-20 Location : Eau Claire, WI
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 14:05 | |
| We've also not found anything officially "rules as written" to prevent animals from picking up wyrdstone, nor even chests and ladders. That's why we wrote our house rules to specifically exclude animals from doing so. As stated before on this thread, yes, a warhound/giant rat/etc could pick up a piece of wyrdstone in its mouth. But then what of a warhound's attack (which I always imagine as a bite)? MonkeyShaman is right on the money here. Well, OK for warhounds. But what about horses? We've seen trained horses do pretty amazing things, and they can definitely attack with their hooves, so holding a wyrdstone in its mouth shouldn't be too much trouble while doing so. Ah, gotta remember whether bridled horses could - I don't have that much familiarity with bridled horses, so will have to leave that with someone else. Andy Tabor made a scenario where War Boars swallowed wyrdstone and mutated (Roundup at the Mordheim Corral), and Jim Weaver did the same in a scenario with Giant Rats (The Rat Race). Especially due to this, I again agree with MonkeyShaman's interpretation - shallowing wyrdstone leads to mutation (random mutation, otherwise chaos-aligned warriors would eat the stuff for breakfast, and not even Grey Seers do that!). All of this is why we've made it simple - animals can't pick up objects. Ruling otherwise makes things more complex, and in this, we don't find value in the additional complexity. | |
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Ezekiel Venerable Ancient
Posts : 909 Trading Reputation : 5 Join date : 2008-02-05 Age : 40 Location : Amsterdam
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Merchants (BTB) Achievements earned: None
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 14:22 | |
| I didn't even know it wasn't official... we also rule that they can't pick up anything, nor loot, nor move up ladders (stairs is different though)
perhaps you can house rule that they may, and on every turn roll a die, on a 1 and 2 they mutate immediately, turning them into chaoshounds? - and evil! ? | |
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whisper2053 Captain
Posts : 64 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-09 Age : 45 Location : Missouri
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Restless Dead (BTB) Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 15:23 | |
| But then that would be a boon to Beastmen and Possessed...buy up a cheap warhound...boom, instant free upgrade.
I think wyldhunt has the right of it. Additional complexity in this case is to be avoided by keeping things simple and just disallowing animal pickups altogether. | |
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Rudeboy Elder
Posts : 360 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-01 Age : 45
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Restless Dead (BTB) Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 16:26 | |
| We always played that Animals cannot pick-up items, so hounds, boars, cold ones, Squigs, wolves, etc... cannot pick-up any items. | |
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Snappy_Dresser Captain
Posts : 77 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-09-28 Age : 47 Location : Vancouver, Canada
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Mon 11 Jan 2010 - 22:12 | |
| - sartori wrote:
- I just had this come up in my campaign tonight, and I wasn't sure what to do about it. We ended up letting it slide, as the dog "fetched" the piece of wyrdstone...
Might sound or look funny, but doesn't mean people need to get angry at each other over it. That's what we went with n the day too (they're Witch Hunters, they need all the help they can get), but it still sticks in my craw. An official ruling would be appreciated. In the meantime, I think I'll just house rule it out. | |
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Da Bank Rules Guru
Posts : 1927 Trading Reputation : 3 Join date : 2008-01-26
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Achievements earned: None
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Tue 12 Jan 2010 - 17:45 | |
| Animals.... especially dogs, monkeys, cats, chickens, bears, dire wolves, wolves, lizards, birds and etc can not pick up wyrdstone. It was covered in an FAQ on the old mordheim forum but that was lost. There are many terms in the book that are used loosely. As noted by others it would make for an interesting HOUSE RULE. | |
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Da Bank Rules Guru
Posts : 1927 Trading Reputation : 3 Join date : 2008-01-26
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Achievements earned: None
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Tue 12 Jan 2010 - 18:15 | |
| I forgot to mention horses, mules, war horses, boars, and or anything else mentioned under "Blazing Saddle" Rules. | |
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Angron Warrior
Posts : 23 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-18
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 8:21 | |
| Dogs can climb ladders, fences, gates, etc, as witnessed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnGIo1zpufEAlso, while we all like to imagine a dogs attack as a bite, it;s furst attack is most likely a dive, followed by attacking with his front paws, and only biting when going for the coup de grace even when muzzled a vicious dog can be extremly dangerous, and in this case, theoretically, it could drop the wyrdstone, bite your throat, then pick back up the wyrdstone. After all, we're trying to apply logic to a game in which there are battle nuns, wizards, goat headed men, and rats that walk upright :-P
Last edited by Angron on Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 8:27; edited 1 time in total | |
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Angron Warrior
Posts : 23 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-18
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 8:24 | |
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Snappy_Dresser Captain
Posts : 77 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-09-28 Age : 47 Location : Vancouver, Canada
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Possessed Achievements earned: none
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 8:57 | |
| After some reflection (and witnessing a dog pick up a full wine bottle and trot down the street), I've decided on a slightly more nuanced house rule. Animals can handle objects (unless expressly forbidden), and maybe climb ladders if they pass a Ld check. This reflects the fact that some animals are smarter/better trained than others.
It was a slow day at work. | |
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Angron Warrior
Posts : 23 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-18
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 9:16 | |
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Da Bank Rules Guru
Posts : 1927 Trading Reputation : 3 Join date : 2008-01-26
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Achievements earned: None
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 13:23 | |
| For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO. | |
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Guest Guest
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 13:39 | |
| - Da Bank wrote:
- For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO.
I agree. You gotta keep it simple. Then you can always ask yourself how hazardous to ones health it is to have a wyrdstone in your mouth. Like chewing a gum made from active uranium. |
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Angron Warrior
Posts : 23 Trading Reputation : 0 Join date : 2009-12-18
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 19:20 | |
| - Opheliate wrote:
- Da Bank wrote:
- For the love of Sigmar NOT every dog can climb a ladder, those are TRAINED dogs. Or in other words a skill. There are dogs that can climb fences and trees but can ever dog?? No, those are very special dogs. There is no way in the world anyone can justify that ever single dog in MOrdheim can do all these tricks. Heck, there are dogs that are trained to smell if someone has cancer but does this mean that your dog in MOrdheim can smell you and heal you? NO.
I agree. You gotta keep it simple. Then you can always ask yourself how hazardous to ones health it is to have a wyrdstone in your mouth. Like chewing a gum made from active uranium. I'll definatly agree the wyrdstone+mouth contact=bad. However, the arguement tthat the dogs climbing fences and gates are "special dogs" can be countered simply by stating, "if you were going to have a dog in your warbamd, wouldn't it be a "special dog"?" or "Not every dog in mordheim can do these tricks, just the ones in the warbands, more specifically mine." Animals in Mordheim are penalized enough, most never gain experience, most only have 1 attack, and most cost near the price of a regular henchmen. Simply put, animals in Mordheim already aren't worth it. If further penalties occur, games of Mordheim will simply not have any animals in them at all. And that's how it begins. When a game makes one choice so terrible as to essentially completely eliminate it, players start looking for better builds. When a player starts looking for better builds, they decide that they might as well take the best build. Then you have 10 people playing sling skaven, and another 2 playing shadow elves. And then the game of Mordheim in your venue dies, as no one is having any fun anymore. | |
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Da Bank Rules Guru
Posts : 1927 Trading Reputation : 3 Join date : 2008-01-26
Personal Info Primary Warband played: Marienburgers Achievements earned: None
| Subject: Re: Animals can pick up Wyrdstone? Wed 13 Jan 2010 - 20:07 | |
| I would have to disagree with you. I have been playing this way for 10 years and in no way do I feel that this is a hinderance to the game. Let someone play with to Shadow elves and watch them get taken OOA in HTH, and 10 skaven with slings then use a blunderbuss. There are enough tactics to use if people really want to. House rule if you like but the understanding has been made clear. | |
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