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Tannhauser
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PostSubject: Pistols   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 8:31

hello everyone,

So here i am after 7-8 years, taking out my Mordheim warbands and planing to start a little campaign with 2 friends.

I have been downloading and reading alot as most is new now to me, i only ever played with the rulebook form 99(?)

Now before me and my friends start agreeing on some houserules and completely unbalancing the game, i'd like to understand some things better.

My main concern is with pistols, as i'm painting my future Marienburg warband, where most my heroes are equiped with a pistol or brace of pistols. (For me would mean 75 gold)

Pistols are not cheap, and there main advantage seems to be the -1 sav. th. and 4 str in first turn of cc.

As i can't find a rule stating otherwise i guess pistols get -1 from long distance (above 3") and -1 from moving.
So i guess i'll be firing my pistols with a -2 to hit everytime while actually having been able to charge or being now in charging distance for my opponents. So my youngblood and champions will be hitting on 6+?!

Are they only meant to be a cc weapon for characters till they reach 4 str?

It's an issue as i'm a big fan of what you see is what you get (as much as possible and with exeptions ofc)
And i think i'd rather equip them with a second handweapon and use the 30 gold on another henchmen...

Am i missing something that makes pistols usefull? How do you use em?

I know i can get skills from the shooting table, but thats' far into the game and i could get alot of other usefull skills instead.
Am i forced to spend points in shooting list to actually make pistols a shooting weapon?

(same actually applies for arquebuse, i mean why spend 10 gold more than on a crossbow to have crapier range, and fire only once every 2 turns for a -1 sv.tr where noone is using an armor anyway until very late into the game?)

thanks for your tipps.
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Da Bank
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 13:52

They are -1 for long distance same shooting rules apply to all missle/black powder weapons.

We have never inforced the -1 for pistols so it is more of a house rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 14:20

Now I understand why a friend of mine said that pistols are not worth it: you need to go for DUELING pistols to hit stuff....

Xavi
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Tannhauser
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 14:26

Alright, i see Marienburg is your main warband.
Any sugestions regarding henchmen and hired swords?

Elmoth, yes i agree that dueling pistols are alot better but they cost double, so thats 30 gold or 60gold for a brace, hardly cost efficient i'd say.
It might be ok when just your captain gets one, but most of my heroes have pistols.

once i have keen eye skill +6" and maybe also pistolier to be able to shoot em both in same turn instead of just one per turn, usual pistols become really good, but well i'm 2 skills in then.

I don't know how others are using em. To me seems cc is only viable option for normal pistols.

having 2 str 4 attack in first turn of cc is of course nice but when i compare to middenheim, champions and captain already have str 4 and can use 2 hammrs of axes for the exact same effect, only every turn not just first one and for only 6 or 10 gold instead of 30.
And unlike pistols they will still benefit from it when getting more attacks or other skills.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 22:18

Another thing is that:
1. you can only use 1 pistol at a time without the skill Pistolier, so till then, the only benefit of having TWO pistols on a hero is to fire every single turn. With them only 6-10 inches away, you'll probably only get one shot off before they charge you, or another member of your warband. So that cuts it from 30gc each to 15gc each.

2. The +1 to hit from Duelling Pistols is amazing. A model 5" away, for a youngblood, would be a 6 to hit. For a DP, it's a 4. Not bad, eh?

3. Duelling Pistols normally cost 30gc at the trading post, but Merc warbands can start off with them for only 25gc each. Your best bet is to buy 1 Duelling instead of a brace of the normal. If one hero gets a great BS, give him one of the guns from another warrior, one who hasn't been using it.
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PostSubject: Dangerous!   Sat 15 Nov 2008 - 10:49

Hello,
My friends and I have implemented a very nice and simple house rules concerning all powder weapons:
Dangerous : +1 on all injury rolls.

It makes powder weapon very-efficient for trained character.

And we added that there's no long range penalty with pistols, but eagle eye only adds +3" instead of +6" with them.
Edit: we also apply this on Thrown weapons btw.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sat 15 Nov 2008 - 14:52

+1 to injury is a nice an not overally complicated or unfair rule. I like it.
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cianty
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sat 15 Nov 2008 - 16:03

Da Bank wrote:
+1 to injury is a nice an not overally complicated or unfair rule. I like it.

Yeah, me too. And it seems plausible to boot.

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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sun 16 Nov 2008 - 14:17

Giving Pistols (or black powder weapons in general) the concussion special rule that clubs have could also be done. It's a slightly smaller bonus, and I think a 50/50 chance (granted that it hits and wounds) to take someone out is a bit much on a ranged shot - it should be reserved for close combat, heroes and take a skill (strike to injure).
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sun 16 Nov 2008 - 14:24

I agree with Da Bank and Cianty. A +1 on the injury roll for Blackpowder weapons is a simple rule, it's not game-breaking, and it would encourage the use of Blackpowder weapons. In our games very few people take them, simply because a Crossbow is a better option. Duelling pistols are popular later in a campaign when people have the gold crowns, but that's about it. This might change things, though!

Oh, on a related point, Cianty, I see that in the latest installment of BTB (nice work again, by the way), you suggest +1 to Armour Save for using a shield and a one-handed weapon. That's exactly what our group does, in part to try to get people out of the 'two hand-weapons are better' mindset. We also impose a -1 to hit penalty on attacks with the weapon in the off-hand for those models that DO use two hand weapons. For the most part, the combination of these two rules has seen a lot more variety in weapon and armour use, which can only be a good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sun 16 Nov 2008 - 15:00

Hawkeye wrote:
Oh, on a related point, Cianty, I see that in the latest installment of BTB (nice work again, by the way), you suggest +1 to Armour Save for using a shield and a one-handed weapon. That's exactly what our group does, in part to try to get people out of the 'two hand-weapons are better' mindset. We also impose a -1 to hit penalty on attacks with the weapon in the off-hand for those models that DO use two hand weapons. For the most part, the combination of these two rules has seen a lot more variety in weapon and armour use, which can only be a good thing.

In our group the additional +1 AS has been enough to make two weapons, weapon + shield and two-handed weapons all viable. I'm not a fan of big rule twists so I wouldn't like the additional -1 to hit modifier as I think that would be too much. If it does work for your group, then that's cool, of course. But don't you think that the +1 AS for shield would suffice? Sorry for being completely off topic!

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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sun 16 Nov 2008 - 15:18

Hey, Cianti!

No, we've noticed that the +1AS alone is not really enough to persuade people. In HtH combat most models (at least after a couple of games) have enough increases or skills (or axes!) to modify the AS enough to make a player need to roll a six to save. A Str 4 champion or a hero with Mighty Blow brings it down to a six, and after a few games there are quite a few of heroes around! Add an axe to that (if a model has an axe and a sword, for example), and your 5+ save is gone. For this reason most players don't feel that's good enough to warrant the investment in armour over an extra attack. I've tried various solutions over the years, but the +1AS and -1 to hit with the off-hand weapon is the only one that's come close to adding some variety.

Back on topic (sort of!) is the fact that pistols can give that -1AS in the first round of combat as well. In fact, what we've noticed is that it's the lack of AS against Str 4 shooting that tips the balance when it comes to deciding between hand weapon and shield or two hand weapons. Also, those weapons that can only be used with a shield or a buckler (like spears and morning stars) just aren't good enough, or have been nerfed just enough (spears, for example), to encourage people to take them, even with the increased save they get by using them with a shield.

It's a tough nut to crack, I have to admit! The other issue for me is that almost all Morhdeim champion models are sculpted with armour of some sort, but armour often isn't worth taking (at least early in a campaign). So you have these hugely armoured models who, in the game, wear no armour and carry two hand weapons!
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Sun 16 Nov 2008 - 15:21

Hawkeye wrote:
Hey, Cianti!

No, we've noticed that the +1AS alone is not really enough to persuade people. In HtH combat most models (at least after a couple of games) have enough increases or skills (or axes!) to modify the AS enough to make a player need to roll a six to save. A Str 4 champion or a hero with Mighty Blow brings it down to a six, and after a few games there are quite a few of heroes around! Add an axe to that (if a model has an axe and a sword, for example), and your 5+ save is gone. For this reason most players don't feel that's good enough to warrant the investment in armour over an extra attack. I've tried various solutions over the years, but the +1AS and -1 to hit with the off-hand weapon is the only one that's come close to adding some variety.

Thanks for your impressions, Hawkeye!

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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Mon 17 Nov 2008 - 4:10

My gaming group has made the exact same changes as Hawkeye's, and because of the same reasons. +1AS for shield in closecombat wasn't enough. And we felt that giving -1 to hit with all attacks when dual wielding was too severe a punishment. So we settled for a -1 to hit modifier on the offhand attacks. So now the off-hand options are more or less equal (or atleast are all valuable on different models): +1/2 AS, a weak (-1 to hit) attack with a side arm, or extra strength to the main attacks. All options are being used now - though dual wielding is still the most often seen equipment, at least in the first couple of games, due to it's lower cost (you only need to buy 1 weapon).
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Mon 17 Nov 2008 - 6:55

That's interesting, Drud. Like you, we considered the -1 to hit with both weapons, but felt it was too severe. Also like you, we still find that dual-wielding is still the most common weapon load-out in the game. Still, anything to make those other weapons and combos more viable is a good thing, in my mind.

Oh, which is why I love the +1 to the injury roll with Blackpowder weapons. I'll be suggesting it to the group this week!
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PostSubject: slings suck   Wed 19 Nov 2008 - 17:58

We got a little far from the pistol conversation Razz

Reply to Drud
Our group thought that when you were unlucky with your ranged weapons' injury rolls (always rolling Knocked down), your expensive equipment isn't worth its gold value at all, so we implemented a shooting skill that gives +1 injury roll on shooting, which I admit is pretty strong, but doesn't help at all on accuracy, so isn't that bad either...

By the way, we reduced slings range to 12" thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Thu 20 Nov 2008 - 5:35

After some test games with pistols i found that shooting a pistols is 99% of the time the bad choice.

Usually you have to roll a 5 or 6 to hit while then being in charge range and not able to use the pistol in close combat.

let's me conclude that pistols are actually cc weapons and not ranged unless you take dueling pistols and maybe have the hawk eye skill.


then with cc going on for 2 or 3 turns, the pistol cannot reload i guess till the combat is over and a new round has been spend on reloading the weapon.

For me it's only an issue as most of my Marienburgers are equiped with a brace and i would find alot of better ways to spend all that gold Smile

the +1 on injurie for blackpowder sounds nice, but makes en leathel also in cc.
But doesn't solve the shooting issue.

we think of agreeing on putting ranges of below 10" always close range regardless of weapon.
and maybe increasing the range of normal pistols to 8".

What do people think of this? Anyone tried this, might that imbalnce the game too much?
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PostSubject: Re: Pistols   Mon 24 Nov 2008 - 23:39

Simply removing pistols' penalty for long range seems logical and nice to me. (not as reliable as throwing weapon cause still have the move and shoot penalty, but way better)

Eagle Eye gets a bit too strong with duelling pistols though, that's why we made Eagle Eye skill +3 inch instead of +6 for Pistols and throwing weapons.
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