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Mouliro1
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PostSubject: Dwarf Advice   Mon 8 Feb 2016 - 15:31

Hey all,

About to enter a Mordheim campaign and wanted to ask opinions on the Dwarf Treasure Hunters warband.

First a little background, The campaign has some house ruling going on. First, all armor has had its cost reduced by 20%. Secondly, shields will function how they did in 8th Edition Warhammer (+1 to armor save and a 6+ward save). Those are the 2 big rules changes i remember.

Any Salty Dwarf veterans out there able to give me any hints to using the warband?

Currently im looking at this as a possible beginning warband.

Noble- Hammer, Shield, Gromil Armor, Dagger
Engineer-hammer, Pistol
Slayer-Axe, Dagger
Slayer-Mace, dagger

3xBeardlings-Spear Dagger

That leaves me with 68 points left over...Do i buy an extra suit of armor to stash for a lads got talent? Do i Drop a beardling and weasel in some Xbow thunderers?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Mon 8 Feb 2016 - 20:15

I am starting a Dwarf Treasure Hunters band in my up coming campaign so I am with you in needing some advice. All I can say is that because we play 1/2 off armor I am giving my Engineer and Nobel Gromril armor. I am also going black powder weapon with a brace of pistols for the Nobel and a Handgun for the Engineer for some excitement. We are using the Miracle Workers for the first time and I will round out my heroes with the Trickster-priest of Ranald because he sounds like lots of flavor/fun. Now I want a Halfling Cook and it will feel like an adventuring party! Good luck!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Tue 9 Feb 2016 - 9:48

I would drop the spears, as they're pretty much useless on dwarves. The way the rule works is that since both spears and charging allow your to strike first, the two rules cancel each other out, and you go in order of initiative. Great if you're an elf or a rat, not so great if you're a dwarf with initiative 2. Also, you won't get that extra attack due to its unwieldy rule. As much as I hate to give cookie cutter advice, they'd be better off with a pair of hammers, or even a hammer and an axe.

I think general list building wise, it'd be good to invest in some ranged attacks. You can never count on out maneuvering your opponent, or getting the charge due to your slow movement, so you have to instead hope that you can whittle down the amount of incoming charges you'll have to weather. I would keep warband members in groups of two (just for movement, not actually grouping them) with one slightly in front of the other, so that you can counter charge next turn if the front one gets charged, or intercept should the back one get charged.

Good luck treasure hunting!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Tue 9 Feb 2016 - 10:07

Sorry for the double post, thought of a couple more things:

Because you only start with 4 heroes, you're already at a disadvantage vs most other warbands, income wise. Because of this, you want to both maximize your odds of a TLGT roll, and minimize the odds of losing any of your existing heroes. Unfortunately, these are kind of at cross purposes, as it advocates using your henchmen as canon-fodder, while needing that cannon fodder to advance to being a hero.

In short, the two things you'll want to do are this: First, never group your henchmen into one group, run them individually. This way you're rolling for experience for each individual warrior, instead of a single roll for each group of them, giving you better odds of ending up with a promoted hero. Second, take advantage of the voluntary rout. You have no cheap troops available to you, and if a hero gets taken OOA you'll be at an even biggest disadvantage for income, so as soon as the rules allow for it, if the odds are against you, rout voluntarily. Mordheim is a marathon, not a sprint. Better to run and fight again, then sacrifice your expensive troops for winning a single game.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Tue 9 Feb 2016 - 17:39

I haven't been playing for a long time, but I used to be a dwarf player for many years and had to come out with some tricks to minimize their flaws, I hope I can give you some ideas for your band.

Even with the changes you made to armor it still doesn't look very cost effective. I would take it out, give the leader a brace of pistols and keep him in second line out of CC, to charge with him only under your own terms. Pistols work great with the noble thanks to his BS4 and the improved range, and he will become a killing machine with eagle eyes and pistolier.
Same thing for the engineer, or give him a crossbow instead, he would be safer but also a T4 warrior who stops to be relevant as soon as the CC starts. Drop the lances as they are usless with current rules as Whiskeytango told you.
If you make that kind of changes, you will be able to hire one or two more beardlings or a clansmen, and get a total of 9 warriors. You could even start with 11 if you want to go full beardling and barebones equipment.

I think the range improved pistols have great sinergy with dwarf's slow movement and add conditions to enemy's charges while still useful in CC. I'm not a fan of crossbows in the first matches, as they are expensive and not so useful with BS3. I used to start with this list, having a first line of beardlings, and second line with slayers and clansmen to counter charge, and noble and engineer just behind out of CC, but ready to charge if necessary:

Noble: Dagger, hammer. Brace of pistols.
Engineer: Dagger. Brace of pistols.
Slayer1: Dagger, hammer.
Slayer2: Dagger, hammer.
Clansman1: Dagger, hammer. Pistol.
Clansman2: 2 Daggers. Pistol.
Beardling1: 2 Daggers.
Beardling2: 2 Daggers.
Beardling3: 2 Daggers.

Each henchman as a different group to increase TLGT chances. Suggested changes would be dropping the engineers pistols and one of the bearlings, and get a crosbow and hire a tilean if you want to be more shooty. But I think the dig-a-hole-and-shoot usual dwarf strategy doesn't work as good in Mordheim if you are playing with enough scenery, and I find this kind of list more effective and fun to play.

I hope it helps.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 6:35

Hey bitxo, did you guys use the Blackpowdered Mishap table in your campaign? I plan on going full BP Weapons so I'm wondering if I should expect them to blow up a lot.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 10:04

Hi! do you mean the misfire chart? We did use it a couple of times and wouldn't use it again because it made guns suck. Not so much because the probability of guns exploding in your hands, rarely happened, but because how often they didn't fire or jam, +- 14%, making that model loose a turn.
In my opinion any gun looses to a crossbow with that rule... and handguns are much worse than crossbows regardless you apply the misfire chart or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 10:40

I would go Crossbows if I wasn't trying to theme this Warband because I agree with you. I think I'll start out with the mishaps and either lobby to change our use of them or change the theme. I want Pistolier and a brace (or 2) of Dueling Pistols (double-barreled?!) on my Noble to be sure!

How'd you go with your Slayers mid campaign? I'm giving mine Halberds to test out so I am not -1 WS for dual-wielding.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 15:36

For mid campaign I'd make at least one of the slayers if not both should go for dual dwarf axes with "master of blades", even if you get dual wielding penalty, they will have WS4 or more at that point anyways. You will be able to parry up to two attacks, not only beating but matching the number your rival got, and re-roll failed attempts. Combine it with the mandatory "step aside" and you will have a great tank able to hold the most dangerous models your rival has. If you use one or two heroes with this combination depends on your strategy. If one of the slayers gets +1A advance or more, you may give him the halberd, get "strike to injure" and make him counter charge.

Next skill to get for the slayers in my book would be "true grit" or "thick skull".
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 17:52

Ranged TLGT heroes tend to be more survivable than Melee heroes and only need two skill lists instead of three. Clansmen make better snipers than Thunderers so it would be better to include only Clansmen until you have your two TLGT heroes.

In my group we have a house-rule that Handguns and Hunting Rifles roll two injury dice, pick the highest. This makes them more popular than previously and has increased over-all fun.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 10 Feb 2016 - 20:10

Lord 0 wrote:
Clansmen make better snipers than Thunderers so it would be better to include only Clansmen until you have your two TLGT heroes.

You've got me at a loss here. Why would Clansmen be better snipers? They'd have to waste a skill on weapons expert before they could even use a crossbow or handgun. Am i missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Thu 11 Feb 2016 - 9:57

Using thunderers with just hammers in CC instead of clansmen seems interesting if you want to get TLGT and make him a sniper, as they are virtually the same henchmen with different equipment list. Good idea if you go shooty.

The thing about dwarfs and skills is they don't have access to speed (at least the way my group played), so you won't really benefit from using a promoted henchman as sniper as other bands do. Most people I know use the engineer, as it's good idea to keep him safe out of CC. I prefer to give him pistols, make him relevant and see what advances he gets. I usually buy him a crossbow and make him a sniper when he gets skills, but if he gets something like +1T and +1A after the first two advances, I'd keep him as pistolier and hire a tilean.

Something I would like to try is hiring a halfing, give him "sprint" and/or "leap" advances instead of shooting, and use him as some kind of dog, to give the band some speed to achive scenario objectives. He won't last more than 4-5 games I guess, but he will deliver plenty of good for the cost, halfings allways do.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Thu 11 Feb 2016 - 16:50

whiskeytango wrote:
You've got me at a loss here. Why would Clansmen be better snipers? They'd have to waste a skill on weapons expert before they could even use a crossbow or handgun. Am i missing something?

Yep, what you are missing is that they are going to need Weapons Expert *anyway* if you are going to make best use of *both* your ranged weapon slots.

For example: the crossbow is a very good bread-and-butter weapon once you have Nimble and Quickshot, but what do you pair that with? The Hunting Rifle for when you want to take out the enemy leader or caster and they are hiding behind meatshields? The Elf Bow with Hunting Arrows for taking out their T3 meat-shields? Dual Crossbow Pistols for when they are charged by I99 rats and elves in melee and need to take them down? In my group we have a house-rule that allows slings to use Holy Water and Fire Bombs so sometimes people will even take a sling as an auxillary weapon. We also have a house rule that allows the engineer's ability to work on throwing knives (hatchets) and throwing axes so sometimes people will get Gromril throwing knives or Gromril throwing axes for their second weapon.

So if you have to take Weapons Expert *anyway* you might as well put it on the person that has the best melee weapon list. Conversely, since melee heroes often get a lot of use out of Weapons Training you might as well give it to a Thunderer to take advantage of their better ranged list.

Even if you can't take Speed skills you can still take Shooting and something like Strength or Dwarf skills to make very durable Snipers.

Just by-the-by, in my group we use the interpretation that TLGT heroes can pick from their special skill list when they get a skill even after choosing two different skill lists. We have played that way since Mordheim first came out and have never found it unbalancing. And that is from a group of ruthless powergamers. Also, I play Marienburgers so I don't even get to *use* that special rule and I *still* haven't found it overpowering. We also allow TLGT heroes to pick any two basic skill tables, not just those that are available to others in their warband. I don't get to abuse *that* rule either and still haven't found it overpowered either.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 17 Feb 2016 - 13:02

I wrote a little guide on the stunties; you're welcome to check it out right here!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 17 Feb 2016 - 16:47

WT is right about spears, of course, and about running the Henchmen University, where to spare no expense to get to 6 heroes quickly. (I was lucky enough in my last campaign to pick up two thunderers what got talent at 2 or 5 xp. You don't miss out more than 1 hero advancement that way, and both those fellows quickly turned into the most valuable stunties in my band. But I went through a lot of henchdwarves to get there. After XP 5 they got sent up to be meat shields.)

Slap and Bitox have it right about pistols. Also, I totally used a halfling as a sprinter for my guys, he worked out really well. He actually leveled up his T as well, so he was doing his best to fit in.

I had a slayer with the two-dwarf axes and the parry special skill. I never regretted that: lots of ways to get around armor were used against my dwarfs, but the slayer never minded, he just kept parrying and staying alive.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Fri 19 Feb 2016 - 21:40

Here is an introduction to the warband I wrote a few years back:

Musings on Short Bearded Warbands



Our History with Dwarf Warbands (You Can Skip This Bit)

Our group's experience with dwarves has been interesting.

Stampper started a dwarf band in a campaign. After about four games, he chose to drop them and start another warband, he was so frustrated with them.

Later, he decided to try them again. He gave up on them again after a few games.

In the very next campaign, Jim gave them a try. He hated them.

I forget all of their complaints, but the main one was that the 3-inch movement meant that they performed poorly in the run-and-grab-stuff scenarios, which we rolled a lot (in most of these games there were four warbands playing).

Next I gave them a try - they performed poorly for me. In part this underperformance was my fault - I kept forgetting that they only went out of action on a 6, not 5 or 6. I am fairly sure that cost me a dwarf or two.

Anyway, some time later I tried a second band, since in general I like dwarves and I have a couple of tons of great old Citadel models. This band used a modified hero mix – we allowed only one slayer, but created a dwarf “champion” hero who replaced the second slayer. This second dwarf warband did very well. In fact, over time they were one the strongest warbands I have ever had.

Consequently, later when a different group started a campaign I tried dwarves again, going back to the official version with two slayers and no champion. They did well. Not brilliant, but pretty consistently solid.

About a year ago I tried another band, which ran as recently as the Christmas holidays in 2009. They are coming along very nicely indeed.

In my experience seeing dwarves played and playing them myself is that they are a fairly tricky warband to run, and are often going to be slooow out of the gate, but over time if you are patient they will more than likely come through for you.

On the whole, I thing GW was right to rate them as compatible with the official warbands, where so many other additional bands did not become "official".


Their weaknesses:
Slow movement. Nothing you can do about it really.

Low initiative. Go with the flow and give two-handed weapons to anyone who can pack one - if you're always gonna go last in a melee, go last with gusto! Used to be you could give them spears so they could belly-stick all those speedy show-offs as they came in on the charge, but alas no more with the officially revised rules for spears. Note that buying two-handed weapons for everyone is a bit pricey.

Only four starting heroes: It gets better. Shard-wise they make out fine, but they get fewer cool multiple rolls early on.

Two of the four heroes don't benefit from many of the dwarf strengths: specifically, the two slayers cannot wear any armor and cannot pack any of the extra-long range missile weapons the engineer provides. This weakness never goes away. However, it effectively diminishes over time since once you have two promoted henchmen-heroes, they can carry missile weapons and wear armor so the weird slayers are only 1/3 of your hero compliment, not 1/2.

Expensive models: You receive excellent value for your gold – dwarves have great stats and special racial abilities - but your starting warband will be smaller than average (no pun intended).



Their strengths.
They can wear heavy armor, pack shields, and still move 3. They become tanks. It's pretty cool. But all that heavy armor is expensive, so it takes time for this advantage to truly manifest itself.

Toughness 4 + the “Hard to Kill” rule (OOA only on a 6) = stubby immortals. Together, these rules make them some of the most durable warriors in the game. They may not earn as much experience early on as other warbands (because of their speed), but they also lose very few guys they have to replace, so it adds up. To repeat – you are far less likely to have to replace dead heroes in a campaign, especially if you take the Dwarf Racial skill Extra Tough, which lets you reroll a result on the Serious Injury table.

They always find an extra shard. So, even when they have only four heroes they do fine for money, and with five and especially with six heroes, they are going to be rolling in gold. Note also the four starting heroes can all take the Resource Hunter special skill, which gives them the Elf Ranger ability of adding +/-1 to their die roll on the Exploration chart. Over time, Dwarf warbands tend to become seriously rich.

They have some useful special skills. True for the general dwarf skills and the slayer skills. I have already mentioned Extra Tough and Resource Hunter, but there are several other really good skills. For example, the Slayer skill Berserker combined with the Slayer’s WS of 4 means there are a lot of targets he will hit on a roll of 2+.

Good leadership. When the captain goes Out of Action, nobody really notices... Even the little beardlings have a leadership of 8, the same as most human captains.

Long-range missile weapons. Gotta love the engineer. 36-inch range crossbows and 9-inch range pistols is a Good Thing. Dueling Pistols (one of the best weapons in the game) have their range increased to 13 inches.


The Weaknesses vs. Strengths Balance:

In my experience, Dwarven strengths outweigh their weaknesses, and the longer the dwarf warband runs, the more their strengths manifest themselves. And that is the important point to keep in mind: they are slow (hah!) to start in a campaign because they only have four starting heroes and underperform in snatch-and-run campaigns, but they become exceedingly powerful (and rich!) over time.


Building a Dwarf Warband.

Heroes.

You have to take all four, obviously (you always take the maximum number of starting heroes for any warband. Always).

For the captain, sometimes I buy the cheap Gromril armor, sometimes not. Starting out, it is only 25 gc more than heavy armor, for the +1 point of armor save. However, the other benefit of gromril armor (can be used with a shield without slowing a warrior down) is lost on dwarves, who are never slowed by armor. So, a good buy still, but with all dwarf models being so expensive, it might be better to scrape and save on kit to buy more henchmen (and the more henchies you start with, the more chances you have to roll The Lad’s Got Talent).

For the Engineer, I pretty consistently go with a crossbow and a hand weapon (hammer or axe) and have him hang back and snipe (so, no pistol). Now as he develops I usually add pistolier and eagle eyes and gift him with dueling pistols, at which point he will more consistently hunt with the pack.

For the slayers, I usually go with one with a two-handed weapon for the +2 Str and the other the other has a dwarven axe and a mace or hammer (I can never decide which configuration is better, hence one of each; it also makes it easier to remember which slayer is which).

In terms of henchmen, I usually have a mix of clansmen and thunderers. I never take beardlings – the more expensive clansmen and thunderers have +1 WS, +1 BS, and +1Ld compared to the beardlings, which is a steal for 15 gold coins, if you ask me. Going with beardlings might allow you to make your starting warband one or two stunties bigger, but be patient – you are going to max out you numbers soon enough, so start with the better henchmen (who, when promoted, will also make the better heroes).

Stat-wise, thunderers and clansmen are identical – the difference is in the kit they can take. Thunderers cannot take dwarf axes or two-handed weapons (booo!), and clansmen cannot take crossbows (or, for that matter, handguns, but who cares about the handguns?) In my first couple of dwarf warbands I started exclusively with thunderers, but later I realized how effective short pissed-off dwarves swinging two-handed weapons at people’s kneecaps were. Now I generally go with a mix. By the way – if you have a clansman who earns a promotion to hero, consider giving him the shooting skills as one of his two skill groups, because if he takes hunter, he can use any missile weapon and thus becomes extremely versatile; similarly, if you have a thunderer promoted, consider allowing him access to the combat skills so he can take weapons training.

Dwarf Treasure Hunters are a great warband – just be patient.

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Sat 20 Feb 2016 - 8:05

Lots of good advice here. Aipha's guide was my favorite when I played them one campaign ago. I tweaked a few things, but if I ever play DTHs again I'll follow it to the letter.

Dwarves are interesting because you have to rethink success and the general approach to gane play, IMHO. You are never winning most scenarios, you just are too slow and march blocking is horrible. Buuuuut you get the chance to rule the exploration phase, and if you play it right (pendulums, tarots, resource hunter) you end up with so much gold and items that you are often out shining the "winners" anyway. This band is about patience, the long haul over the campaign and shooting first. I play them to survive, not to be little viking heroes. Great warband if you can embrace those ideas early on.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Advice   Wed 9 Mar 2016 - 6:38

Ok this is how you make a nearly unstoppable force. 12 models. All your heroes. Beardlings to fill out. Pick you weapons. Go cheap. Hammers and daggers. Slayers get axes, engineers and Lord swords maybe dwarf axes. If you can swing an individual clan dwarf or thunderer you do.

Your force is big. It fights reasonably well. Your T4 makes it tough for most enemies to take you out. Beardlings fan out in front and receive all missile fire and charges. Your heroes counter-charge after you get hit.

In 1 or 2 games you start making roles for the individual groups you broke your beardlings up into. Any beardlings die, you replace with clan dwarfs or thunderers as you like.

The idea is to get those extra heroes fast and make lots of money. You can then easily afford all the snappy gear you want in short order. You can continue to fill out your warband with hired swords. I suggest the Merchant and the Scout. I also like the Marksman.

Just remember to swamp opponents on your counter-charge and get those slayers some exp. Get them two handers and an attack or monster slayer. Then big guys die, little turds break on your T4 line and even strong warbands can't handle your high leadership.
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