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Harrocks
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PostSubject: 30mm round bases   Wed 31 Oct 2018 - 9:55

wondering about basing these days for the game.

not played yet - so have no practical experience.

from an aesthetic point of view, I'm wanting to go with the hordesmachines 30mm lipped bases. I know it's a marmite thing, but I really like them (I've tried acrylic bases for a game called ghost archipelago - and it works well enough as an approach, but somehow I miss the landscaped base 'look' ...).

but ... I've come across one blog post where the blogger, an experienced player, asserts very strongly that the original 25mm square bases are fundamental to how the melee works, and helping keeping things 'balanced' between 'bands.

https://silo41.co.uk/2018/04/16/mordheim-building-a-warband-in-a-round-base-world/

appreciate any opinions on the matter.
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Wed 31 Oct 2018 - 15:02

Okay, I couldn't even read through all of this behind the link. It gave me pains. Maybe it's not a good idea to answer without reading through it all and because of the wine I've had but I already oppose strongly to what this hobbyist has to say.

The first time I thought about not reading further was when he wrote this:
Quote :
Mordheim is an incredibly well balanced game. The starting warbands, for all their differences are more or less evenly matched – this is very hard to achieve.
This is the first time I've read someone state this opinion and it's contrary to all I've experienced. But hell, what do I know.

I stopped reading after I read this:
Quote :
Models mounted on larger square bases shift the balance by limiting the number of models that can charge them and, equally give them a wider frontage to charge multiple models should they so choose.
Did he really think this through? Every model you can attack, can attack you back. So if fewer models can charge you, you can charge back less. And if you can more easily charge multiple models, multiple models can more easily charge you back...
My opinion: Mordheim models are on square bases because all GW-Fantasy models (aside from fanatics) at that time were on square bases. It was not a conscious decision by the game designers for square and agains round bases. If suddenly all models were on round bases, it would probably work out just as well. If different warbands meet, one with each type of base, I'd count on something like common sense, aka either something like "with my bigger bases I can charge more of your guys but will also take more of a beating" or "okay, so if I had put this mini on the base intended, I couldn't charge your mini, so I wount"...
I've always stuck to this word of wisdom: go with what you like the look of. If it's round lipped bases you like the look of, go for it!
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Wed 31 Oct 2018 - 16:54

I must admit I didn't read the whole thing either.

I prefer square bases because that's what most of my models are on.

We allow round bases in campaigns as long as the player doesn't bitch because his model doesn't fit on terrain or because so many of square based models can attack his miniatures compared to the number he can bring to bear. If a player has a problem with either of these things, then it is likely that he will not be part of the group long.

We use terrain as more than just a back ground to the game. And the terrain is designed with certain base sizes in mind. There are places ogres can't go on our boards. This is intentional as that's one of the ways you escape a large creature (even in real life).

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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Thu 1 Nov 2018 - 3:43

Grimscull and Von Kurst - thanks for your replies.

I can see the 'swings and roundabouts' likelihood Grimskull - and particularly not having played before, I guess what you don't know you won't miss etc.

but ... having just looked at your Pyrates thread, Von Kurst, there's clear visual evidence there that small square bases can allow for more figures in tight spaces, and better positioning generally ... so even if melee isn't dependent on them for 'balance', I can certainly see the practicality of  them - with some terrain set-ups at least.

I guess while round / square doesn't perhaps matter much, the size of the bases for your average figure probably does and using 30mm* might well be restricting gameplay unnecessarily.

I'll have to decide what my priority is I guess - gazing adoringly upon my painted figures in the cabinet, or optimising bases for gameplay. And I'm not joking there - I wont get to play very often at all, so prioritising the former aspect isn't so silly for me as it may sound ...

hmmmm ... scratch

(* just to clarify, it's difficult to get the round-lipped bases in a smaller size than 30mm - one supplier offers 'proper' lipped 25mm bases here in the UK as far as I can see (Fenris Games). But they're relatively expensive, so if I could get away with 30mm that might be best.


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Last edited by Harrocks on Sun 4 Nov 2018 - 7:57; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Sat 3 Nov 2018 - 6:41

anyone else got any views on playing, specifically with 30mm round bases - I'd love to be assurred it's ok!
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Sun 4 Nov 2018 - 3:40

Personally I'd recommend printing out a copy of that blog post so you have something physical to tear up & throw away. It's largely nonsense, especially that business about larger bases being harder to charge & easier to charge with... It's the same area no matter which way it's moving, you maniac... Also, near the end he claims wargaming hurts his knees, so I think he might be doing it wrong.

As for practical advice:

1) A 30mm round base covers about the same area as a 25mm square (because round bases are measured across the widest part while square bases are measured across the shortest edge, which is why 20mm square was the standard for WHFB while 25mm round was standard for 40K), & 25mm square is used for most beastmen, orcs, &c. Actually, the usable area of a 30mm lipped base will be about the same as on a 25mm unlipped, but the lip adds area.
20mm square is often easiest to fit on scenery or in tight spaces (because it's small), but you can just adjust your scenery to compensate. &, if that were the only consideration, we'd all still be using those weird mini-oval bases GW made for Gorkamorka. We are not.

2) I've based nine warbands on square bases, but I've mostly played against warbands on round bases -- with some models on 30mm bases. & honestly, it's been fine. I've never felt my opponent was cheating by having a rounder base than me.

3) I've started basing on round bases myself. Using square bases often means trying to line up the model's face with the 'front' of the base, which was fine with WHFB/Mordheim models designed to go on square bases, but isn't always easy with modern models. & if you don't need to rank up the models for regiments, you don't need square bases. & if you like the look of 30mm lipped bases, go for it.

So yeah, 30mm bases are fine. & I think Grimscull's right about why Mordheim was originally played with square bases. They playtested the game using WHFB models, then made new models compatible with WHFB standard. Boom. Nothing to do with balance.
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Harrocks
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Sun 4 Nov 2018 - 3:52

That's great, Rhydderch - what I wanted to read / hear really - so thank you very much for taking the time to post.

Think I'll go with the 30mm lipped then, and see how it goes.

although I see I've been making the mistake of thinking the original square basese were 25mm rather than 20mm!

one benefit of using 30mm lipped, is that, once you've got rid of the slot molding, a 2p fits nicely in the base for added weight.

(btw, I have printed out that blog-post, so might follow your advice Smile )
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Sun 4 Nov 2018 - 4:39

Because 25mm round are the almost universal standard, and 20mm square are so similar in size, it's an easy mistake to make. 30mm will be distinctly chunkier than those, but not so as to form a problem.

Glad to be of help!
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PostSubject: Re: 30mm round bases   Tue 6 Nov 2018 - 3:01

don't know why I hadn't come across this previously, but here's a thread on these very boards discussing the topic in a rather more mathematical manner:

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t1834-what-bases-to-use-for-my-mordheim-figures
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