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 Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.

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PostSubject: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 13:46

So, I've not had the chance to play with Wagons in any games yet, and they look interesting, if nothing else. I have several questions though:

1) When shooting from atop a wagon, you get a penalty for the wagon itself moving. Does the model firing from atop the wagon technically count as stationary for purposes of move-or-fire weapons?

2) When shooting at a wagon, you randomize the part hit. This includes parts that are out of line-of-fire (shoot the wagon from the back, hit a horse up front). Does it work as follows?

3) When buying the wagon, it comes without the draft horses. What happens if the faction in question cannot use draft horses?

4) Are wagons actually useful in-game once you've reached a certain progression in the game? Or are they mostly a cute gimmick?

5) Are there any good homebrews/supplements for tricking out wagons (armor plating, swivel guns, spiky wheels, etc)?

Last edited by MagicJuggler on Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 8:14; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 16:39

1) You have to house rule this as there is no mention of it in the rules (TC#24, p. 17).  If it helps my group plays that you may fire a move or fire weapon (but still suffer the -1 for the wagon moving). Reaching this decision always takes at least five minutes of discussion though.

2)That depends on your group, it is easier to just use the table provided and accept odd results, but again you can house rule to your hearts' content.

3)More house rules!  If you wish to allow a warband that may not have something to have it, that's pretty much all you got.  If you are familiar with the old Warhammer game, draft animals are rather  easy to create from the allowed mounts for the warband or common sense.

4)I vote gimmick.  My experience is that the warband that wants to run the wagon counts on its opponents to NOT read the rules for wagons and makes them up. There are four pages of rules and five separate tables to help determine outcomes of damage or actions, but most of those do NOT apply to your questions. So you need house rules and patience.

5)Swivel guns are easy.  Just take the appropriate shooting skill and purchase one (if your group allows the purchase of warband specific weapons by warbands not allowed them).  Otherwise if you do make up some rules for customized wagons, please report on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Thu 30 Jun 2016 - 17:31

This is an early homebrew I whipped up, that I want the chance to playtest sooner or later.
These rules are very much designed for "Narrative" or "Special Scenario" play. Be it defending the stagecoach/circling the wagons, or a stronghold assault where the defenders must stop the Siege Tower before it's too late...

Although one could theoretically attempt to pour gold into creating the ultimate min-maxed gun-carriage of doom, the money involved would be impractical, as well as the restrictions on moving through terrain, as well as the need to plan for scenarios where you have to smash&grab wyrdstone, etc.

==Early Draft Rules for overhauling mounts & vehicles==

=How many mounts can you take anyway?=
At the start of your campaign, determine how prevalent mounts will be.
-No Mounts: No models may take any mounts, and no wagons may be taken. This is ideal for "underground/indoor" campaigns, (ex: Karak Azgal, etc).
-Limited Mounts: Only Heroes may take Mounts, and a maximum of two Mounts may be taken. Monstrous Mounts and Carriages may not be taken unless specifically included in their Warband Entry (ex: Plague Carts for the Carnival of Chaos, the Giant Spider for Forest Goblins). This is mostly ideal for "Urban" campaigns, like the default Mordheim Setting.
-Mostly Mounted: Heroes and Henchmen may take Mounts, though only Heroes may take Monstrous Mounts. Warbands may have up to 2 Monstrous Mounts, and may take a Carriage.
-Mounted Campaign: Heroes and Henchmen may take Mounts, though only Heroes may take Monstrous Mounts. The army should have enough Carriages to carry all its Infantry Models which do not have mounts. Each Warband gets an additional 50% of its starting gold which *must* be either spent on Mounts, or Carriages/Draft Animals. (So a Marienburg army gets an extra 300 gold).

=Attacking a mounted model=
When attacking a mount with a ranged attack, should the attack hit, roll another D6 to determine whether the rider or mount is hit. On a 1-3, the Mount is hit. On a 4-6, the rider is hit. Should the mount be carrying multiple riders, randomly determine which rider is hit.

When attacking a mounted model in close combat, you may select whether to attack the mount or the rider.

Should the mount be reduced to its last wound, it immediately makes a Whoa Boy! roll. Should a rider be reduced to its last wound, it takes an Injury Roll. Should the rider suffer a Knocked Down or a Stunned result, it must immediately take an Initiative check. Should it fail, it falls from its mount; resolve this with the normal Falling Rules. Note that unless the mount has already rolled on the Whoa Boy! table this turn, then the rider may not be the target of any coup de grace, as the mount must still be accounted for.

=Monstrous Mounts=

The term Monstrous Mount is used to refer to appropriately large and impressive mounts. Such mounts take even more resources for a Warband to support, but the inclusion of even one can provide a Warband with a combination of pack mule, terror weapon, weapon platform.

All Monstrous Mounts have the following special rules:

Cause Fear: Monstrous Mounts are scary, and automatically Cause Fear.
Large: Monstrous Mounts are Large, and automatically add at least +20 points to your Warband Rating.
Down But Not Out: Monstrous Mounts cannot be Knocked Down or Stunned. Rather, place a Stagger Counter on the Mount each Knocked Down result it receives, or D3+1 Stagger Counters for each Stunned result it receives, up to a maximum of 6 Stagger Counters. (One option is to place a separate colored die next to the Monstrous Mount). For each Stagger Counter on a Monstrous Mount, it suffers a -1 Move penalty (to a minimum of 0), and a -1 Attack Penalty (to a minimum of 0). The Monstrous Mount removes D3 Stagger Counters at the start of its controlling player's Recovery Phase; remove an additional Stagger Counter should the Monstrous Mount be within 6" of a friendly model with the appropriate Handler Skill.

When rolling to shoot a Monstrous Mount, subtract 1 from the roll to determine whether the mount or rider is hit. That is, a Monstrous Mount is hit on a roll of 1-4, and the Rider is hit on a 5-6. When a Monstrous Mount loses its last wound, roll on the Injury Table rather than the Whoa Boy! table.

=New Mount Options=

Camel (Arabian factions only: This includes the Ghutani/Muzil/Turjuk tribes from Relics of the Crusades, and the Arabian Tomb Raiders from the Khemri campaign). Cost: 50 GC, Rarity 7.

M 7, WS 3, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, Ld 6, Sv -, A 0

Special Rules:
Unpleasant Smell: Camels cause Fear in horses.
Ship of the Desert: Camels ignore any scenario rules for heat/water in desert-based settings.

Hopping Squig (Night Goblins only): For an extra 15 gold, a Squig may be outfitted with a crude harness for a Goblin to ride on.

Magic Carpet: Magic Carpets count as a regular Mount, that can carry two riders. Magic Carpets are Toughness 3 with 1 wound, and cannot be stunned or knocked down under any circumstances. They do not roll on the Whoa Boy! table, but anytime they're wounded, roll a D6. On a roll of 6, the Carpet is torn and comes crashing to the ground, and the Riders test for Falling! On a 1-2 post-battle, the carpet has been damaged beyond repair and must be discarded.

=New Monstrous Mounts=
Some Monsters from the Monster Hunt scenario in the Mordheim Annual 2002 may be tamed as mounts. These include the Young Hippogriff (Humans only), Young Griffon (Humans only), and Young Wyvern (Orcs only).

Giant Spider (Goblins Only): See Forest Goblins entry from Nemesis Crown
Giant Squig (Goblins Only): The Giant Squig uses the following profile:
WS 4, BS 0, S 5, T 4, W 3, I 4, Ld 4, Sv -, A 3
Special Rules: Skull of Iron, Down but Not Out
Special Rule: "Alpha". Any other Squig (except Giant Squigs or Mangler Squigs) within 6" of a Giant Squig may roll an extra die and discard one for its compulsory movement.

Trained Bear: The Kislevite Giant Bear may be used as a Monstrous Mount. Because Bear Cavalry.

Barding: Horses may take Barding.
Light Barding: +1 to Armor Save, Horse only gets removed from the warband on a 1. Cost ??
Heavy Barding: +2 To Armor Save, Horse only gets removed from the warband on a 1, -1 movement. Cost ??
Stirrups: If a rider suffers a Knocked Down or Stunned result while mounted, it may reroll a failed Initiative check to stay onboard. Note that the second result stands, even if it is also a failed check. Cost ??
Zamburak: A Zamburak is uses a camel's hump to stabilize a weapon mount. This could be anything from an oversized crossbow to a small falconet. A Camel with a Zamburak may take either a Scorpion or a Swivel Gun, which may be fired by its Rider. The weapon *may* be fired on the move, but on a roll of 1 to hit, the Camel must make a roll on the Whoa Boy! table. Cost: 25 GC, Rarity 9

Carriage is a catch-all term used for chariots, carts, coaches, carriages, or any other wheeled conveyance of its kind. This also includes Siege Towers, rams, etc.

=Buying a Carriage=
Unless the campaign setting states otherwise, a Warband may only have one Carriage maximum: The cost of a carriage includes:
-The carriage itself
-A minimum of two wheels; these wheels must be at least of the same weight class of the carriage they're purchased for. A Light Carriage could have Medium Wheels or Heavy Wheels, but a Medium Carriage would not be able to have Light Wheels. A Carriage may not have a mixture of wheel weights; for example, a Light Carriage may not have Light *and* Heavy Wheels. A Carriage must buy an even number of wheels, and they must be distributed on both sides of the carriage.
-Optionally, the cost of any draft animals to pull it (a carriage may alternately be pushed around by infantry warband members). Any creature capable of serving as a mount or monstrous mount may serve as a draft animal, unless noted otherwise.

Carriages come in three weight classes.
-A Light Carriage is 30 GC for the carriage hull, and 5 GC for each Light Wheel.
A Light Carriage is Toughness 4, has 4 wounds, and a 5+ Save. In addition to its driver, it may carry up to two passengers or passenger-equivalents.
Light Wheels are Toughness 4, have 2 wounds, and a 5+ Save.
-A Medium Carriage is 60 GC for the carriage hull, and 10 GC for each Medium Wheel. A Medium Carriage is Toughness 5, has 5 wounds, and a 4+ Save. In addition to its driver, it may carry up to four passengers or passenger-equivalents. A Medium Carriage has a -2 Movement Penalty.
Medium Wheels are Toughness 5, have 3 wounds, and a 4+ Save.
-A Heavy Carriage is 120 GC for the carriage hull, and 20 GC for each Heavy Wheel. A Medium Carriage is Toughness 6, has 6 Wounds, and a 3+ Save. In addition to its driver, it may carry up to six passengers or passenger-equivalents.
A Heavy Carriage has a -4 Movement Penalty.
Heavy Wheels are Toughness 6, have 4 wounds, and a 3+ Save.

=Moving a carriage=
As long as a Carriage has at least one good wheel on each side of it, and at least two draft animals that are not knocked down, stunned, or out of action, it may move at the speed of its slowest draft animal, modified by the movement penalty for the carriage in question. For each additional draft animal beyond the second, the Carriage may ignore one point of Move Penalty.

Note that if for, whatever reason, the Carriage has no draft animals, it may be pushed, with each large infantry model counting as one Draft Animal (For when you want your Trolls to push Siege Towers), and each non-large infantry model pushing counting as two draft animals. These infantry models must either be in base-to-base with the Carriage's front or back (depending on the direction they wish to push) itself, or in base-to-base with a model that is in base-to-base with the carriage itself. The Carriage may not be pushed from the side, though it may Pivot as long as it is capable of at least 1" of movement as a result of being pushed.

Example: A Human Merchant Wagon has been found abandoned in the middle of the Street, and the enterprising Marienburgers decide to roll it up to set up a preliminary barricade against the oncoming horde of Zombies. Four members of the Warband push it, with a -2 Movement Penalty, so they may move it 2" per turn. Thankfully, this is just enough for them to close off the corridor before the Zombies attempt to run.

Certain circumstances may increase or otherwise multiply any move penalties suffered by a Carriage. Note that any multipliers for Move Penalties are cumulative, and precede any offsets from having additional Draft Animals.
-If the vehicle has only one side with wheels (for example, all wheels on the other side of the carriage have been taken Out of Action), then double all move penalties. Should the vehicle have no wheels that have not been taken Out of Action, then quadruple movement penalties instead.
-If the vehicle is only being pulled by one Draft Animal (or is being pushed by its equivalent), then double all movement penalties.

Example: A Goblin Medium Carriage is pulled by 4 wolves, granting it a move of 9". If the Carriage lost two Wolves, it would only have an effective move of 7". If it was down to one Wolf, it would only have an effective move of 3".

Like in the core wagon rules, the vehicle may move, pivot up to 45", then Apply the Lash. Rather than it being a binary "As long as there are no stunned/knocked out draft animals" roll, simply modify the D6 roll by -1 for each and every draft animal that is still attached that is stunned/knocked down. Should the modified result be a 1 or less, the wagon takes an Out of Control roll as normal.

=Shooting at a Carriage=
A carriage is a large target and may be fired at accordingly.
You may take a -2 to-hit penalty to attempt to hit a specific target (The Skill "Trick Shooter" ignores this penalty). This may include: The Driver, a mount, a wheel, or any specific passenger or cargo. If you don't have Trick Shooter and miss by 1 or miss by 2 while attempting to hit a specific target, you hit the carriage itself instead.

=Assaulting a Carriage=
These rules are as in the standard Empire & Flames rules.

=Carriage Damage=
Whenever a wheel or carriage loses its last wound, it is out of action for the battle. At the end of the battle, you may roll a D6 to see if it can be salvaged. On a 1-2, the wheel or carriage is damaged beyond repair, but on a 3-6, the vehicle can be patched up.

=Carriage Upgrades=
Gold costs for these are still pending.

-Additional Level: This is used to represent a Siege Tower, or similarly large conveyance. The Carriage Hull's wounds, passenger capacity, and movement penalties are multiplied for each Additional Level added to the Carriage; these Passenger Slots are evenly distributed among the Carriage's levels (so a Heavy Carriage with 3 Levels could carry 6 Passengers in its first level, 6 in its second level, 6 in its 3rd level). A Medium Carriage may take this once, and a Heavy Carriage may take it twice.
-Armor Plating: A Carriage with Armor Plating has +2 to its hull armor saves, and is only damaged beyond repair on a roll of 1. A Carriage with Armor Plating suffers an additional -2 Move Penalty; note that a Steam Engine changes up the rules accordingly. Cost: 100% of the price of the Carriage Hull.
-Corpse Cart (Undead warbands only). This Carriage may not carry passengers besides the driver. Rather, *all* Zombies within 6" of the Carriage gain an extra 2 to their Move Characteristic, and an extra Attack.
-Extra Space: The Carriage may carry additional passengers equal to 50% of its base Passenger Capacity, and has 50% more movement penalty. Cost: 50% of the price of the carriage hull.
-Featherweight Material (Elves Only): This may not be combined with the "Armor Plating" Upgrade. A carriage with Featherweight Material counts as one category lighter for purposes of Move Penalties, though its hull suffers a -1 Toughness Penalty. Cost: Pending.
-Full-wheel gearbox: A carriage with a full-wheel gearbox may make an additional 45" turn before its regular move. Cost: TBD.
-Heavy Weapon: For each Passenger slot that the Carriage sacrifices, it may take one Emplaced Weapon. Cost: TBD
--Bolt Thrower
--Jezzail (Skaven Only):
--Light Cannon
--Swivel Gun: See Pirates entry.
-Howdah: This carriage is not actually wheeled, but is mounted on the back of a Large Animal that does not have Wings (ex a Rhinox or a Stegadon, but not a Griffon or a Wyvern). As long as the Carriage could be carried atop the Large Animal without any Move Penalties, then it may be included on the back without the need to pay for any wheels. When rolling to shoot the Carriage/Mount, roll a D6. On a 1-3 the Large Animal is hit. On a 4-6, the Carriage itself is hit. Enemy models may attempt to target specific models, as though shooting a Carriage like normal. Cost: 25% of the cost of the Carriage Hull.
-Opulent Livery: The wagon also counts as an Opulent Coach, for purposes of searching for Rare Items. Cost: TBD.
-Plague Livery: (Carnival of Chaos Only). The wagon counts as a Plague Cart.  Cost: TBD.
-Ratwheels: (Skaven Only). For those that want Doomwheels. Implementation and rules TBD.
Shock Absorbers: Shock Absorbers let you take less damage from Collisions. Cost: TBD.
Scythed Wheels: Whenever Scythed Wheel Carriage passes within 2" of any model, that model must take an Initiative Check or suffer a hit equal to the toughness of the Wheel in question. These hits do *NOT* force the Carriage to make an Out of Control Roll. Cost: 50% of the Wheel itself.
Shrine To Chaos: Once per game, the Carriage may automatically cast Eye of God on a friendly model within 6". (Cost: 50 GC)
Steam Engine (Reiklanders only): It was less than a score after the fall of Sigmar's Comet that Leonardo Di Miragliano, already known as one of the greatest minds in Tilea, would go to Altdorf to join the Imperial College of Engineers. One of his greatest contributions was the development of a device that would boil water and use the pressurized steam to provide its own motion.

The Carriage ignores the normal rules for Movement and Movement Penalties, and is able to move without Draft Animals as follows:
A Carriage generates 1 Steam Point for each point of Weight it has. So a Light Carriage generates 1 Steam Point, a Medium Carriage generates 2 Steam Points, and a Heavy Carriage generates 3 Steam Points. It generates one Steam Point less for each Additional Level it has. The Carriage may spend Steam Points to move. A Light Carriage moves 5" for every Steam Point spent. A Medium Carriage moves 4" for every Steam Point spent, and a Heavy Carriage moves 3" for every Steam Point spent. Subtract 1" of movement for each point of Steam spent *if* the Carriage has Heavy Armor.

The Steam Engine may attempt to output up to three additional Steam Points. When it does so, roll 2d6 and add the additional points that were meant to be generated. On a roll of 12+, the Steam Engine explodes and the Carriage may not attempt to move for the rest of the battle. Any models in the same level as the Steam Engine take an automatic hit with a Strength equal to the total number of Steam Points that would have been generated that turn.

The Steam Engine takes up half the *base* the number of Passengers that the Carriage can carry (should it have Additional Levels, only the bottommost level suffers this penalty), before any other modifiers are taken into account. For example, a Heavy Carriage (6 Passengers), with Steam Engine, Expanded Capacity, and Additional Level could have 6 Passengers in its first level, and 9 in its second level.

Optionally, the Carriage may replace its Driver Slot with a Heavy Weapon for the appropriate cost. This may be fired by spending a Steam Point.

Cost: Twice the base cost of the Carriage Hull. Rarity: 12.

Last edited by MagicJuggler on Fri 8 Jul 2016 - 11:28; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Fri 1 Jul 2016 - 21:30

I really like the stirrups idea. thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Sat 2 Jul 2016 - 6:26

Ditto for stirrups. I'd keep the cost low with a low/medium rarity to encourage use.

I like the weapon slots and other ideas for improving wagons.
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PostSubject: Re: Wagons: Questions, and some homebrew.   Wed 6 Jul 2016 - 8:31

Made a few small edits here and there. Cleanup of the "Monstrous Mounts" section, added an entry for Camels, added the Zamburak as a special option for Camels.

Stirrups aren't exactly new/super-rare, but getting a good fit for a mount is always easier said than done. I'm initially imagining Stirrups would be approximately 15 GC, rarity 6 or so, and they must be specific to a general type of mount (ex: Stirrups made for a Horse could be used for a Horse/Warhorse/Arabian Steed/Nightmare/etc, but not for a Wolf or Spider). Therefore, Add +10 GC and +2 to the Rarity for adding them to a non-horse mount (Hey, it's not like building custom stirrups for a Cold One is the safest job out there!).

There are a few other points I'm contemplating too:

-Requiring draft animals for a carriage may well be an "optional" component. Besides wagons/chariots/siege towers/howdahs/etc, other options include rickshaws, battering rams, or push-carriages (be it an explosive-laden handcart, or a Skaven Tunneling Device). I'm imagining the option for some carriages to replace the driver/yoke area with another component.

-Scythed Wheels or similar "Collision" abilities should only apply if the wagon has moved a certain minimum distance (the wagon must move a minimum of 4" or so?).

I know werekin is working on Mutiny in Marienburg, and StyrofoamKing did the Sartosa campaign, but ideally, if a wagon supplement gets rolling (ha!), then merging Wagon Upgrades with whatever "Build a Ship/Fortification" supplements are out there would also rock.
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