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 Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss

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Duce
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PostSubject: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 5:39

Ok this is not me working out a list, but say you have 4 marksmen as reiklander, give each a blunderbuss, longbow and a mace (Heroes all have 1 mace bar leader with 2, champs and Leader have bows making 500gp total just for record).

Would this not be extremely overpowered?

or downgrade the Longbows to bows and give the marksmen 2nd mace, and the champs a 2nd each.

surely 4 blunderbuss shots even though S3 if you fire auto hitting 1-2 models will ead to one maybe 2 going ooa per blunderbuss meaning rout tests quickly?

and the long bows on the way in mean maybe 1-2 down before you get into BB firing range.

Am I reading this as awesome on paper but crap in practice?

7 bows firing on way in (4 are long bows)
4 blunderbuss aoe firing when closer hitting 2+ enemy each
9 men in warband so their in the higher rout test size,


comments? because I could see this quick zerg foward peppering then popping enemy with BB's scoring quick rout tests and makign easy money early games

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 10:05

Are you not only allowed two weapons and a dagger per model?

I seem to remember this being the case scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 11:49

2 melee weapons 2 ranged weapons i believe.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 11:59

wasn't it that you can wear as much weapons as you like, but can only equip a certain number at the time?

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 27 Oct 2008 - 12:05

matt wrote:
wasn't it that you can wear as much weapons as you like, but can only equip a certain number at the time?

Nope.

Duce wrote:
2 melee weapons 2 ranged weapons i believe.

Yep.

Note that for this purpose a brace of pistols may count as a single weapon and a dagger doesn't count at all (you have it in addition to your "normal" two close combat weapons).

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 3:08

bah u lot, bah i say...

give me some input on this question/idea.

-fluffyness
-cheesyness
-fairness
-legitness etc.

curious to find out other people's views on the list both how it looks on paper and in practice.

*holds newspaper*

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 3:53

I for one don't like it, as I hate having warbands armed for effectiveness only (ie. only clubs as hand weapons), but prefer going wysiwyg combined with models having a variety of equipment. So I'd never use them.

Still, they probably will be very effective. Fluffwise, I think it doesn't fit the "rag tag bunch of people with any weapon they could lay hand on" style I always picture mercenaries to be like.
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 5:24

Well to be honest, I haven't got a clue as to how well a blunderbus armed gang would operate as far as the game goes, but, as a black powder weapons freak, I'd LOVE it! I always thought that the Militia Bunderbus was SO cool looking, AND only playable in the Mordheim setting [it's not an option in WHFB].

In "reality" a blunderbus really is only effective at fairly close quarters [under 20 yards], but close up it's devastaating; AND it's a HORRENDOUSLY LOUD weapon [trust me on this one Suspect ].


Last edited by DeafNala on Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 1:30; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 6:21

yay nala cheers

nuck eliazar


on topic:

It could be that the 'Warband' of such is themed as a military unit, or is sent there by a proviance.

I'd say its not reall ymax mining as bad as sword/mace warbands, or mace/dagger warbands who max numbers.

up close due to only having heroes they would suffer a bit, but the 16inch range of the 4 blunder busses eventhough 1 shot only could easily take down 2-3 guys if you make sure to fire at groups of 2+ each time.

Basically your spending 120gold on 4 weapons with 1 shot, that could buy 3 more guys.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 6:36

Duce wrote:
nuck eliazar

See, that's why I didn't say anything at first Sad

Wink

I agree that it's not as bad as a club/sling-skaven warband... And fluffwise, now thinking about again, it would be something like the Mordheim equivalent of those flame thrower crews who used to "clean" bunkers and such, wouldn't it? From this perspective, it does suggest some fun Very Happy However, I would still go for different weapons on some of the heroes, for the sake of variety. And perhaps some pistols would enhance a cleansing patrol feeling...
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 7:10

The blunderbus was widely used as a naval weapon, SO, if ye feel nautical, a Pirate Warband or Nordland Navy Warband would be cool with a bunch of blunderbus armed lads. AAARH! Suspect pirat
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 7:42

i cant remember but arent the BB hits auto and no Bs skill is required?

If so marrienburg would rock with the extra 100g for more men

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 15:52

4 blunderbusses are pushing it, as the thought of an automatic hit is scary

We had a player who had a ton of them, it seemed anyone that could have them did and after half way through the campaign no one wanted to play against that player.
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 2:58

Da Bank wrote:
4 blunderbusses are pushing it, as the thought of an automatic hit is scary

We had a player who had a ton of them, it seemed anyone that could have them did and after half way through the campaign no one wanted to play against that player.

I thought it seemed powerful, good way to stop those skaven with slings hit and running you.

The tatic would actualyl be so much more effective with marienburg due to more money since its an auto hit weapon. they could prob get 5-6 guys with one, thats basically auto win for the early games due to rout tests.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 3:20

(correct me if I'm wrong!) but isn't the Blunderbuss a one-shot-per-game weapon?

If it is I can see how its that overpowered. And I agree with Nala - naval themed blunderbuss warband for the win!


Edit: Page 32, PDF Rulebook

Quote :
Fire Once: It takes a very long time to load a
blunderbuss so it may only be fired it once per
battle.

4 Blunderbusses = 4 shots. Not really a game-breaker is it?
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 3:44

You are, of course, correct, Kurgan. The real problem will be enemies charging your marksmen around corners or slinging/bowing them down before they can launch their shots. The effectiveness of this strategy depends on the experience of your opponent (corner charge, hide) and the amount of scenery on the table. On a blank table this might work - but then again, the marksmen could be shot down by the opponents missile weapons which all have a greater range.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 4:07

I'd still say it's a rather daunting prospect, and I can't find a justification for both bows and blunderbuss on every model. If you model them as a naval unit, I'd suggest some people armed with boathooks (spear/halberds) cutlasses, axes and pistols as well...
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 29 Oct 2008 - 6:02

They are indeed 1 shot, but they auto hit, but think of the tactic,

Ofcourse as Cianty said this relies on cover, but 4 longbows and 3 normal bows to pepper anyone in the open with as you advance your groups which we'll assume has 1 champion and 2 marksmen in (One with your leader)

thats a group with 2 longbow and 2 bows, and a group with 2 long bows and a bow.

if you work the terrain correct you will be able to spear anyone with lines of sight. Now consider that they either have to move to find new cover, or if they attempt to come for you 2+ models you can open fire with 2 auto hitting S3 hits on all the models within 1inch corridor. 16inches means duoble charge range for human mercs for example so you can easily hit them with the bows, then the blunderbusses on their way in to you if positioned right. then melee them down.

i think the autohits at 16inches range is the killer, especially since your hitting not just one guy possible. and at the beginning if you fire 2 blunderbuss at the same guyand hitting his friend, odds are one of them wil fall over, thats 2 down for the 4 blunderbuss, and most warbands at the start will only need 3-4 max before rout tests.

I may be over analysing this but it seems like a great catch the enemy in open or get line of sight, pepper and shot gun. And since your warband has 9 people your not far off most other starting warbands.

Ideally i'm using longbows so as to outrange people, if the enemy choose to advance which they may have to the blunderbuss shots can scare them off or do some damage. its quite a tough table control situation imo.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Mon 10 Nov 2008 - 7:55

More than a naval theme, this suggested to me the idea of a witch hunter band (pitty they cannot take a blunderbuss) armed with cut down shotguns, moving around corners and smithing unaware heretics on sight with their Humphrey Bogart style raincoats blowing in the wind.

Yeah, I like cinematic images afro

More a running battle, with pistoliers and blunderbuss-armed guys than a naval sluggfeast to me.

Just to add my 2 cents.

Cheers,

Xavi
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Tue 11 Nov 2008 - 15:39

Won't work. Blunderbuss is only scary if there is no terrain and you can place the shooters in a row, blunderbuss causes damage to all models(so your own are screwed too if they are in the way), so the guy with the blunderbuss must be the one in front, and that's the one your enemy will shoot at/charge. Blunderbuss is scary, but they don't decide games.

What i haven't figured out so far: does blunderbuss ignore the blackpowder rules? Because the rules say "Each time you roll a 1 when rolling to hit with ablackpowder weapon (handgun, pistol, blunderbuss, warplock pistol, etc)" but you don't roll to hit with that thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 5:11

Yorik wrote:
Won't work. Blunderbuss is only scary if there is no terrain and you can place the shooters in a row, blunderbuss causes damage to all models(so your own are screwed too if they are in the way), so the guy with the blunderbuss must be the one in front, and that's the one your enemy will shoot at/charge. Blunderbuss is scary, but they don't decide games.

What i haven't figured out so far: does blunderbuss ignore the blackpowder rules? Because the rules say "Each time you roll a 1 when rolling to hit with ablackpowder weapon (handgun, pistol, blunderbuss, warplock pistol, etc)" but you don't roll to hit with that thing.


Surely a player can move his warband to get angles on the enemy unless their inside buildings? Also in games where there is an objective, if the blunderbusses get within range of it, then the enemy are basically walking into hurt.

As for the guy being infront not really, he could be slightly behind and to the left of a team member so he can fire and the more defensive guy takes the charge.

It doesn't sound hard to get 1-2 enemy warband members within LOS of each blunderbuss and with auto hit at roughly 16 inches you can shoot someone and not be in charge range.

4 blunderbuss say 2 enemy ooa if you fire all 4 at one person each is still pushing to the rout test range.

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PostSubject: Re: Hum, looking C&C on Bunderbuss   Wed 12 Nov 2008 - 5:18

A blunderbuss also has a longer range than what most people will be charging anyway. Not animals ior vampires, but foot guys rarely move that much.

If you are also worried about being charged, get spears for your blunderbuss guy instead of extra hand weapons.

Cheers,

Xavi
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