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 Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.

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Athanatosz
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PostSubject: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 12:14

Hi.

I'm started to play Mordheim+Bordertown burning with my buddies like 2 weeks ago. In our little group we got 4 warbands (Dwarf treasure hunters, Ork's as Da mob rulez!, my Marauders of Chaos and a fresh dark elves warband). Also there are some other dudes whishing to play (one with witch hunters).

I also have a question. Lots of topics and post telling that the the Elves are unfairly op. Well in our group they not played any game so far. So my question is:

Is this true or only if they maxed out in a certain way? is there any advice how to beat them?

Funny thing is that we played 4 games so far and I was the lucky bastard to win all of them. (1 shared barfight with the orks in the BtB 07. scenario, Last orders!, 2 Horrors of the underground btb 02. scenario against the dwarfs˙once got the egg) and one Mordheim original treasure hunt which was a close call against the orks).

Also bonus question: Is any other warband are generally considered over power? What's the opinion in marauders?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 12:32

I guess my question would be do you mean all elves are OP or just Dark Elves or?

The Dark Elves have some annoying skills and the Sea Dragon Cloak is poorly written, but in general they start T3, have limits on who can gain St skills and are stuck with expensive equipment and warriors, which tend to balance things. They are no way as broken as the Shadow Warrior band.

Overpowered, broken warbands are Carnival of Chaos, Shadow Warriors, any Wood Elf warband you can name and Blood Dragons (which SAY they are OP in the list.)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 12:43

Well I mean dark elves which are presented in my current group. I'm a cautious player so i searced the net for infos before we started playing. Several site (including this) mentioned op warbands and the dark elves was one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 13:15

OK. My experience with the warband is that it is a strong warband, but to take advantage of the strengths (and overpoweredness) one needs to be a fairly good player. [Abusive players will just dominate with the warband from the get go, thus should be avoided.] Average players tend to struggle.

We see the Lustrian Dark Elves in our group quite often, often not in Lustria. They seem like a 50/50 kind of broken warband, maybe 60/40. (Meaning a player who is new to the warband will win with it consistently about 50% of the time.) Shadow warriors on the other hand are like a 90/10 sort. (Meaning the new kid can just make up a warband and win 90% of the time.)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 15:44

+1 to the Shadow Elves in the Town Cryer are OP.

I have never played against them, but I have heard Druchii Dark Elves are fairly well balanced. I *have* played against the Town Cryer Dark Elves, but only a few times and they were definitely an 'A' list warband, but I wouldn't call them OP. That being said we have a house-rule for elves that modifies their racial maximum toughness to 3 (from 4). There are possibly some other house-rules we have that I have forgotten are house-rules, but if we do I forget what they are Razz.

Skaven, Orcs, and Dwarfs probably top my list of 'A' list warbands, but I don't think any of the official warbands are broken once all the players get their heads around their strengths and weaknesses.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 17:44

I'd say Dark Elves are as good as the best official warbands, but not broken by any means, like the Shadow Warriors are. They don't look like it at first sight, but it's a close combat oriented band, since only the leader has shooting skills and their ranged equipment is too expensive for henchmen, two of their heroes aren't allowed to use ranged at all and guns are forbidden to everyone. Unlike other CC oriented bands, all their warriors start with F3 T3 (I think the cold one beasthounds aren't good at all being stupid animals with just one attack that won't get advances for 30gc... better get a shadow for 35gc), and they don't have access to a big guy, neither hired sword or henchmen.

Said that, they're elves, meaning they have good magic and high L ,WS and BS. Their extra movement and insane initiative will make them attack first against almost everyone, and climbing jumping and diving is a piece of cake to them... an advanced player has many ways to exploit them. But similar thing happens with Skaven, and it's not only official, also one of the starter set warbands. If you find Dark Elves too good, try to eliminate their special equipment and skills. Without dark elf blades, no possibility of strength skills and no easy access to poison, they won't have a way to compensate an important weakness.

Too bad they have that OP reputation, I have some awesome oldhammer dark elves a friend gave my many years ago, and no one wants to play against them Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 18:58

Not really want to restrict or eliminate anything at all. After all the warband does not played a singe match and I already won 4. I just want to prepare for them and to know better this warband. They seemed a little bit cheap to me. As I had seen they are cheaper in heroes and henchman level and got 5 more points in attributes. Got ideal equipment's for BS and WS to. (compared to the marauders list. Which is maybe misleading to compare)
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 15:37

Quote :
(compared to the marauders list. Which is maybe misleading to compare)

Maybe a bit. Looks like a case of what we call 'the grass is always greener in the neighbor's yard". Letting the guy play a couple of games before you worry about his warband might be the way to go.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 16:59

If you mean Norse when talking about Marauders, they are also great, as good as the best CC band (Beastmen?) if not better... and remember Dark Elves is CC oriented despite being elves. You start with four warriors with S4, two frenzied guys and full 6 heroes, one of them being a tank. Elves start with S3 T3, and low numbers... you should dominate the first games. Fear their diving charges and mid-campaign skill combos, tho.

If you mean the experimental Marauders of Chaos warband... they look even better, OP I'd say.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sun 21 Feb 2016 - 20:43

I'm pretty sure that we are talking about the Marauders of Chaos. Aside from being older, the Norse and Dark Elves are unofficial warbands, too.

The Marauders have three S4 heroes. The Leader is T4. (Strength and Toughness are two attributes that the game designers costed higher than the others, hence Marauder characters cost more.) Depending on the tribe chosen they can gain other advantages, as well as a Mark of Chaos for the Seer. The Condemned is random, but with luck can be quite a beast.

Marauders don't show up often in my group since we don't play Border Town campaigns, but two players have tried them. Both started late and dropped out early in the campaigns they were in, so I don't have any idea how the warband should perform. Losing games is potentially disastrous for the warband because the leader could turn into a spawn, just as winning is potentially advantageous because the leader could gain a Mark.

We have lots of Dark Elf players, most all of them play the Lustrian list. Only one played a different list, but I don't think it was the Druchi.net list.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 1:06

ah ok. They look balanced with other Border Town warbands, but much better than vanilla Mordheim. It's just an opinion, unlike Dark Elves and Norse I didn't try them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 9:10

Well I  like the marauders. Generated them a little back story and other stuffs. I had won 4 games with them against dwarf treasure-hunters and orcs. The match against the orcs was a close call. The chieftain got his mark after the 3. game with a lucky 6+6 roll. They are played as kurgans. (From the Thamak tribe to be more specific) They got a Hunnic theme. All names are hunnic. (Attila the chieftain, the two champion Dengizich and Ruga (bro's to the end) for example).


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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Mon 22 Feb 2016 - 20:48

I have run a few shadow elf bands and dark elf bands through the years. The shadow elves are certainly more powerful than the official bands (these days I only run them in collaborative games), but I have never felt the dark elves to be broken. In fact, when I have run them or against them they usually get their skinny bottoms kicked pretty regularly.

-Michael
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Tue 23 Feb 2016 - 2:15

Thanks guy's clarifying forum rumour's with fact's.
I think I will use my hounds as a meat-shield and to interrupt their charge and shower them with arrows before the heroes charge in. As i see they kan hit first whit good chances so maybe it worth to invest in some armour.(shields & helmets) We use the shields give +1 armour save when used with one-handed weapon on foot rule.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sun 24 Jul 2016 - 16:54

Hi Guys!

Well after like a couple of games I give rest of my marauders warband. They had grown to strong. Maybe they were lucky, favored by the Dark Gods or fundamentally stronger at start then other warbands. Eventually may be I'm a keen and good player. (Nope jocolor)

Anyway I realized that despite the underdog bonus other warbands can not really catch up if one won too much. Wierd that Rating is not count spent gold on equipment which seems to me a little unfair. Anyone got any suggestion to this or experienced similar situation?

I decided that my Khronate Bloodborns  take a vacation and I focus on my undead warband or start a new one.( Beastman, Norse Explorers or the Merchant Caravan)


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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Sun 24 Jul 2016 - 21:44

Warband rating is a very quick and dirty method of comparing warbands, but it more or less does the job. It is pretty vulnerable to gaming it though, so it is not a very good method of determining the winner of a campaign.

That being said, I have seen one club use adding +2 per weapon equipped, +1 per piece of equipment equipped (mutations/marks etc. counted as a weapon), and +1 per armor save (light armor, shields, bucklers, toughened leathers = +1, heavy and mithril +2, gromril +3, etc.).

No idea how well it worked long term. They may have only been experimenting with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Mon 25 Jul 2016 - 1:02

I'm thinking that summing up the prizes weapons, Armour, and equipment used in battle. If the difference is greater than 50 gc there could be some sort of gain for the underdog. in the Exploration +1/-1 to one dice roll, 1 re-roll, or simply +1 wyrdstone/treasure after every 50 gc difference.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Mon 25 Jul 2016 - 20:26

I think perhaps 100 rather than 50. 50 is only one suit of heavy armor or 5 spears and I don't think that should be worth an underdog bonus.

Of curiosity, what would you recommend the value for the artifacts? Make up a price or just leave it as 0 to increase their value?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark elves are OP?& Opinions on Marauders.   Tue 26 Jul 2016 - 0:41

100 gc is sounds good for lesser artifacts and 0 for campaign artifacts (like the chaos artifacts from Bordertown Burning) as they are goals to achive..
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