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 Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen

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Major Sharpe
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PostSubject: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 17:35

So after years of staunch insistence on playing the forces of order I'm suddenly very taken with the idea of a Beastmen warband. There are some aspects of the Beastmen list that I find confusing however, and I'm hoping the local Mordheim experts here can help me out.

1) Question one: Centigor equipment

Per the rulebook Centigors are allowed the following choices of equipment.

Empire in Flames - pg.72 wrote:
Weapons/Armour: Centigors may be armed
with weapons and armour chosen from Gor
Equipment list.

Unfortunately there is no 'Gor' equipment list. There is the 'Beastman Equipment List' and the 'Ungor Equipment List' but no 'Gor Equipment List'. To make things more confusing Beastmen Gors are allowed to choose from the 'Beastman Equipment List'. So what can I give my Centigor?

Either A) this is a typo and the author meant to type 'Ungor' (which I find slightly more likely)
or B) this is a weird way of saying that Centigors can choose from the same equipment list as Gors who can choose from the Beastman Equipment List.

Has this ever been clarified or FAQ'd? Am I perhaps using an older edition of Empire in Flames? Thoughts?

2) Am I correct in assuming that the 'Gor' profile listed on page 82 of the Mordheim rulebook is the maximum profile for my beastmen?

My confusion comes from the fact that all the beastmans in Empire in Flames are M5, but the max Beastmen profile in the vanilla rulebook is M4. While presumably the Empire in Flames list takes precedence, is there another updated Beastmen Gor profile I'm missing somewhere?

3) Can my M5 beastmen benefit from the 'Cloven Hooves' mutation?

Quick summary: Beastmen have a special skill table. One of those skills is 'Mutant'.

Empire in Flames - pg.74 wrote:
Mutant
The Beastman may buy one mutation.
See Mutants section on special rules.

There is a mutation called 'Cloven Hooves'

Quote :
cloven hoofs
The warrior gains +1
Movement.

If I give a Bestigor (who is naturally M5) the 'Cloven Hooves' mutation, can he be M6?
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 18:42

The Empire in Flames Beastman list is supposedly the 'corrected' version of the Beastman list that was published in a garbled form earlier in TC. Sadly the Empire in Flames editor worked for GW as well.

1) Use the Beastman equipment list. No Gor equipment list exists and the Centigor is not an Ungor.

2) The Empire in Flames Beastman list was written after the release of the Beastman Army book for Warhammer Fantasy Battle 6th edition, sometime in the early years of this century. The Mordheim rulebook was written in 1999, during Warhammer Fantasy Battle 5th edition. The lame GW excuse was that there were several types of Gor and the rulebook stats apply to the one found in Morheim that joins Possessed warbands.

2005 Rules Review Q&A wrote:
Q: The Beastmen in the Possessed warband and the Beastmen warband have different
profiles. Is this a mistake?
A: No. You’ll note that the warriors are actually called something different too:
‘Beastmen’ in the Possessed warband and ‘Ungors’, ‘Gors’ and ‘Bestigors’ in the
Beastmen warband. These are creatures of Chaos, after all, and there are many types of
them in the Old World. Those that have been tainted by the proximity of so much
warpstone in the city are a bit harder to kill, but that’s only to be expected.

The maximum characteristics for the Empire in Flames Beastman warband are found in the 2005 Rules Review and are actually 'official' and the last official word on the warband.

3) Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 18:57

1/ This is a typo from the old Beastman list that appeared in a town cryer. In those days there was a Gor list and an Ungor list and the Hero and Henchmen gors could both pick from it. Just use the beastman list.

2/ There was an errata, but I forget where it is. The profile you need is:
M Ws Bs S T W I A Ld
5 7 6 4 5 5 6 4 9

/3 Yes. I guess they are just hooves powered by *CHAOS* or something Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 19:37

Hey thanks for the replies. Since you never know when you're going to run afoul of well-intentioned rules lawyer can you talk me through the justification for why a chaos mutation allows a model to exceed its max stats?

Also Lord 0 that profile doesn't include anything for wounds. Can you give me a name of the source so I can try finding it?
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 20:04

Quote :
Hey thanks for the replies. Since you never know when you're going to run afoul of well-intentioned rules lawyer can you talk me through the justification for why a chaos mutation allows a model to exceed its max stats?

Um.  A copy of the Rulebook, a copy of your warband's rules.  

Quote :
Also Lord 0 that profile doesn't include anything for wounds. Can you give me a name of the source so I can try finding it?
I tried.  The 2005 rules review document [page 11]. Really. Not kidding.

Other than that the above profile includes 5 wounds, which is in error.  It should be 4 wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Mon 16 Nov 2015 - 21:47

Thanks for the reference, guess I didn't see it the first time.

But in regards to how a chaos mutation allows a model to exceed it's max stats, I think it's sill a fair question to be posting in the Rules and Gameplay section of the forum. It's not that I don't believe you that it's in the rules somewhere, I'm just not able to find it.

Mordheim Rulebook - pg.82 wrote:
characteristic increase

Characteristics for certain warriors may not be
increased beyond the maximum limits shown on the
following profiles. If a characteristic is at its
maximum, take the other option or roll again if you
can only increase one characteristic. If both are
already at their racial maximum, you may increase any
other (that is not already at its racial maximum) by +1
instead. Note that this is the only way to gain the
maximum Movement for some races. Remember that
Henchmen can only add +1 to any characteristic.

While I get that this is in reference to advance rolls it would also seem to apply to other sources of stat boosts. Something like Mighty Blow gives you a strength bonus in combat, allowing a human to fight at S5, but a Bestigor with cloven hooves is raising their base M to 6. To me these are two different things. A S4 human with 'Mighty Blow' that had to take a strength test would still test at S4, because the actual statline hasn't change.

The beastmen warband list says nothing about exceeding maximum stats, only that Beastmen heroes can choose a mutation as a skill. The mutations table also makes no comment as to whether a mutation can be used to exceed a racial max.
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Fri 20 Nov 2015 - 19:30

+1 to above. Skills let you go above your racial maximum, whereas your racial maximum applies to stat increases. Your M value cannot go up above a racial maximum, but you can certainly make movements further than that according to the base rules (for example, when you run or charge, you move much further).
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Fri 20 Nov 2015 - 20:29

I guess the discussion turns on this:

Quote :
While I get that this is in reference to advance rolls it would also seem to apply to other sources of stat boosts.

The quoted rule would 'seem to apply', yet there is no specific sentence that says that this rule does in fact apply to ALL possible means of increasing stats, including Chaos mutations. If the rules for mutations must include a sentence indicating that they do indeed allow a stat to be raised above racial maximums, why isn't the rule that implies this need held to the same specific standard?

Quote :
The beastmen warband list says nothing about exceeding maximum stats, only that Beastmen heroes can choose a mutation as a skill. The mutations table also makes no comment as to whether a mutation can be used to exceed a racial max.

I understand that we are only discussing Beastmen, but have you found any reference to exceeding maximum stats in the Possessed warband? They have access to mutations as well, including Cloven Hooves. If you are not using the optional rules for the Shadow Lord, then a Possessed Mutant could only take the mutation Cloven Hooves at warband creation, which would be in violation of the implied rule about not increasing a stat above racial maximum. However neither the rules for mutants or Cloven Hooves prohibit the mutant from taking this mutation...

Which leads me back to my answer above, to justify the mutation increasing a stat above racial maximum you would need a copy of the rules for the Beastman warband, which states that heroes may take the skill mutation and a copy of the Mordheim rulebook which has the rules for said mutations.

Speaking of mutations where are the rules for the Beastman warband's mutations found? The skill says "see Mutant's section on special rules". I have always assumed this refers to the Possessed warband's mutants.
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PostSubject: Re: Empire in Flames - Questions about Beastmen   Fri 20 Nov 2015 - 21:06

That's actually interesting.

Characteristics are pretty straightforward: your stat line has a maximum (with injuries reducing your maximum even should you get subsequent advances), but it's implied that SKILLS don't count against it (i.e. a hero at his racial maximum Strength can take Strike Mighty Blow to "count as" a higher strength in close combat, but not for wrestling open a box).

I always assumed Mutations were similar, although I could see a reasoned argument for +1 Movement being the equivalent of a +1 Movement gained via leveling up.

I'm inclined to vote for the former, if only to not punish somebody for spending the extra money on mutating up a Possessed, which while nasty are far from the most powerful warband out there, but I'm curious if anybody feels strongly in the opposite manner.
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