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 System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.

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Yodhrin
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PostSubject: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Tue 17 Mar 2015 - 5:52

I'm trying to build terrain for Mordheim as much as possible in a way that allows it to be used for games set elsewhere in the Empire, eg Marienburg, which has led to me making plans for several structures which would fit into the "not directly hit by a big stinkin' chunk of wyrdstone" parts of the city, that are decrepit-looking but fundamentally sound and enclosed. Since actually modelling them in such a way that they could be disassembled during play to access additional floors(itself a time consuming process fraught with disaster for clumsy people like myself) would be a HUEG amount of extra work, I'd rather deal with the issue through rules, in a way that's nice and simple and doesn't hold up play. I'd appreciate views on the basic idea - is it fair, can it be streamlined further etc etc:

*Any model can enter any enclosed structure by moving into base contact with a doorway or other point of entry(eg a large hole in the wall), unless both players agree that a particular building is locked or otherwise inaccessible beforehand. A Henchman group may enter together if they are all within their base Movement stat of the entry point when one of their members moves into base contact with it. Models with the Large or Large Target designations may not enter enclosed buildings at all unless both players agree beforehand that a particular structure can accommodate them.

*Upon entering the building, remove the model/s from the tabletop and place a marker/token next to the structure. On subsequent turns, you may use your movement to go up one floor each time, stack an additional marker/token atop the first each time you do this. You can move down one floor in the same way if you are above the ground level(or if there is a basement/cellar), subtracting one marker/token from the stack when you do so. Henchmen groups that enter together must also move through the building together.

*Models inside an enclosed structure may shoot out of any windows or similarly-sized openings in the walls of the floor they currently occupy providing they have not entered the building or changed floors that turn, it is assumed they have used their Movement to place themselves at the chosen aperture, but they do not count as having moved. Henchmen groups that entered together can choose whether to fire from a single or multiple points.

*If you move onto a floor already occupied by enemy models, the moving model/s must take an Initiative test - if it is passed, they count as charging, if it is failed, the enemy counts as charging. The combat is then fought as normal. If models must flee from combat inside a structure they will attempt to move towards the nearest exit. Roll the normal number of dice, if there is an exit on the present floor place the model/s at the exterior of the exit point and then move them away from it in the appropriate direction by the number rolled - if there is no exist on the current floor the fleeing models will move one floor towards the one with the nearest exit for every four inches or fraction thereof you rolled, and place them at the exterior of the exit if that takes you to a floor with the nearest exit(eg you roll 2D6 and get 7, the nearest exit is two floors down, you place the model/s outside the building at the exit).

*If the floor presently being occupied has a doorway or similarly sized opening, the model/s may choose to exit the building through it during their Movement phase. Place the model/s at the exterior of the door/opening, they can immediately be moved away from the door/opening up to their regular Movement characteristic, but may *not* Run. Henchmen groups that entered a structure together must exit it together as well.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Tue 17 Mar 2015 - 10:32

I use the same type of table setup. I have some buildings that are sealed up and/or for display purposes as well, along with lots of ruins. I donít have special rules for these types of buildings. For those inaccessible buildings, we just assume the building is either boarded or obviously to unstable to enter. The buildings, on the table are more for obstruction then playability. If you move a model into a building, itís more to take cover or obstruct the other playerís view from being shot at. When looking at the Mordheim map, there are other parts of the city that are still intact. Perhaps those folks, when leaving the city, boarded up their houses and business in the hopes to return one day.
If you really want to use buildings other than ruins, you could always break up and paint craft sticks and board up the doors and windows. Then you can temporarily stick them to your buildings using tack putty or clear tape. That way you wouldnít need special rules for inaccessible structures.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Tue 17 Mar 2015 - 10:49

The problem with this is going to be LOS.
A normal 28mm scale window you could possibly get two models shooting from, but a target might be offset and only visible by one shooter.
So if a henchman group of four archers enters a building, are you saying all four have the same LOS out of it if they are on that floor?
That could make non enterable buildings way more advantageous than the ruins on the table.
I suppose as long as all players are playing the same rules it wont matter, but we have found positioning within buildings to be very important.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Tue 17 Mar 2015 - 14:59

There are rules for sealed buildings in Empire in Flames also if that helps.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Tue 17 Mar 2015 - 16:58

I don't see anything amiss with your draft rules, after a quickish read.

If you are dealing with a relatively small number of buildings, it might be worth making in-scale maps of the various floors (including esp. windows and other openings) to make placement of models more clear.

-Michael
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 19:40

RationalLemming wrote:
There are rules for sealed buildings in Empire in Flames also if that helps.

Another set of GW rules that scream 'don't use us!'

One of the things that drew me to Mordheim was the adaptability of the rules to different settings. Then the Blazing Saddles and the occupied building rules were published.

I swear the guys who wrote those rules were thinking 'how can I make the thing I'm writing rules for impossible to actually use in a game. Sorry RL, the rules for occupied buildings are awful to play with.

Anyway. I prefer building models that one can actually move around in, despite the fiddliness of removing levels,etc. Still these rules show promise.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 19:42

Never looked at those building rules myself, but I did think the Blazing Saddle rules were not very playable. Well, maybe playable, but who would want to?
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Thu 19 Mar 2015 - 21:40

I am probably being too harsh, but we just ended an Empire In Flames campaign tonight and some scars are still kind of raw.

Mainly the buildings rules make entering a building a pain (and you suffer D3-1 S3 hits while you are inside, so the pain can become literal.) While you are suffering those hits, you must move through difficult terrain (so being outside would be faster).
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Fri 20 Mar 2015 - 1:53

Heh. I agree the rules are not that good. We've had any desire to play them!
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Odin Morgrimmsson
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Fri 20 Mar 2015 - 5:38

Another problem is that when you have your four henchman firing out of that single window, they cannot be the target of return fire, since no-one would be able to draw line of sight to them.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Fri 20 Mar 2015 - 8:53

OK, perhaps a couple of amendments then - no more than two henchmen can fire from a single point, rather than all in a group, and if you choose to fire out of a window any opponent that can draw line of sight to that window can fire back at such models following the normal rules for shooting at enemies in cover.

I get that there's some abstraction going on, but I'd like to keep things as simple as possible so we don't get bogged down playing a game within a game.
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PostSubject: Re: System for using "sealed" building models - opinions.   Fri 20 Mar 2015 - 15:21

This may be fine but it is still an advantage to warrior that must move and shoot. Normally these warriors need to be positioned and are vulnerable to be shot before they get to shoot the following turn. However you are suggesting that they can only be shot AFTER they choose to shoot.

You can still try it as it may still be good enough. I like Shadowphx's suggestion though to simply make those buildings inaccessible.
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