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Nordheim
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PostSubject: armour skill?   Mon 13 Jul 2015 - 2:41

Hey guys.

I'm been doing some research about which warband to create first, and so I've decided upon Skaven.
It's just one thing that confused me, Skaven are among the warbands that can't have any heavy armor.
It seems silly that if they find a heavy armour they can't use it, But from what I've read it seems you can only use items from your specific warband roster.
Is there any way around this?
Thinking about either Weapons training or even Warrior Wizard.

I havn't been able to find the answer anywhere, so I thought perhaps some of you thrustworthy veterans would know.
Appreciate the help.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Mon 13 Jul 2015 - 3:47

Welcome to the forum.

You are correct in your research. Warriors cannot use armour that is not listed in their equipment list and there is no skill to allow them to use it. Therefore the only thing that Skaven can do with Heavy Armour (as well as Gromril Armourand Ithilmar Armour) is to sell it.

Note that due to this restriction on armour usage some groups have a house rule that Ithilmar Armour should be treated as Light Armour rather than Heavy Armour. You would need to discuss this with your group to see if they will allow it.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Mon 13 Jul 2015 - 4:52

Thank you for the welcome!

Ahh, that's sad news, I was hoping I was wrong.(It happens from time to time)
I guess It's reasonable that a weak rat can't wear those heavy shiny things.
You made a good point about Ithilmar Armour though.

Thank you for the fast reply and your wisdom, much obliged.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Mon 13 Jul 2015 - 21:55

I think the main reason the Skaven warband doesn't get access to heavy armour is that they are the *Eshin* Skaven i.e. the *ninja* rats. The idea of 'ninja' and 'shiny clinky noise-machine' don't really go together. That, and it is a balance thing - the lack of armour in the end-game is a significant levelling factor in an otherwise strong warband.

Remember, too, that Skaven Adepts, Mages, and Black Skaven can't even get shields* so only the Nightrunners and Henchman can get even a 5+ armour save.

For what it is worth, in my group we call ithilmar a kind of light armour and allow Adepts, Mages, and Black Skaven to wield sheilds in their tails with the appropriate skill and it hasn't affected balance at all. That being said, in my group we also use shields and bucklers grant an extra +1 vs melee so axes and other armour-defeating strategies are more common.

*Unless they get Tail-Fighting, depending on your interpretation.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Mon 13 Jul 2015 - 22:00

Just by-the-by, if you want some rats wearing more armour, consider the Clan Skyre warband from Relics of the Crusade. Their heroes get access to heavy armour, they get 15 instead of 20 max, and they get only 5 starting heroes. Oh, and *only* the henchmen may be equipped with slings.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Tue 21 Jul 2015 - 11:10

Yeah you're right, doesn't really add up fluff-wise, I'll model them like Skryre though.
Looked at the Clan Skryre, and it's a nice idea, Though I've already have so many ideas to make the eshin-weapons more skryre like.
We'll see how the end-result will look like, but thanks for the information!
I'll just have to survive without heavy armour!


Ps.

Is the +1 to AS for shield the only regulation your gaming group does?
-is it enough?
Was thinking about starting armour pen at strenght 5, seems like it works for Long Island Wargaming.

Thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Tue 21 Jul 2015 - 11:29

And thanks alot for mentioning the whole clan skryre warband, made me find towncryer... 24, 25?
Anyhow, found the skryre ratogre, loving it, I want one in my warband, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Tue 21 Jul 2015 - 19:12

Nordheim wrote:
Is the +1 to AS for shield the only regulation your gaming group does?
-is it enough?
Not by itself, no.

We introduced the +1AS rule to help reduce dual-wield spam (particularly mace and dagger) and it seems to have worked. There are a few others we have to make things more fun. The major ones are:

+1AS in melee for shields and bucklers
-1 to offhand attacks unless you have Dual Wielding*.
Toughened Leathers are a form of Light Armour available to everyone that has access to Light Armour.

Wizards and Priests get to pick their first spell and then roll randomly for the rest they learn.

If they are the appropriate type, TLGT Heroes get access to two skill tables + their racial skill table e.g. all dwarfs get access to dwarf skills, all skaven get access to Skaven skills, etc. but an Ostlander Ogre hero wouldn't because he is an ogre, not an Ostlander.

TLGT heroes may pick any two basic skill tables, not just ones that some other heroes can take.

Those last two are less House Rules and arguably RAW, but definitely best to sort out the interpretation you will be using before the campaign starts.

*Dual Wielding is a Combat skill that eliminates the -1 for the offhand attack and allows you to allocate attacks with weapons you are armed with e.g. if you have an axe and a mace and are against two enemies you can allocate 2 axe attacks at the guy with the most armor and 2 with a mace against the other guy. Normally all attacks are made with the onhand weapon and 1 attack is made with the offhand.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Tue 21 Jul 2015 - 20:44

Thanks Alot Lord O!
I like all of these tweaks, The armor rule seems logical, to balance the whole thing out abit, I agree, It seems like more fun with a variety of equips.
I was abit concerned about the magic rule, but the more I think about it, it makes the whole thing more balanced.
Instead of one person gaining the "best spell", it seems to level out the playingfield abit.
And Two basic-skill tables + racial skill table sounds like more fun, Making the TLGT so much better/fun!
I like it! But, Mercenaries and the undead comes to mind, that doesn't have their own skill-table, It's still balanced?

Thank you so much for you for your input!
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Tue 21 Jul 2015 - 20:59

Quote :
If they are the appropriate type, TLGT Heroes get access to two skill tables + their racial skill table e.g. all dwarfs get access to dwarf skills, all skaven get access to Skaven skills, etc. but an Ostlander Ogre hero wouldn't because he is an ogre, not an Ostlander.

TLGT heroes may pick any two basic skill tables, not just ones that some other heroes can take.

Those last two are less House Rules and arguably RAW, but definitely best to sort out the interpretation you will be using before the campaign starts.

I'm always confused when you make this assertion. Pray, what rules are you reading when you find this RAW interpretation? My rule book doesn't seem to suggest anything of the sort. Indeed it seems to say clearly that LGT heroes may only choose from skills available to their warband's other heroes. Question

Mordheim Rulebook 2005 p.82 wrote:
You may choose two skill lists available to Heroes in your warband.

Mordheim Rulebook 2005 p. 82 wrote:
new skills

There are several types of skill and each has a separate list. You may not choose the same skill twice for the same warrior. The skills a Hero may have are restricted by the warband he belongs to and what type of Hero he is.

Mordheim Rulebook 2005 p. 83 wrote:
The Skill lists are used to pick skills earned as advances. Your warrior is restricted to specific Skill lists depending upon his warband type and what kind of warrior he is. Each warband entry includes a list of skills available to the Heroes of that particular warband.

What am I missing here?


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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Wed 22 Jul 2015 - 16:26

You are missing what *isn't* there. If the rule is intended that a TLGT hero can only take skills available to the starting heroes in the warband then those sentences should read "You may choose two skill lists available to other/starting Heroes in your warband." or something of that nature.

Really, RAW you cannot choose *any* skills for a TLGT hero because there is no entry for those heroes on the warband's skill table e.g. a Marienburger Swordsman cannot choose, say, shooting and speed skills because there is no entry in the skill lists for a Swordsman. That, of course, is obviously ridiculous because they talk about choosing two skill types. That being said, you *could* argue that RAI the tables are accurate and that that the talk about choosing skills was left in from earlier playtesting by mistake. That is a very un-fun interpretation though and I know of only one person that ever argued that, and even they were only taking that position to be a dick.

As an example of how my group sees the RAI take, say The Possessed. The Shooting skills are on their warband list, but no *starting* heroes are allowed to take them. They are still available to the *warband* though. If they didn't intend TLGT heroes to be allowed shooting skills then shooting skills should not be on the list at all, ticked or otherwise.

What they were trying to avoid is, say, a Possessed Brethren taking e.g. Skaven and Strength skills or a Marienburger Swordsman taking Orc and Dwarf skills. It is a bit kludgy and could use a bit of rewriting, but that is not exactly new for GW products.

What the Possessed table *should* look like if they intended for no TLGT hero to have access to shooting skills is this:



What it should look like if they *did* intend Possessed to have access to shooting skills, if they choose to:


Of course, the one in the book doesn't include TLGT heroes at all so use your own interpretation of what you are supposed to do.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Wed 22 Jul 2015 - 22:43

Well, I asked. I kinda figured it was something like this, but I had to ask.

I didn't know I was making such an improbable leap in logic when I thought that that rule was clear... Very Happy



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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Thu 23 Jul 2015 - 5:39

Lord 0 wrote:
I know of only one person that ever argued that, and even they were only taking that position to be a dick.

Reminds me of this Evil or Very Mad
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Thu 23 Jul 2015 - 13:52

Quote :
That being said, you *could* argue that RAI the tables are accurate and that that the talk about choosing skills was left in from earlier playtesting by mistake. That is a very un-fun interpretation though and I know of only one person that ever argued that, and even they were only taking that position to be a dick.

I am baffled as to why one would have to argue that the talk about choosing a skill "was left in from earlier playtesting by mistake."

In our group one of the lads has two code phrases for this discussion is over. One is "the [Mordheim] rules are vague." and the other is "you are just being a dick." He's not as articulate as Lord 0, but I hear these phrases a lot, so I don't let it bother me.

I did make a noob debating mistake and include the work "other" when referring to the LGT rule, so I'm behind on points. Always quote accurately.

I think this is a fine house rule. Like many things I think are fine, I don't think it will fly in my group, nor do I think it has any valid claim to being a RAW interpretation. So that's my issue.

Quote :
If the rule is intended that a TLGT hero can only take skills available to the starting heroes in the warband then those sentences should read "You may choose two skill lists available to other/starting Heroes in your warband." or something of that nature.

I introduced the word "other", but I'm not convinced that it would be necessary to the understanding of the LGT rules for choosing skills.

Mordheim Rulebook, 2005 p. 82 wrote:
10-12 The ladís got talent. One model in the group becomes a Hero. If you already have the maximum number of Heroes, roll again. The new Hero remains the same Henchman type (eg, a Ghoul stays as a Ghoul) and starts with the same experience the Henchman had, with all his characteristic increases intact. You may choose two skill lists available to Heroes in your warband. These are the skill types your new Hero can choose from when he gains new skills.

The premise as I understand it is that the LGT Hero is a hero, and that particular hero HAS no skill table so he CAN"T choose any skills. This assertion is made despite the fact that the rules do not say that the new hero may only choose skill types available to that type of new hero, but that is precisely what is allegedly to be implied. (Although once again, I missed the step where this was proved.)

What the rules do say is quoted right up there. The rules use the word "Heroes". This is the plural form of the word "Hero". So we are looking for who or what those heroes might be. Apparently we are not supposed to look to see what warriors are considered "Heroes" in our warband, because, well I'm not sure why we can't, maybe just because it would be inconvenient if we did.

But if we COULD look at our warband list, then right away we should find a list of warriors that are Heroes. And near that we should find a list of skill types available to THOSE heroes. Now this is usually in the form of a table, which is a problem, allegedly, because it is vague.

Now vague is really hard to disprove, because well, its vague. Vague is one of those things that is kinda in the eye of the beholder as it were. I may think its clear, but I can't see through your eyes, so what's clear to me might not be clear to you or vice versa.

But you can see what GW printed in any warband roster. I am looking for the vagueness, but when you can see its hard to conjure fog. All I can say is that if we accept that the warriors listed are "Heroes" and that the checks indicate that those "Heroes" may choose skills from those skill types, then introducing vagueness becomes more a matter of obstruction or invention rather than pointing out an obvious fact.

For example the Rulebook states on page 83: "The Skill lists are used to pick skills earned as advances. Your warrior is restricted to specific Skill lists depending upon his warband type and what kind of warrior he is. Each warband entry includes a list of skills available to the Heroes of that particular warband."

Now sometimes the charge of vagueness is leveled because the rules use similar terms to describe the same thing or worse one term to describe different things. I don't see that with the rules about skills so much. I do see words like "restricted" though, which makes a RAW interpretation that isn't restrictive harder to accept.

Lord 0's groups' interpretation seems more like a House Rule then RAW.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Thu 23 Jul 2015 - 15:06

It may be that I've had a bomb or two, but this is my take:

The rules say that you may pick two of the skill tables already available to the Heroes in your warband. Meaning that if your Mercenary Captain dies, you won't have access to a specific kind of skill table and will never have.

Special skills are exclusive to some warbands.
Some warbands have good special skills, others have mediocore, while the standard skill tables are well, the same, throughout the warbands.

With the rules being that 'one can pick two tables + their special skill table', I would NEVER play a warband without a 'special' skill table. I believe few in my group would do so either.
I do not think that this is the intention with the game.

This means that more will have fun, if we allow the same rules for all warbands, meaning that all TLGT Heroes may pick two (and only two) tables.

Usually the only time the Special table is chosen is with Dwarves. Otherwise Strength/Speed or Shooting/Speed is by far the most popular.

So, as with Von Kurst, I think it's a fine house rule, but not something I would recommend for every group. Especially not ours. But if it works in that group, it's just fine with me Smile
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Fri 24 Jul 2015 - 16:41

Von Kurst wrote:
...but when you can see its hard to conjure fog.
To me it is just the opposite. All I can see is fog where others are seeing a shape in the mist and calling it solid. They are slapping their hand against it so I am sure they are sincere, but myself and others can put our hands right through it. *Shrug*.
Von Kurst wrote:
I'm not convinced that [understanding the omission of the word 'other' would be necessary to the understanding of the LGT rules for choosing skills.
of *course* it is necessary, that is the whole point! If you can't see that, then no wonder you can slap the fog and call it solid Razz.

That one word 'Heroes'. If they mean 'Heroes' in the sense of 'Heroes of the warband' then the table makes sense and e.g. the Shooting skill list is *available* to the heroes of the Possessed warband, it is just that none of the starting heroes has pre-selected it. If, on the other hand they mean 'Starting Heroes' or something similar then the table makes sense and they can only choose a list if one of the starting heroes has a tick in it.

To me, there are two competing points of view. One group believes the RAI is that TLGT heroes may only choose from skill lists that other heroes in their warband may take. The other point of view is the RAI is that TLGT heroes may only choose from skill lists available to their warband.

If you claim the first RAI is true then you have to explain why they didn't include TLGT heroes on the skill table. If you claim the second then you have to explain why they omitted the word 'other' or 'starting' or any number of other ways they could have written it and why the unnecessary skill lists are still on the warbands skill list tables.

Either way both camps have some 'splaining to do, but since it hinges on the use of a single word they are both as RAW as each other. Personally, I think the first one needs less explaining and leads to a more fun game. YMMV.
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PostSubject: Re: armour skill?   Fri 24 Jul 2015 - 17:11

Aipha wrote:
With the rules being that 'one can pick two tables + their special skill table', I would NEVER play a warband without a 'special' skill table. I believe few in my group would do so either.
I thought so too, but we have been using the '2+special' interpretation for many years now and Marienburg, Middenheimer, Undead, and Witch-hunter warbands are just as popular now as they were then. Possessed kinda count, but they get mutations, which are almost like a special skill list. Granted, everyone new to the group goes 'OMG †OP!' and then starts a warband with a special skill table, but they generally go back to their favourites once they get it out of their system.

I find that it reduces cookie-cuttering and therefore increases fun for everyone. I mean, take melee heroes, for example; pretty much everyone takes Mighty Blow and Resilient for their first skills, but for their third do they take Sprint? Step Aside? Lightning Reflexes? 'Eadbasher? Master of Blades? etc.
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