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macca175



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PostSubject: shooting at hidden figures    Sun 3 May 2015 - 9:07

Hi, I have recently started playing Mordheim and all bar one player are new to the game.
One point of rule that seems to be a bone of contention is shooting at hidden figures from elevated positions. Our 1 experienced player claims that if his archer on higher ground has line of site to the hidden figure, it is no longer hidden and is free to shoot at by his other archers.
I would have thought that the figure is still hidden until another figure can "spot it" then making it unhidden.
Would appreciate a ruling on this as at the moment the game is turning into a wild west shooting gallery!
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: shooting at hidden figures    Sun 3 May 2015 - 10:03

Welcome to the forum!

Mordheim Rule Book p. 11 wrote:
hiding

The Hiding rule represents warriors concealing themselves in a way that our unmoving and dramatically posed models cannot. A hiding warrior keeps as still as possible, just peeking out of cover.

A model can hide if he ends his move behind a low wall, a column or in a similar position where he could reasonably conceal himself. The player must declare that the warrior is hiding and place a Hidden counter beside the model for it to count as being hidden.

A model that runs, flees, is stunned or charges cannot hide that turn. His sudden burst of speed does not give him time to hide.

A model may stay hidden over several turns, so long as he stays behind a wall or similar feature. He may even move around so long as he stays hidden while doing so. If an enemy moves so that he can see the hidden warrior, the model is no longer hidden and the counter is removed. When hidden, a warrior cannot be seen, shot at or charged.

While hiding, a model cannot shoot or cast spells without giving away its position. If a hidden model shoots, or moves so that he can be seen, he is no longer hidden and can be shot at as normal.

A model may not hide if he is too close to an enemy model – he will be seen or heard no matter how well concealed. Enemy warriors will always see, hear or otherwise detect hidden foes within their Initiative value in inches. So a warrior whose Initiative value is 3 will automatically spot all hidden enemies within 3".

We have this come up every now and then as a player will assume that because a model is elevated it can see over any cover a warrior may hide behind.  Sometimes this is true, but it is not automatic with being higher than your target.

Part of the issue is the maddening vagueness of the rule. The whole if 'an enemy moves so that he can see the hidden warrior thing'.  We play that the hidden warrior may no longer claim to be hidden if an enemy can move so that there is no obstruction to its line of sight (cover) between it and the hidden warrior. Otherwise the rule is impossible to use, since the only way to 'hide' would be to be totally obscured from view, which is not what the rule says.
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PostSubject: Re: shooting at hidden figures    Sun 3 May 2015 - 11:31

Thanks that's sounds better, at the moment the other player insists that as long as he can see your figure behind cover your hidden status is blown! For me it makes sense that as long as the figure is behind some cover then it should remain hidden as in the spirit of the rule.
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PostSubject: Re: shooting at hidden figures    Sun 3 May 2015 - 22:56

Von Kurst hit the nail on the head.

If the model "spotting" would receive -1 to hit when attempting to shoot at the hidden warrior, then that warrior is in cover and can stay hidden successfully. Even if the "spotting" model is at an elevated position.

Mordheim rulebook pg 11 wrote:
...A hiding warrior keeps as still as possible, just peeking out of cover....

...A model can hide if he ends his move behind a low wall, a column or in a similar position where he could reasonably conceal himself...

...A model may stay hidden over several turns, so long as he stays behind a wall or similar feature...

The rulebook might not have the most optimal wording sometimes but these key sentences are there and definitely highlight the rules. The first sentence mentions cover which is defined in the rulebook as:

Rulebook pg. 13 & 14 wrote:
...If any portion of the target is hidden by a piece of scenery or another model, the shooting model will suffer a penalty as explained below....

Sometimes it will be obvious whether a target can be seen; at other times it will be more difficult, as buildings and other scenery are in the way. If the shooter can see only part of the target’s body, the target is in cover and the shooter suffers a -1 penalty on his To Hit roll.

Basically, if the model is in cover (-1 to hit) from the model on the 2nd floor then he can hide from them (unless they are within their Initiative value in inches of course).

Unfortunately, some people can interpret the rules differently because the Rulebook contradicts itself too often... The following rule is poorly worded

Rulebook pg. 11 wrote:
If an enemy moves so that he can see the hidden warrior, the model is no longer hidden and the counter is removed.


In order to be more clear it should read something like "If an enemy moves so that he has an unobstructed (i.e., coverless) view of the hidden warrior, the model is no longer hidden". Which is basically when they mean when they say "so that he can see the hidden warrior". Because a warrior needs to be hidden behind cover. But he can't hide if there is no cover between him and the enemy!

Heck they just needed to add one word to improve it
Quote :
If an enemy moves so that he can fully see the hidden warrior...

So you are indeed correct good sir in
macca175 wrote:
that as long as the figure is behind some cover then it should remain hidden as in the spirit of the rule.
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PostSubject: Re: shooting at hidden figures    Mon 4 May 2015 - 15:50

Thanks Denzak, now all I have to do is get my group to see the light!
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