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 Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide

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2704ENG
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PostSubject: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Sun 31 Dec 2017 - 17:31

Kicking off a new Mordheim campaign in a few weeks time and here's my proposed built - a bit radical I know so comments and feedback will be appreciated.

Heroes

Mob Boss - 93pts
mace, dagger, bow

Big Un - 43pts
mace, dagger

Big Un - 43pts
mace, dagger

Shaman - 53pts
mace, dagger

HENCHMEN

6 x Orc Boys - 168pts
club, dagger

6 x Goblin Warriors - 90pts
dagger

Pit Fighter - 30pts

_____________

Total - 495pts


Please note we will be playing with the following house rules:

  • Dual Wield: -1 to Hit in off hand and can never crit. Heroes can take skill to offset this.

    Shield: +1 Attack at -1 Strength, opponent gets +1 armour save. Shield and HtH weapon combo grants +1 Armour Save in CC only.

    Armour: Negative modifier starts at Strength 5 instead of 4

    Pre-measure at all times and Randomised Charge: 2D6 and pick the highest result.


So I've gone with the horde approach with no equipment. The plus side is that I get to start with 17 models! So no rout test unless I lose 5 or more models which is pretty sweet. Also Goblins don't count towards this so potentially I can take a lot of hits. The downside is that it starts with a massive warband rating of 145 at the onset...

As for strategy well it's pretty simple... Goblins as meat shields back up by Boyz and then Heroes rushing straight for the enemy. Due to the sheer number of models I should definitely have the tactical advantage when it comes to certain scenarios like Break Through. I'm definitely prepared to loose few guys along the way but in the end sheer number should triumph!

What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Mon 1 Jan 2018 - 4:20

Hmm... Those are some major adjustments in the house rules. Curious...

As for the warband build, it makes sense as a horde warband. I'd recommend dividing the Orc Boys into three groups of two Boys; that'll increase the variety of advances during a campaign, make it easier to buy equipment (if you wanted to add some firepower, you would only need to buy two bows for one group, rather than six, for example), & increase the odds of advancing henchmen to heroes.

The goblins won't achieve much -- as meat shields, they're just as likely to act as experience dispensers for the enemy as actually protect yours Boys, especially with just five gobbos shielding ten Orcs. You might well be better off getting three Orcs instead of five Goblins... Or you might choose to swap them out later on.

The Pit Fighter seems like a strange choice for the starting line-up -- it doesn't balance any weakness in your warband, so it's an expensive way to add a close-combat specialist. However, it is cool, & I don't blame you for taking it. But with upkeep costs you might also end up dropping him.

It'll be a difficult warband to advance; with so many henchmen & so few heroes, you'll struggle to make money from exploration. But you'll also be very able to take a battering, so I think you'll likely do well, at least for a while.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Mon 1 Jan 2018 - 16:06

Rhydderch wrote:
Hmm... Those are some major adjustments in the house rules. Curious...

After two campaigns of using the "stock" rules we've decided to mix things up a bit to address some of the issues that came up.

One of the members in our group is relatively new to the scene and they had a torrid time estimating ranges. Also amongst the seasoned players we'd experience a constant Mexican standoff where models were just short of charge range and danced back and fourth without much happening until finally one player decides to shove. We're hoping that pre-measuring and randomised charge distances will go someways to alleviate this.

Regarding shield and dual wielding it was more about giving players a rational choice so that shields actually become viable as otherwise the +1 attack granted by the extra hand weapon is simply too good.

Rhydderch wrote:
It'll be a difficult warband to advance; with so many henchmen & so few heroes, you'll struggle to make money from exploration. But you'll also be very able to take a battering, so I think you'll likely do well, at least for a while.

Orcs and Goblins are only allowed to start with 4 heroes... but it is a good point about the goblins. I can essentially swap out two goblins for an orc Boyz - meaning that if I drop all the goblins I'll be able to start with 9 T4 Boyz! Not sure if that's a bit too cheesy and a little hard on my opponents facing down against 14 T4 models in their first battle lol... But having additional boyz would definitely help with the Lads got Talent rolls.

As for the Pit Fighter he's simply too good in terms of value - a better fighter than my actual mob boss at one third of the price!

Thanks for the feedback! Might go away and tweak some more...
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Wed 3 Jan 2018 - 9:31

2704ENG wrote:
One of the members in our group is relatively new to the scene and they had a torrid time estimating ranges. Also amongst the seasoned players we'd experience a constant Mexican standoff where models were just short of charge range and danced back and fourth without much happening until finally one player decides to shove. We're hoping that pre-measuring and randomised charge distances will go someways to alleviate this.

Regarding shield and dual wielding it was more about giving players a rational choice so that shields actually become viable as otherwise the +1 attack granted by the extra hand weapon is simply too good.

2704ENG wrote:
Pre-measure at all times and Randomised Charge: 2D6 and pick the highest result.

Am I right in understanding the randomised charge is max. 6"? Because I suspect that'll be super frustrating; models within 8" of an enemy can't run except to charge, & this'll put a lot of models outside of charge range but still with restricted movement. It's also shorter than the running movement of most warriors (a poor roll will be worse than walking...), which will also be annoying. Might something like a charge distance of Movement+D6" work? Unless I've understood this wrong, in which case feel free to ignore me.

I can understand the other changes more -- pre-measure at all times seems to be industry standard now, & eliminates a certain amount of arguments. Making Shield & Hand Weapon as appealing as Two Hand Weapons also makes sense. The detail of Shield only granting +1 Armour Save in CC throws me though -- shields stop arrows too!

2704ENG wrote:
Not sure if that's a bit too cheesy and a little hard on my opponents facing down against 14 T4 models in their first battle lol... But having additional boyz would definitely help with the Lads got Talent rolls.

Well that'd teach your opponents for bringing feeble little humies to an orc fight! They should just be glad you haven't brought a cave troll! Plus, the lack of missile weapons means they can shoot at you while trying to avoid contact; most orcs are only WS3, S3, so you're not going to be chopping through them too quickly; I2 & a lack of swords or spears means the enemy'll get to hit first in most combats, & you're subject to Animosity rules, so they can try relying on your boys to brain each other. You'll have your own challenges before you get to feel too beardy.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Sat 6 Jan 2018 - 11:02

Since you only start with 4 heroes, goblins are a non-starter as you need heroes.  Plus the goblins just cost you money without contributing much aside from more chances to kill your own models (some folks enjoy this though).  

I always start with the troll...

Quote :
The detail of Shield only granting +1 Armour Save in CC throws me though -- shields stop arrows too!
I could be wrong, but you (and perhaps he) are missing the shield and hand weapon combination grants an additional +1 in CC.  Meaning in CC a model armed with a shield and hand weapon has an armor save of 5+ as opposed the normal 6+.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Sun 7 Jan 2018 - 2:41

Rhydderch wrote:


Am I right in understanding the randomised charge is max. 6"? Because I suspect that'll be super frustrating; models within 8" of an enemy can't run except to charge, & this'll put a lot of models outside of charge range but still with restricted movement. It's also shorter than the running movement of most warriors (a poor roll will be worse than walking...), which will also be annoying. Might something like a charge distance of Movement+D6" work? Unless I've understood this wrong, in which case feel free to ignore me.

Apologies - here's the actual house rule that we'll be using for randomised movement:

     

  • For M < 3 - Charging player rolls 2D6 and picks the highest result and adds this to their M value for charge distance with a -1 modifier.

          For M4 to M7 - Charging player rolls 2D6 and picks the highest result and adds this to their M value for charge distance with no modifier.

          For M > 8 - Charging player rolls 3D6 and picks the two highest result and adds this to their M value for charge distance with no modifier


So yes you are correct - essentially a randomised charge distance with be the model's basic M value plus a randomised result based on the above.

Von Kurst wrote:


I could be wrong, but you (and perhaps he) are missing the shield and hand weapon combination grants an additional +1 in CC.  Meaning in CC a model armed with a shield and hand weapon has an armor save of 5+ as opposed the normal 6+.


Nope you are right as usual!

Agree that in terms of advancements it is better to start with pure orcs than goblins or squigs as with only 4 starting heroes I'll need to maximise my chances for Lad's got Talent. I did start with the Troll last time and whilst it was fun I ran into two main issues:

1) You end up with a fairly small warband size and only two orc henchmens.

2) Every game became the target the Mob Boss as once he's KOed / Stunned your Troll had very little chance of passing the stupidity test. It also meant that the Mob Boss was more or less tethered to the Troll.

But it looks like the consensus is to ditch the goblins and start with purely orcs - so 4 Orc Heroes, 9 Orc Boyz and a Pit Fighter!

Split the Boyz into 5 different Henchmen Groups and hope the Lad's got Talent!
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Sun 7 Jan 2018 - 4:26

Ahh, those all make far more sense. Makes shields far more appealing while leaving most armour still a luxury item, & doesn't break charging. Good adaptations by the sounds of it.

I think goblins have a place in a Greenskin warband -- goblins with shortbows are a cheap form of missile support, leaving the Boys to the Orcish business of walloping heads in HtH. But with your club-swarm, I wouldn't bother. Five henchman groups is a good move, though you'll need to figure out a way to keep track of which is which!

Hmm, those are issues I'd never considered with the troll. The only time (so far) I've had to use Stupidity rules was for a Dwarf Noble who got himself brained, but his high Ld means he rarely suffers from it. But with the troll's Ld, you really do need a minder for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Mon 8 Jan 2018 - 3:26

Rhydderch wrote:
Ahh, those all make far more sense. Makes shields far more appealing while leaving most armour still a luxury item, & doesn't break charging. Good adaptations by the sounds of it.

Thanks mate - yeah we felt the key was to provide players with meaningful choices. We're also thinking of adding a special skill Shield Bash - basically like Dual Wield it eliminates the penalties of -1S and +1AS for your shield attack. This way the opportunity is there for you to kit out a defensively focused hero without having to give up that all important +1A that you get with the additional hand weapon.

We are also considering allowing models armed with 2 Handed Weapons to strike first in the turn they charged in light of the changes made to shields and additional HtH weapons

I really do love the Troll - the fact that it can never die makes it hands down the best Big Guy if your play group don't allow Big Guys to roll on the Heroes Injury Chart. But with its abysmal Ld of 4 it essentially becomes an expensive paper weight should anything happen to your Mob Boss.

Even basic spells like Dread of Aramar becomes a problem as you can't test on the Boss' Ld if he's fleeing! The fact that the Boss can't get any Academic Skills that increase the range of his Ld means essentially you're tethered to a big dumb monster.

I've had some limited success going for a Shooty build with the Mob Boss if he had to babysit the Troll. Start him off with a Cross Bow / Bow and have him take pot shots to take advantage of his BS4. Still it's not very Orc-y and you're rather wasting his S4 and T4...
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Tue 9 Jan 2018 - 3:17

I can see the Shield Bash skill making a shield & morning-star combination especially appealing -- for a change. The Morning-star is one of the coolest weapons that no-one much uses because it isn't that good, & it's a bit of a shame. & a Middenheimer with that combo under your rules could make one S5 attack & one S3... A potent combination.

One house rule I've just started trying out is allowing a double-handed weapon the special rule of its single-handed version -- so a greatsword has a parry, a double-handed hammer concusses, & an especially large axe goes through armour like a tin-opener. The parry is especially attractive, as it makes the wielder a little more survivable.

This does explain to me why the troll is so madly overpowered in terms of wounds & its invulnerable 4+ save; because it might not ever actually get a chance to wallop people. Still though... troll...
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PostSubject: Re: Orc and Goblin Warband - The Green Tide   Mon 15 Jan 2018 - 19:46

In my group we noticed more people taking morning stars and flails when we gave them both the special rule 'cannot be parried'.

For context we made parry a bit more desirable by making Expert Swordsman parry on equal in addition to its usual stuff. Also, we made the Dual Wielding skill allow one to parry two attacks (one parry per weapon with parry). We also added the skill Expert Parry skill. This allows one to parry with any weapon or shield, or to reroll parries if the item already allows a parry. Sword and buckler granted two parries - not a parry and a reroll.

For what it is worth, don't forget that orcs - especially orc *leaders* are perfectly capable of doing things other than running in and hitting things. If they weren't they wouldn't be nearly the threat they are. That being said, I use the Foundry orcs for my warband, so perhaps my vision of orkiness is a bit off. *Shrug*.
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