Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.


Mordheim Discussion
 
HomeSearchLatest imagesRegisterBlogYou'll never paint aloneLog inGolden Tom 2014 Thread!

 

 Simultaneous rounds

Go down 
+15
wyldhunt
Popmouth
hero
Myntokk
RationalLemming
Master
Matumaros
JohnYoung
Ethlorien
Ezekiel
Asp
DeafNala
StyrofoamKing
magokiron
Eliazar
19 posters
Go to page : Previous  1, 2
AuthorMessage
Master
Veteran
Veteran
Master


Posts : 102
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-03-16
Age : 34

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 21 Mar 2009 - 13:35

That's a great idea!

Should get back to writing those wood elf warbands again.

Anyway you are correct, they probably wouldn't have time.
Back to top Go down
StyrofoamKing
Etheral
Etheral
StyrofoamKing


Posts : 1355
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-02-16
Age : 40
Location : Chantilly, DC

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Pirates (Unofficial) Pirates (Unofficial)
Achievements earned: None

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 23 Mar 2009 - 4:06

Cool. I have a rough Wood Elf band I've been working on, I'll post it tomorrow night. (/End talking about wood elves on this thread.)


As far as the simultaneous rounds, part of me wants to work it into a specific scenario (so you can test it out without commiting to it, or use it as an ice-breaker when giving it to reluctant groups... "oh, if the SCENARIO calls for it, that's okay")

What setting/background would prompt a rapid fight like that? Maybe a variation on Chance Encounter, where all of the warbands bump into each other, with no time to organize attacks or coordinate together? Call it something like the "Cluster" or "The Collision" or something?
Back to top Go down
https://sites.google.com/site/styroheim/
Master
Veteran
Veteran
Master


Posts : 102
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-03-16
Age : 34

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 23 Mar 2009 - 22:07

Perhaps a sudden encounter in a bar? or a catacomb?

They should definately bump into eachother?

We could also explain it more silly with an artifact making time flow in shorter bumps than usually... tongue
Back to top Go down
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral
RationalLemming


Posts : 1483
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 40
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 20 Sep 2009 - 13:07

Ezekiel wrote:
Asp, I see where you come up with the 2 rounds of CC, but the way we played it, you basically got that, as player 1 got his attacks, and then player 2 got his attacks, we just skipped the part where everyone gets to fight back -which is really lengthy in multiplayer battles and besides tends to easily allow you to lose track of who fought and who didn't...


We did however resolve all CC rounds in initiative order, with charging overruling that naturally...

Master wrote:
also, I'm not sure I understand how the example given by ezekiel works. How do you let player 1 get all his attacks and then player 2 while still keeping in initative order?

My gaming group often play games with many players (e.g. four or more) and I am keen to introduce something like this to alleviate people needing to wait a long time between turns with nothing much to do. I'm confused though by the discussion of this method of multiplayer though as I don't understand how there is less CC than in the normal multiplayer rules defined in Chaos on the Streets. Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_scratch

My understanding of normal multiplayer (in a three-player game) is like this.

Player 1 recovery.
P1 moves.
P1 shoots.
CC for P1 and all models in base-to-base contact with P1 models.

P2 recovery.
P2 moves.
P2 shoots.
CC for P2 and all models in base-to-base contact with P2 models.

P3 recovery.
P3 moves.
P3 shoots.
CC for P3 and all models in base-to-base contact with P3 models.

* If P1 has a model that is in CC with a model of P2 then those two models fight in the CC phase for P1 and P2 but not in the CC phase for P3.
* If P1 has model that is engaged in CC with a model of P2 AND a model of P3 then the P1 model fights in the CC phase for P1 against both models and then again in the CC phase for P2 against the P2 model (but not the P3 model) and then in the CC phase for P3 against the P3 model (but not the P2 model).

OK. Now this is my understanding of the method of multiplayer mentioned by Eliazar here. First, each player rolls a dice to determine order of play. To keep things simple, P1 rolls a 6, P2 rolls a 5 and P3 rolls a 4 meaning that P1 goes first and then P2 and then finally P3.

Player 1 recovery.
P2 recovery.
P3 recovery.
(Recovery phase possibly can be done simultaneously by all players instead of done separately??)

P1 moves.
P2 moves.
P3 moves.

P1 shoots.
P2 shoots.
P3 shoots.

CC for P1.
CC for P2.
CC for P3.

Now how is CC for P1 here different from CC for P1 in normal multiplayer? The only way that I can see that this might be different from normal multiplayer is if Initiative is removed from the equation. If this is so then P1 models all attack in CC for P1 and then P2 models all attack in the CC for P2 and then finally P3 models (if any still alive) attack in the CC for P3. Is this how it is done? Yet Ezekial mentioned that Initiative was still used. Therefore I cannot see how CC would work differently from how it does in normal multiplayer (as in my two examples given above). Perhaps I misunderstand the normal multiplayer rules???

Thanks. Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_pirat
Back to top Go down
http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
Myntokk
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient
Myntokk


Posts : 679
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-09-03
Age : 38
Location : California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Possessed Possessed
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 20 Sep 2009 - 22:59

Did you guys nab this idea from GW's Lord of the Rings game? The concept is almost identical, with the only difference as far as I can tell being that close combat is worked out in whatever order the player with the highest priority score chooses, rather than Player 1's combats being worked out, and then Player 2's, and so on and so forth. In Mordheim I'm not really sure that that matters though.

Anyways, I think it's a great idea and I'm not sure why it never crossed my mind to try switching to this engine for Mordheim...

Maybe I'll propose it for our next campaign.

The Simultaneous turn system would also allow for some interesting new skills. One I came up with on the fly would be something like "Voracious Combatant (combat): If all of the model's opponents are knocked down, stunned, or out of action immediately after he has resolved his attacks, he may move up to 4" to join another melee. This does not count as a charge."

Another idea which just popped into my head would be to do away with the players rolling for priority, and instead go in Initiative order across the board (although this may get a tad to chaotic and require a lot of bookkeeping). So first all models with Initiative 7 would move, regardless of who controls them, then Initiative 6, then Initiative 5, and so on. Once everyone had moved, all models with Initiative 7 would shoot, then models with Initiative 6, etc etc. Then in melee all I-7 models make their attacks, followed by all I-6 models, and on and on and you all get the idea.

The biggest complication I can foresee with that concept is that if two models with the same Initiative wanted to charge each other, or one wanted to charge the other while the other wanted to charge someone else, I suppose you'd have to roll off or something.
Back to top Go down
hero
Elder
Elder
avatar


Posts : 310
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-01-06

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 21 Sep 2009 - 2:04

This is a cool idea, I've always been bugged by the quirks of the turn system in Mordheim. Seemed silly that being stunned during your own turn was a death sentence but being stunned in the enemy's turn you had a chance to rescue to beleaguered model.

With my group we've usually played that everybody does "recovery" in every players recovery phase (so you'll never be stunned on your turn and guaranteed OOA on their turn, only if they have another model present doing followup attacks on the turn the model is stunned).

Does rolling to see who moves first each turn really randomize who gets the charge? It seems like it would and that doesn't seem right, but having it based on initiative doesn't really seem right either (as in a system where move order is determined by initiative and thus charges are).

Also it does make it so getting first move in a scenario doesn't matter at all, which might be an issue because the scenarios are balanced around that.

Are there any tested examples of such rules around?
Back to top Go down
Myntokk
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient
Myntokk


Posts : 679
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-09-03
Age : 38
Location : California

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Possessed Possessed
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 21 Sep 2009 - 4:18

hero wrote:
Does rolling to see who moves first each turn really randomize who gets the charge? It seems like it would and that doesn't seem right, but having it based on initiative doesn't really seem right either (as in a system where move order is determined by initiative and thus charges are).
It does randomize who gets the charge, but if you think about it that prevents turtling to an extent. In the standard turn-based rules if you're faster then you typically get to engage the opponent on your terms, but with the randomized priority that's not necessarily the case, which can be refreshing.

hero wrote:
Are there any tested examples of such rules around?
Yeah, Games Workshop's Lord of the Rings battle game uses a very similar system of rules, where the turn is broken down into the movement phase, shooting phase, and combat phase, and each phase is split between the players. At the start of every turn players roll to see who has priority for the round, and in the case of a tie priority goes to whoever did not have it last turn.
Back to top Go down
Popmouth
Ancient
Ancient
Popmouth


Posts : 479
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-12-10
Age : 37
Location : Gothemburg, Sweden

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Kislevites Kislevites
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 21 Sep 2009 - 7:57

How about basing it on the LD then? Seeing that the Leaders ability to lead his (or hers) henchmen should affect how quick your warband moves – thus rolling a D6 and adding the leadership could determine the order.
Back to top Go down
wyldhunt
Elder
Elder
wyldhunt


Posts : 355
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-06-20
Location : Eau Claire, WI

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 23 Sep 2009 - 3:42

Some great ideas here.

For another card-based take on intermixed turns: http://www.tabletop-terrain.com/stu/archives/MordheimSimpleAlternateTurnSequence.txt.

My preference for intermixed turns is based more on the Man O' War feel (love that game!), so a slight modification of the card-based intermixed turns would be:

Preparation: Create activation tokens for each hero and henchmen group in each warband.

Determine player turn order as normal for the scenario played.

Round order:
1. Recovery (in turn order for each warband)
2. Move/shoot. In turn order, each player activates one hero or henchman group, and performs the move/shoot with that group, repeating the process until all have activated.
3. HtH. Perform one HtH round for the entire board.

Even though we've modified the game quite extensively already for our group, I'm not sure the other players are ready for this yet, so this will remain just an idea for me - hmmm, maybe I'll try it out with my son though.

The one complication seen from intermixed unit activations is in disparity of unit numbers, where the Skaven could gain yet another tactical advantage over the Witch Hunters due to numbers - yet since the overloading of numbers happens after regular movement, it won't be quite as noticable as if the overloading happened at the beginning. Yeah, we could calculate and let some of the greater-unit warbands move 2 for the lower-unit warbands' 1, that's more time than I want to spend during a game calculating and remembering this fine point.
Back to top Go down
https://sites.google.com/view/wyldhauntsmordheim
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral
RationalLemming


Posts : 1483
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 40
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 23 Sep 2009 - 6:11

wyldhunt wrote:
Some great ideas here.

For another card-based take on intermixed turns: http://www.tabletop-terrain.com/stu/archives/MordheimSimpleAlternateTurnSequence.txt.

My preference for intermixed turns is based more on the Man O' War feel (love that game!), so a slight modification of the card-based intermixed turns would be:

I've seen that card-based take on intermixed turns that you linked to. It was discussed on this forum in the thread here: https://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/rules-and-gameplay-f1/alternate-turn-system-for-mordheim-t442.htm. This is what my gaming group has tried but ensuring that models do not get extra hits than normal requires a lot of micro-management. I'll have to think about your ideas based on Man O' War as they might reduce micro-management. I also have an idea for how to change the rules in the card-based system slightly to reduce the micro-management but currently I am curious about other rules for shaking up the turn sequence that might not have any micro-management and this dice-based approach looks interesting. The comments on CC in regards to this dice-based approach have confused me though (see my post above).
Back to top Go down
http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
BossFacePunch
Warrior
Warrior
BossFacePunch


Posts : 24
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-03-03

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Orcs & Goblins Orcs & Goblins
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 24 Sep 2009 - 4:17

RationalLemming wrote:
Now how is CC for P1 here different from CC
for P1 in normal multiplayer? The only way that I can see that this
might be different from normal multiplayer is if Initiative is removed
from the equation. If this is so then P1 models all attack in CC for P1
and then P2 models all attack in the CC for P2 and then finally P3
models (if any still alive) attack in the CC for P3. Is this how it is
done? Yet Ezekial mentioned that Initiative was still used. Therefore I
cannot see how CC would work differently from how it does in normal
multiplayer (as in my two examples given above). Perhaps I
misunderstand the normal multiplayer rules???

Thanks. Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_pirat

With a system like this you have one close combat phase where each
model fights once instead of a separate close combat phase for each player where every model involved in a combat with one of the active player's models gets to fight.

You resolve close combat like this:
1. Who ever rolled highest at the start of the round picks an unresolved combat.
2. Each model involved in that particular combat fights in normal initiative order.
3. Once every model in that particular combat has fought check to see if there are still any combats that need to be resolved.
4. Repeat steps 1 - 3 until all combats have been resolved.
5. Start the next turns recovery phase.
Back to top Go down
Ezekiel
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient
Ezekiel


Posts : 909
Trading Reputation : 5
Join date : 2008-02-05
Age : 40
Location : Amsterdam

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Merchants (BTB) Merchants (BTB)
Achievements earned: None

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 24 Sep 2009 - 9:26

This is indeed exactly the way it works Smile
- small note: The unresolved combat to be picked, can only be combats in which the player is taking part (naturally)
Back to top Go down
http://www.mysthconcepts.nl
RationalLemming
Etheral
Etheral
RationalLemming


Posts : 1483
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2008-11-05
Age : 40
Location : Toowoomba, Qld, Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Ostlanders Ostlanders
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 24 Sep 2009 - 11:30

Ezekiel wrote:
This is indeed exactly the way it works Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_smile
- small note: The unresolved combat to be picked, can only be combats in which the player is taking part (naturally)

Thank you BossFacePunch and Ezekiel. I guess I can see how it works.

How does it work though if a model for P2 is in CC with a model for P1 and a model for P3 and P1 goes first in CC? The model for P1 is not in CC with the model for P3 but the three models are still inter-twined. I guess even if the model for P2 fights in a round of CC against the model for P1 and then a second time against the model for P3 it is still one round of CC less than in normal multiplayer rules. Hmmm...

Thanks again for clearing this up. Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 544694 Unfortunately there is still some micromanagement in the CC phase to keep track of all unresolved CC. However, I'll talk to my gaming group about the idea to see if they are interested.
Back to top Go down
http://sites.google.com/site/ourhouserules/mordheim
someone2040
Warrior
Warrior
someone2040


Posts : 22
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2009-09-13
Age : 37
Location : South Australia

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Possessed Possessed
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 25 Sep 2009 - 4:17

Myntokk wrote:
Yeah, Games Workshop's Lord of the Rings battle game uses a very similar system of rules, where the turn is broken down into the movement phase, shooting phase, and combat phase, and each phase is split between the players. At the start of every turn players roll to see who has priority for the round, and in the case of a tie priority goes to whoever did not have it last turn.
Lord of the Rings is definately what I first thought of when reading this thread.
However, I think Lord of the Rings works nicer due to their Might points I think it is. Where they can call out of priority/turn actions. So if you don't have priority that turn, but really need to get a charge off with your one guy, you can use your might to do that.
So while Priority definately matters, it also means you don't get completely screwed over if you roll badly on the dice (i.e Melee warbands would like to move first, but don't care about ranged. While shooting warbands probably like to move second so they can get into good shooting positions).

Simultaneous turns would certainly make the game play out a bit differently. Could definately add some interesting skills. Like Leader only skill something like "Seize the Initiative" where once per battle, he can add +2 to his priority roll or auto-win it or something.
Back to top Go down
Pervavita
Venerable Ancient
Venerable Ancient
Pervavita


Posts : 728
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-09-12
Age : 43
Location : Seattle WA (USA)

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Amazons (Unofficial) Amazons (Unofficial)
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 26 Mar 2013 - 19:32

Ok been going threw some old threads and found this and think it's an interesting idea.

Now I'm going to agree that it's still a problem in this situation:
RationalLemming wrote wrote:

How does it work though if a model for P2 is in CC with a model for P1 and a model for P3 and P1 goes first in CC? The model for P1 is not in CC with the model for P3 but the three models are still inter-twined. I guess even if the model for P2 fights in a round of CC against the model for P1 and then a second time against the model for P3 it is still one round of CC less than in normal multiplayer rules.

Why not if all rounds are meant to go at the same time have all CC happen in initiative order?

Thus each turn would be:
Roll for Priority
Recovory
Move in Priority order (including charges)
Shoot in Priority order
CC in Initiative order (charges get priority like normal)
Start next turn

Why wouldn't that be a better way to handle this?

Back to top Go down
Zero2Hero-DK
General
General
Zero2Hero-DK


Posts : 151
Trading Reputation : 0
Join date : 2011-05-03
Age : 41
Location : Denmark, Aalborg

Personal Info
Primary Warband played: Restless Dead (BTB) Restless Dead (BTB)
Achievements earned: none

Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 30 Mar 2013 - 18:13

Pervavita wrote:
Ok been going threw some old threads and found this and think it's an interesting idea.

Now I'm going to agree that it's still a problem in this situation:
RationalLemming wrote wrote:

How does it work though if a model for P2 is in CC with a model for P1 and a model for P3 and P1 goes first in CC? The model for P1 is not in CC with the model for P3 but the three models are still inter-twined. I guess even if the model for P2 fights in a round of CC against the model for P1 and then a second time against the model for P3 it is still one round of CC less than in normal multiplayer rules.

Why not if all rounds are meant to go at the same time have all CC happen in initiative order?

Thus each turn would be:
Roll for Priority
Recovory
Move in Priority order (including charges)
Shoot in Priority order
CC in Initiative order (charges get priority like normal)
Start next turn

Why wouldn't that be a better way to handle this?


What an interesting thread! I too have problems some times with rounds taking ages to complete so this is just what I was looking for.

In Regards to Pervavita suggestion I must say it gives a lot of sense. Especially the proposition of resolving combat in initiative order. I would propose that the turn priority would be influenced by initiative, in this way the initiative stat increase would be more desirable :-)
Back to top Go down
http://Zero2Hero.tabletopgeeks.com
Sponsored content





Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Simultaneous rounds   Simultaneous rounds - Page 2 Icon_minitime

Back to top Go down
 
Simultaneous rounds
Back to top 
Page 2 of 2Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Tom's Boring Mordheim Forum :: General Discussion :: Rules and Gameplay-
Jump to: