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Hawkeye
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PostSubject: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 7:33

I wasn't certain where this should go, as it's part modelling question, part rules question, but if it belongs somewhere else, then would one of the Mods be able to move it? Thank you!

Ok, so here's the question. So, I realise that base size is not as much of an issue in Mordheim as in Warhammer, but it's clearly something of an issue, as certain models come with certain base sizes. Well, within the next week or two I'll be putting together a Norse or Marauders warband, and here's my question: what base size should I be using? 20mm or 25mm, or does it matter?

Any help on this would be appreciated - and then I can start gluing things together!
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 7:53

Marauders and Chaos Warriors are put on 25mm bases. They are considerably larger than normal humans (who are put on 20mm bases). In general there's nothing wrong with using bigger bases than the normal ones but using smaller ones (so 20mm for an orc) could be considered cheating.

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 7:54

The Chaos Marauders go on 25mm bases, SO... the Norse Marauders, being the same folk by a different name, should also go on 25mm bases. Suspect
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 8:19

Excellent! Thanks for your prompt replies, gentlemen. I appreciate it. It's also what I suspected, but there's no harm in making sure! That means that I have to rebase my Marauder leader, though, as he's on a 20mm base as I had thought about using him in a Vampire Counts army. Rats!
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 9:15

Hawkeye wrote:
I had thought about using him in a Vampire Counts army.

W-OW! scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 9:49

cianty wrote:
In general there's nothing wrong with using bigger bases than the normal ones but using smaller ones (so 20mm for an orc) could be considered cheating.

There are pros and cons of both small bases and large bases. A small base doesn't fit as many enemies in close combat and it is thus harder to swarm a target on a small base. However, a larger base can be put in the middle of a passage between two buildings and block the way completely, where a smaller base would allow the enemies to pass the warrior [getting to an objective or to charge a more vulnerable warrior further behind].
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 10:01

Well, my idea, Cianty, was for an army gathered around a powerful wight lord (using rules for Vampires), a long-dead Northman who, in undeath, has gathered his followers and retainers around him as wights, skeletons, and so on. I was going to use the Hounds of Orion as dire wolves, for example, as if his hunting hounds had risen to ghostly life to run with him in the hunt once more. In fact, I had thought about using him for an Undead Mordheim warband, using the same sort of background. I suppose I could still use the 25mm base for a 'Vampire' in an Undead warband, though, so I'll go with that.

And Drud - you're absolutely right, of course. The larger base can be both a good thing and a bad thing on our board, which uses a lot of terrain packed close together to make lots of alleyways. Most of them are wide enough to allow a model on a 25mm base to fit through (and therefore block!), but sometimes they're just a little too narrow, and the model has to take the long way round! It usually makes for an interesting game. We haven't had anybody with an Ogre Bodyguard hired sword yet, but he'd have problems! He'd have to stick to the main thoroughfares!
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 10:20

I use my Marauders on 20mm bases in Mordheim, a human is a human after all. Some - like the Chaos Warriors or the Brutes from the Carnival of Chaos - are too big to fit on 20mm bases, and their stats and fluff both suggest that they are bigger than normal humans, so thatīs fine with me (and more importantly my gaming group). The smaller base size is only an issue if you want to use them for Warhammer Fantasy. For Mordheim we found it to be fairer if all humans / skaven / elves etc. use the same base size as it avoids a lot of arguments, especially in the narrow spaces common in a city.
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 11:44

Drud: That's a good point indeed. I didn't want to open a dicussion about what should be done and instead quickly answer the question. In the end, I think you should use the bases that are common and that the miniatures are supplied with because, as we have seen, there are unfair advantages when choosing different sizes - be it bigger or smaller.

Hawkeye: That sounds good. It's always very cool to see armies/warbands that have a certain unique theme/style/background instead of just being copies of the GW samples.

Horatius: I didn't even notice that you were using 20mm bases.

Personally I really cannot approve of using "human" bases for marauders. It is uncommon, can be considered unfair (see above) and it is very unfluffy. Unfluffy? Yes, because the sizes of humans and marauders are very different. Have a look at this illustration: Norse vs Bretonnian


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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 12:43

In fact, he'd need to be on a 40mm base - he looks as big as an ogre!

But, yes, in general I agree with what you're saying. In fact, when I started to gather models for a (still unfinished) possessed warband, I made sure what size base the Possessed comes supplied with (25mm, unless I managed to get it wrong...), and then I based my possessed (a converted Strigoi Vampire model) on a 25mm base.

Part of it, in my mind, also has to do with the simple fact that Possessed (for example) are just so much better than the average human-sized model (read: 20mm base) that you NEED to be able to gang up on him to do anything! The bigger the base, the bigger the gang that can try to take him down!

And as for the Norse Undead idea - thanks, Cianty! When people see things the same way, as regards theming warbands or armies, it helps to motivate me - and I need a LOT of motivation, sometimes! Work's been busy the last year, so it's tough to make the time for painting and modelling. But maybe I'll sneak in an hour or two here and there and do some work on the Norse Undead!
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 12:51

Hawkeye wrote:
But maybe I'll sneak in an hour or two here and there and do some work on the Norse Undead!

I certainly hope so. Good luck with that! Don't let the work stress you too much. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 12:55

Thanks, Cianty. Lots of ideas bouncing around in my head at the moment, so it would be a good time to start!
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 16:20

I just want to throw in a quick comment or two.

Anybody remember the metal marauders? They came on 20mm square bases. As did the mercenary Bearmen of Urslo. This caused all sorts of issues a couple of years back in Fantasy when the list of official base sizes were released.

Marauders were listed as 25mm, while mercenary Norse were listed as 20mm. Meant Chaos players had to rebase their old models, or start using them as mercs. Far too much hassle if you ask me.

This is one of the reasons some of us switched to 25mm round bases for Mordheim. Square bases are only necessary for models that rank up. Skirmish games work fine on round bases. WE haven't had an issue with it, even if different players in the same group use different bases.

The base itself is just there to keep the model standing upright and operate as an arbitrary point to measure from.

The only potential issue in Mordheim that we could see is the number of models you could get into contact with one opponent if base sizes differ. Get everybody on the same size and it goes away.
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Tue 18 Nov 2008 - 17:02

All good points, Catferret, and for some of the warbands I plan on building, I might use round bases since I will never plan on using them in a game of Warhammer. Some of them, however, like Empire and Undead (and Bretonnian, when I get round to building a Bret warband), WILL be used in games of Warhammer, so I have to keep that in mind when basing them.

For me, more than anything else what I prefer about round bases is that I think models simply look better on them, and there's more room for doing something scenic.
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 3:29

cianty wrote:
Drud: That's a good point indeed. I didn't want to open a dicussion about what should be done and instead quickly answer the question. In the end, I think you should use the bases that are common and that the miniatures are supplied with because, as we have seen, there are unfair advantages when choosing different sizes - be it bigger or smaller.

Yeah. What I meant really was that it could be considered cheating behavior both taking a smaller base and a larger base to your model. The wisest thing would be to just use what the model was supplied with [or rather what the model you intend to use your miniature as would have been supplied with].

For aesthetic reasons most of the warbands in my gaming group (it might be all, I'm not sure), as well as catferret's are based on round 25mm bases - be the Orcs, humans or Dwarves. Large Targets (models with the Large Target rule) are all placed on 40mm round bases.
The biggest change this has brought is that large humanoids (particularly Orcs - we don't have any marauders in the league) and small humanoids (Dwarves, Goblins, Halflings) now have the same sized bases. It's not really a problem since the terrain is often the most limiting factor to how many attackers can charge a target, and not the base size of the model.

The model that really shouldn't be put on a small base, but isn't a large target would be the Possessed (and the wulfen too - there are probably more). However I'm lucky enough to have ordered some Privateer Press Croe's Cutthroats as my Witch Hunters and their round bases are slightly larger (probably around 30 mm) and will work perfectly for my Possessed! Yay! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 6:01

Drud wrote:
Yeah. What I meant really was that it could be considered cheating behavior both taking a smaller base and a larger base to your model. The wisest thing would be to just use what the model was supplied with [or rather what the model you intend to use your miniature as would have been supplied with].

I totally agree.

I also agree that for individual miniatures (ie, in skirmish systems) round bases look at a lot better than square ones. However, I am used to using square bases for Mordheim so I like using them. In the end, the players should like their own minis, that's what counts. I don't know if GW allows round bases in their official tournaments. Would be interesting to know...

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 7:12

Good question, Cianty, I hadn't thought of that.

I have quite a few Wild West minis as well, for GW's Legends of the Old West, all of which are on 25mm round bases, and it's true they look better. As for Mordheim, part of the problem is the issue of compatability with Warhammer, and part of the issue is consistency. I think this is your point, Cianty - that once you have a collection of models with one kind of base on them, other kinds used along with them can look odd.

Food for thought here. I also thought of another issue. I really want to do this Norse Undead warband - Norse are usually on 25mm bases, while Undead are normally on 20mm bases. A dilemma. I think I'd probably just go for 20mm bases, but something about doing that seems slightly off to me. I'll have to think about it...
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 7:29

Hawkeye wrote:
Good question, Cianty, I hadn't thought of that.

I have quite a few Wild West minis as well, for GW's Legends of the Old West, all of which are on 25mm round bases, and it's true they look better.

Same here with Legends of the High Seas pirate models...

Hawkeye wrote:
As for Mordheim, part of the problem is the issue of compatability with Warhammer, and part of the issue is consistency. I think this is your point, Cianty - that once you have a collection of models with one kind of base on them, other kinds used along with them can look odd.

Actually I have been thinking about this while I was in the tram a few hourse ago (yeah, I'm a nerd, f**k you!). I was wondering if GW put their Mordheim miniatures on square bases to make them look consistent with Warhammer Fantasy models or because they wanted to subtly imply to players that they can easily use their WHF models for Mordheim too, thus encouraging them to play the game. Since all Mordheim miniatures were produced exclusively for that game they could have put those on round bases instead of squares. I mean, it's not like they were actively supporting a mix of WH and MH models. My guess is that they wanted the two games to be compatible.

Hawkeye wrote:
Food for thought here. I also thought of another issue. I really want to do this Norse Undead warband - Norse are usually on 25mm bases, while Undead are normally on 20mm bases. A dilemma. I think I'd probably just go for 20mm bases, but something about doing that seems slightly off to me. I'll have to think about it...

A very good point. I remember them producing a special blister with race zombies. There are a dwarf zombie, an elf zombie and an orc zombie (and more probably). I'm sure they were all on 20mm bases as otherwise you couldn't have used the 25mm orc zombie in a regiment of 20mm. Now, from a fluff/background perspective, the question is if an Orc skeleton would have lost so much meat that it is suitable for a 20mm base instead of the 25mm bases that Orcs are on normally. I'm sure they're not because the skeleton defines the overall figure so even an Orc skeleton that has lost a considerable amount of weight would still require the space of a 25mm base. So it looks like GW was inconsistent with their own bases there. An Orc zombie should clearly be put on the same base as a living Orc. Especiall in a skirmish game like Mordheim I'd definately put a Zombie/Skeleton Orc or Marauder on a 25mm base. Simply because it's way cooler. It seems that normal skeletons/zombies are meant to be from dead humans. So even if you can't use a zombie marauder in your Warhammer zombie regiment, you can still use him in your marauders of chaos regiment! Undead

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 10:52

Braaaains....

All good points, and I have to say, it was the way I was leaning anyway. Put the zombie models in the Undead warband on whatever base they would occupy if they weren't zombies. In fact, I have the orc skeleton that you're talking about (The Cursed Company was the name of the unit, I think), and you're right. Weirdly, it's on a 20mm base.

As for GW's decision about what base types to put Morhdeim models on - I think you're probably right. An suggestion to the player that models could be used between the two systems.

But now, it's time for BRAAAAINNNNNS! Undead
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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 11:13

Hawkeye wrote:
In fact, I have the orc skeleton that you're talking about (The Cursed Company was the name of the unit, I think), and you're right. Weirdly, it's on a 20mm base.

Oh, yes, indeed!

Now... enjoy your meal! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Norse/Marauders   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 12:18

BRRRAAAAIINNNS.....

Burp!
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