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 Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll

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2704ENG
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PostSubject: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 2:50

So going to kick off a Mordheim campaign in around 3 weeks time. It'll be my Orcs and Gobbos along with a Possessed and a Undead warband to battleit out.

House rules that we'll be using include dual wield fix (-2 off hand offset w/skill), armour boost (increased save and serious injury avoidance), shield (save in CC), Parry (compare D6 + WS) and slings (-1 Str).


Here's my list so far:

------------------

Mob Boss - 90pts (halbred)

Big Un (Axe Ranger Dude) - 55 pts (Axe, bow)

Big Un - (Sword Master Dude) - 55pts (Sword, buckler)

Sharman - 43 pts (Hammer)

-------------------

Henchmen Group 1

Orc Boyz - 28pts (Hammer, dagger)


Henchmen Group 2

Orc Boyz - 28pts (Hammer, dagger)

Troll - 200pts

--------------------

Total - 499pts

--------------------

I know the community is divided on starting with a big expensive monster - but I've decided to go this way for two reasons:

First means less models to paint up  Very Happy  

I'll have a functioning warband that includes only 7 models.

Second my thinking is that if you don't by a troll at the start then chances are you never will. Once the campaign gets going you'll likely be spending all your income on upgrading your warband to keep up with the others. If you're trying to save 200gc for that Troll it'll probably mean that you're skimping on your warband development. This then puts you at a distinct disadvantage as your opponents pours all their gc into improving their warbands while you lag behind waiting for that troll to come in.

Aware that with only 7 models there'll be scenarios that I'm going to struggle with. However my plan is to wreak as much havoc as I can in CC to offset this.

Comments and suggestions welcome.

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 3:09

Hi!

In my opinion the troll is even riskier than the other big guys around. He might never truly die as long as you can keep feeding him but stupidity is an immense drawback. Your leader will have to be within 6'' of the troll if you want to have a real chance of it doing anything, and that's also who your opponents will be coming for. Remember that you need to roll for stupidity even when you're in close combat and failure means the troll won't be doing much of anything. If your leader goes out of action you'll be stuck on LD4 for this.

At the same time you'll be up against possessed and undead who have powerful fighters themselves, and a troll who behaves at the right times will be very helpful there. I'd try to stock up some more bows to keep your opponents nervous with their big hitters. Take your shots at them whenever you get the chance. Your boss, having BS4, should definitely get a bow or similar unless conflicts the theme you're going for.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 3:43

Hmmmm can see your point MasterSpark.

Guess with the warband already suffering from animosity you don't really want another 25% failure rate to further exacerbate the warband's unpredictability...

Good point about protecting the Warboss - maybe I should ditch the halberd and give him an axe and shield combo? With S4 he'll probably be wounding on 3s most of the time and this would also give him a 5+ save in CC.

Yeah didn't take the bow for mainly for theme reasons - think the Warboss is far to stompy to be shooting arrows but it does seem a waste of his BS4.

I'm still tempted to give it a try - 3 x S5 attacks, 3 Wounds and Regeneration to start off the campaign just seem too good to pass up - even if you'll only get to use it 75% of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 5:14

I'd agree with MasterSpark - the Boss should be the one with the Bow. Also, I'd swap his Halberd with a Sword, as you'd rather protect him than having him deal damage in melee; he is unreplaceable and an opponent would most likely go for him due to the Troll. Sword and Shield with his WS4 would then be a great use of him imo.

This means I'd change your list to:

------------------

Mob Boss - 105 gc (Sword, Dagger, Shield & Bow)

Big Un - 53 gc (Hammer, Dagger & Bow)

Big Un - 43 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

Sharman - 43 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

-------------------

Henchmen Group 1

Orc Boyz - 28 gc (Hammer & Dagger)


Henchmen Group 2

Orc Boyz - 28 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

Troll - 200 gc

--------------------

Total - 500 gc

--------------------
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 6:38

Yeah, unfortunately the troll's stupidity is such a big weakness that it can't be understated. The boss can't even get easy access to academic skills to increase his leader range, which means that he's gotta stick really close to the troll if you want any kind of dependability. The skaven rat ogre has a much stronger set of rules since all 6 of their heroes can fill the part.

You should still go ahead with the idea to try it out. Make sure to keep your boss as safe as you can while still getting your troll into action. Try to avoid elevated shooters picking off your boss from a distance. A fully functioning troll is more than a match for a starting vampire or possessed and if you can get those match ups you should definitely go for it. It's not a big deal if the troll goes out of action, after all.

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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 9:30

Quote :
I know the community is divided on starting with a big expensive monster - but I've decided to go this way for two reasons:

1--Because ye are extremely intelligent.
2--Because the Troll is awesome!

Namby pamby number crunchers! Why in my day we counted with fingers and toes and did fine! Fine I tell ye! Just stay out of narrow alleyways and away from heights and ye'll be fine lad.

Quote :
and slings (-1 Str)
Sigh. I have to assume that lesser lights came up with this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 10:40

One subtle thing the troll actually has going for it is exactly it's biggest weakness: it's unpredictable! The enemy might become a bit too confident that you're going to fail your stupidity tests after your boss gets blitzed, but then the troll suddenly has a lucid moment and attacks something important that the opponent left within reach.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 11:32

The enemy going for the boss? Keep the troll beside him or in front of him (in front of the boss is tactically superior, but the boss probably has other ideas). The troll is an idiot, but he is a very nasty idiot who can generally be relied on to hit things hard while the boss is around. The fact that he is immortal makes him well worth every gold crown.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 12:48

I have always said that if you want a Troll, start with a Troll. You are absolutely right that you will not be able to save up 200gp without hamstinging yourself in terms of keeping up with the enemy.

A Troll can cause problems for the enemy player psychologically - they will always have to take steps to counter it and that will tie up some of their warband, even when the Troll sucks his fist and drools for a few turns on end! When he does get stuck in he will cause absolutely havoc.

That said, my most successful Orc and Goblin warbands were those that did not use a Troll - 20 Orcs with two handweapons and crossbows are lethal killers at any stage of a campaign!

But don't let that put you off trying it at least once. They are loads of fun that has to be tried on occasion. It will make games that get talked about for years if nothing else.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 16:19

Aipha wrote:
I'd agree with MasterSpark - the Boss should be the one with the Bow. Also, I'd swap his Halberd with a Sword, as you'd rather protect him than having him deal damage in melee; he is unreplaceable and an opponent would most likely go for him due to the Troll. Sword and Shield with his WS4 would then be a great use of him imo.

This means I'd change your list to:

------------------

Mob Boss - 105 gc (Sword, Dagger, Shield & Bow)

Big Un - 53 gc (Hammer, Dagger & Bow)

Big Un  - 43 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

Sharman - 43 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

-------------------

Henchmen Group 1

Orc Boyz - 28 gc (Hammer & Dagger)


Henchmen Group 2

Orc Boyz - 28 gc (Hammer & Dagger)

Troll - 200 gc

--------------------

Total - 500 gc

--------------------

That's a good list mate... although less themey it is probably a lot more effective.

By having the troll will mean that your Warboss is tethered to it but hopefully they'll form a wrecking ball to plow through the enemy lines.

We might also incorporate another house rule so that all models have to start on the ground plane. This will nullify those annoying marksmen starting off holed up on that bloody 3 storey watch tower that's impossible to get to.

The other good thing is that I'll only have two henchmen - which means only two animosity tests to take Very Happy

Quote :
"Quote :
and slings (-1 Str)

Sigh. I have to assume that lesser lights came up with this one.

-1Str only applies if you're firing twice. But happy to consider other suggestions.

Overall I'm not too concerned about getting shot to pieces as I don't think the Undead and Possessed have access to scary marksmen type units. Hopefully the inclusion of the troll will negate some of those annoying fear tests.

Thinking of also starting a thread under the battle report section - might to interesting after all this debate how a new warband with the troll inclusion actually gets on during a campaign.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 23:05

2704ENG wrote:

We might also incorporate another house rule so that all models have to start on the ground plane. This will nullify those annoying marksmen starting off holed up on that bloody 3 storey watch tower that's impossible to get to.

My suggestion there is to either make sure that you don't place those buildings near the table edges and/or scatter a bunch of ladders around to make the buildings accessible to everyone. The game becomes more interesting when everyone needs to move around to secure good positions.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 1:36

those house rules look great, of course Skaven players will disagree, but slings are way too good for 2gc, like short bows but better for less than half the cost... it makes no sense. I've never tried Orcs, but having a troll seems fun, so go for it! I guess it isn't the most competitive list Orcs can pull out, but if you hide your boss behind the big guy using a bow, it will be difficult to rivals to deal with your band. Fun list > Power player list.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 2:28

MasterSpark wrote:
2704ENG wrote:

We might also incorporate another house rule so that all models have to start on the ground plane. This will nullify those annoying marksmen starting off holed up on that bloody 3 storey watch tower that's impossible to get to.

My suggestion there is to either make sure that you don't place those buildings near the table edges and/or scatter a bunch of ladders around to make the buildings accessible to everyone. The game becomes more interesting when everyone needs to move around to secure good positions.

Yep very sensible suggestion - think I'm going to steal it pirat

Re-ladders another house rule we're thinking of is that you test against your Initiative to see if you want to 'kick' away the ladder (free action). If successful the ladder gets kicked away and the opponent will have to allocate one model to put up the ladder again. That model can't do anything else for that turn.

If you fail your Initiative test then you end up air swinging and the model falls off the edge and take Str hits relative to height as per rule book.

Don't know... might be a fun mechanic to throw in but will make those high I elf rangers even harder to flush out.

We'll see what happens after some play testing.

Yeah agree that starting with 12 T4 Orcs is probably a more effective list but then you don't get to field any of the cooler models. Plus Mordheim in itself isn't very balanced and I think the randomness will add to the fun!

Although still not sure about have the warboss sulking behind the troll with a bow - just doesn't seem very orky... although I might come around to the idea if after a few games the warboss becomes a pincushion and the troll becomes an expensive paper weight.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 19:14

+1 to ladders and building placement.

Another alternative is setting the building they are in on fire; fire arrows are good for this because you can do it from so far away, but there are others e.g Fire Bombs, Torches, etc.

Slings aren't broken. In the hands of a hero, the shortbow is the better weapon. Heck, in my group we *buffed* slings and things were still not unbalanced*.

When I run orcs I give my leader Nimble and Quickshot and give him a crossbow. That BS 4 is really too good to waste.

*Admittedly all we did was add to their utility. We allow slings to fire Holy Water and Fire Bombs and stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 20:40

I have never found slings to be broken, either.

Slinging Holy Water - I like!
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Wed 24 Feb 2016 - 15:12

There was a player running Orcs & Goblins with a troll in one of the campaigns I ran.  The troll always stuck close to his warboss, acting like a bodyguard, and when the two of them hit your troops it was nasty!  There was the odd failed stupidity test but then Orc mobs usually have their advances slowed by animosity so it wasn't too big a problem.  That campaign didn't see much in the way of ranged warbands either, which probably helped the orcs.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Wed 24 Feb 2016 - 16:36

One last questions about the troll - what weapons (if any) does it have?

In the warband roster it says that it can't be given any weapons or armour but often carries a big club.

So does this mean that it gets to roll for crits on the Hammers/Club advance table?

Some might argue that since it can't be given any equipment that it's fighting with fists only which would mean +1 armour save for the opponent.

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Wed 24 Feb 2016 - 17:20

Many other big guy's who use unarmed attacks do not suffer from the +1 armour save. The often carry and never given a tricky one. I think the often carry a club stands for modelling and the do not need weapon and cant be given means the troll use unarmed attacks (and crit's) and as they arms are natural weapons do not add a +1 armour save.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Wed 24 Feb 2016 - 22:13

I agree with Athanatosz, treat the troll as fighting unarmed but without any penalties. It's clearly something that they just missed to include in the list. If the troll was actually fighting with its fists (as in the 'fist' weapon) it would not only give +1 armour save to the enemy but be limited to a single S4 attack per turn, defeating its purpose entirely.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Thu 25 Feb 2016 - 8:41

Just finished a league with orcs and goblins, and I took a troll right out the gate. I had a lot of fun with him!

from a competitive stand point he can be in the middle of the pack for progression, but from a pure hilarity out look he made my games a lot more interesting.

my opponents would fear the big guy crossing the field to their warband only to see him go stupid the turn he needed to charge. they would breath a sigh of relief and think the troll useless then next turn he would get smart wham! hew like a bull dozer.

the player that hated him the most was our dwarf player, who was all expensive armored up. The vomit attack just chucked that special armor out the window!

so I vote yes to troll, just on the fun aspect.
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PostSubject: Re: Orcs and Gobbos - Starting with Troll   Thu 25 Feb 2016 - 15:36

Yep very sensible advice on the trolls attacks - will be definitely adding it to our list of campaign house rules.

EGrot wrote:
Just finished a league with orcs and goblins, and I took a troll right out the gate. I had a lot of fun with him!

Agree whole heartily - I think the whole unpredictability will no doubt lead to some hilarious moments. Also if you don't get from straight from the get go it's unlikely that you'll be ever able to afford one further down the track. Definitely set on starting with the troll so will keep you guys posted on how things pan out.

Lastly I stumbled upon this excellent post:

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t6691-translating-btb-campaign-objectives-to-mordheim

Big fan of the campaign objectives - except not sure if we're playing a map based campaign so we'll see how it adapts.

We're having a few trial games this weekend before the official launch so will get to see my troll in action Very Happy
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