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 Mighty blow and Spines

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FallenGnome
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PostSubject: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 1:06

With Mighty Blow skill warrior has +1 Strength in close combat (excluding pistols), does this apply on Spines and Scorpion tail mutation too? I assume that it gives this bonus to Great Claw mutation and there is excluding for pistols, but not with the mutations.
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FallenGnome
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 2:57

Never mind about Spines, it has nothing to do with base Strength, but how about Scorpion tail?
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Athanatosz
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 3:29

Mighty blow gives +1 Strength in close combat.
Spines also cause an automatic hit with a Strength 1 in the close combat sequence. (So it may be increased with mighty blow)
Scorpion Tail gives a S5 wich is a S2 and +3 from the poison. with mighty blow it is an S3 and a +3 with the poison
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FallenGnome
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 3:45

Nice.
I hope that it's correct. Smile
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bitxo
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 12:01

mmm that isn't that clear to me. It really doesn't say it's an S2 attack with +3 because poison, that's an interpretation. It really says it's an extra S5 attack that deals S2 to warriors inmune to poison such as undead. You could argue that attack strenght is fixed regardless buffs and debuffs, such as loosing 1S point because wounds or spells.

Same thing with the spines. Like you said, it isn't related to the warrior S atribute and isn't a regular attack, it works like a skill or spell that triggers at the beggining of every combat phase before any attack.

Think this way, does this attack increase it's strenght if the warrior earns an S adavance? then it works with mighty blow. If not, mighty blow shouldn't be applied.

The thing is I play with Possessed sometimes, and never got mighty blow with scorpion tail. It's a mutation I think fits Mutants better than Possessed, and those don't have access to strenght skills. I think great claw is better for Possessed, provides a better boost for almost the same price.


Last edited by bitxo on Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 15:39; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 14:08

bitxo wrote:

Think this way, does this attack increase it's strenght if the warrior earns an S adavance? then it works with mighty blow. If not, mighty blow shouldn't be applied.
This sounds reasonable to me. Though I've come to learn to sit still and wait for Von Kurst to prove me or anybody else wrong when it comes to rules questions... lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 15:26

Grimscull wrote:
...Though I've come to learn to sit still and wait for Von Kurst to prove me or anybody else wrong when it comes to rules questions...

haha so true!
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Tue 21 Feb 2017 - 18:39

bitxo wrote:
Think this way, does this attack increase it's strenght if the warrior earns an S adavance? then it works with mighty blow. If not, mighty blow shouldn't be applied.
+1 to this.

Claw is generally better, and certainly for Possessed there is no reason to get a claw over a scorpion tail. Mutants might consider getting a scorpion tail over a claw because it doesn't take up a hand that could be used to hold a weapon.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 0:54

bitxo wrote:
mmm that isn't that clear to me. It really doesn't say it's an S2 attack with +3 because poison, that's an interpretation. It really says it's an extra S5 attack that deals S2 to warriors inmune to poison such as undead. You could argue that attack strenght is fixed regardless buffs and debuffs, such as loosing 1S point because wounds or spells.

I'm not saying that the assumed basic strength can't be buffed or debuffed. As it says it can be debuffed if the opponent immune to poision. I think it is an 2S+3 poison attack you said it is a S5-3 if immune to poison, seems to same to me.

bitxo wrote:
Same thing with the spines. Like you said, it isn't related to the warrior S attribute and isn't a regular attack, it works like a skill or spell that triggers at the beginning of every combat phase before any attack.


bitxo wrote:
Think this way, does this attack increase it's strength if the warrior earns an S advance? then it works with mighty blow. If not, mighty blow shouldn't be applied.

Mighty blow clearly says it's increase only close combat attacks. So it's not increase ranged (thrown) attacks strength as a Strength attribute increase will.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 1:52

bitxo wrote:
Think this way, does this attack increase it's strenght if the warrior earns an S adavance? then it works with mighty blow. If not, mighty blow shouldn't be applied.
+1
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 2:15

After reading whole description about Mighty Blow again, there is no single mentioning about "attack". It says: "... has a +1 Strength bonus in close combat ..." Although, it also says: "Strength is used for close combat weapons, so the bonus applies to all such a weapons".
So the question would be: Are the Spines and Scorpion tail close combat weapons? Or does it even matter, since Mighty Blow gives +1 Strength in close combat, no matter what (except pistols as it says). Why there is no a phrase after "excluding pistols", like "... and mutations"? Or why there is no restrictions about skills having no effect on mutations?
Strike to Injure skill has effect on damages made by mutations wouldn't it? Why would Mighty Blow be an exception?
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 3:13

FallenGnome wrote:
So the question would be: Are the Spines and Scorpion tail close combat weapons?

Same question bothered me to. The very first weapon described it in the weapons section in the core book is fist.

I see tails, spines, claws, tusks, claws, fangs, teeth, horns, thorns etc. as "natural" weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 12:51

well, Mordheim rulebook is infamous for how vaguely some rules are described, so I don't think stablishing if mutations are weapons or not solve anything for sure, but if you think about it any close combat weapon attack increases its strenght when you earn +1S as advance, except pistols. Spines and scorpion tail doesn't benefit from S advances also. Did you say mighty blow explicitly says pistols don't benefit from the skill? well, you have a connection there.

And while the interpretation about mutations is questionable at least, I think getting Spines becomes a no brainer choice and OP if it combines with mighty blow (33% chances of wounding any T3 warrior + critics chances, every combat round before any action, even charging foes... way too good). So, leaving rules interpretations away, as far as it unbalances the game, doesn't benefit is a clear answer to me.


Last edited by bitxo on Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 15:08; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 13:50

R3 ?

Spines will never cause critical hits.

But yes in the spine case i could agree.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 15:09

LOL T3... toughness = resistencia Razz

True, didn't remember Spines never cause critics. S2 spines is still way too good against most warbands IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Wed 22 Feb 2017 - 16:36

RAW Mighty Blow will not increase Spines or Scorpion Tail or Pistols or anything else with a fixed strength. The reason it increases a weapon's strength in close combat is because pretty much all close combat weapons *say* they use the strength of the user, be it just plain S or S+2 or S-1 or whatever.

Even if Mighty Blow didn't specifically say it didn't affect pistols in close combat it still wouldn't affect pistols in close combat because pistols have a fixed strength.

Similarly, it doesn't have to say it doesn't affect Spines or Scorpion Tail because they are a fixed strength. You could have Strength 10 and Mighty Blow, but Pistols and Spines and Scorpion Tails will still only hit at S4, S1, or S5 (or S2 vs undead) respectively because they don't use the user's strength.

Feel free to house-rule any of the above, of course, but it will be just that - a house rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Thu 23 Feb 2017 - 0:10

I agree and I think that Mighty Blow won't work for Spines and this part explains it: "As his Strength is used for close combat weapons ...". So it works only for weapons using warrior's strength.
For the Spines (even if Str 2) is op isn't true, how about Resilient? Killing whole effect permanently or (if MB would work) reducing Spines back to Strength 1 hit?
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PostSubject: Re: Mighty blow and Spines   Thu 23 Feb 2017 - 0:27

The main problem here is the interpretation of the original rules. If you want we can call the clarification house rule(s).
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