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 Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?

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Guderian



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PostSubject: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 1:46

Please don't laugh too much, but I have what is probably a very elementary rules query:

I know that if you knock down an opponent in H2H then another of your party members who is in base contact with the knocked down opponent can make an attack and if he successfully hits and wounds then the opponent is OOA.

I also know that if you have stunned your opponent then an attack by another member of your party later in the turn will automatically hit and if he successfully roles to wound then the opponent will be OOA.

However, in the shooting chapter of the main rule book I see no mention of dispatching knocked down or stunned opponents via shooting.  That is to say that there are rules regarding knocking down and/or stunning them by shooting,  but NO MENTION OF SHOOTING THE FALLEN OPPONENT IN SUBSEQUENT TURNS EITHER BY DICE ROLL OR AUTOMATICALLY IN ORDER TO MAKE HIM OOA.

Could anyone shed some light on this issue please.

Thank you in advance

Guderian
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RationalLemming
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 2:36

Welcome!

It is not a silly question. It is a good question and has been asked a lot. A lot of people (myself included for many years) applied the H2H rules to shooting and were wrong. Your warriors are able to shoot enemies that are knocked down or stunned. However, after successfully hitting the enemy warrior it is necessary to roll to wound and apply the result. Therefore it is possible to hit a stunned warrior and roll a 3-4 on the injury roll and therefore have no effect on the warrior.

The rules are written this way partly to prevent shooting from becoming too powerful. Also, games of Mordheim are generally more fun if there is H2H combat rather than both teams shooting at each other from buildings on opposite sides of the street/tabletop so I think that this was also done to encourage H2H combat.
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Devilish
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 2:47

Hi,

I've done same as RationalLemming. Also applying -1 to hit a prone target. Can't remember if it's a houserule, a rule taken from somewhere else or official. Too long since I've played a game.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 13:55

I agree with RationalLemming here. You will have to roll to hit and wound as normal, else shooting would simply be much too powerful. However, there's something incorrect with your interpretation of the knocked down/stunned rules:

Guderian wrote:
I know that if you knock down an opponent in H2H then another of your party members who is in base contact with the knocked down opponent can make an attack and if he successfully hits and wounds then the opponent is OOA.

I also know that if you have stunned your opponent then an attack by another member of your party later in the turn will automatically hit and if he successfully roles to wound then the opponent will be OOA.

The rule you have for stunned warriors, is actually the rule for knocked down models, i.e. if one of your warriors have knocked down an enemy warrior, you simply just have to wound him. He still has an armour save though.

The rules for stunned are even easier: If anyone is able to attack the stunned warrior (i.e. a warrior who has not attacked yet, but is in base contact with the stunned warrior), he is automatically out of action:

Mordheim Rulebook p. 22 wrote:
A stunned warrior is at the mercy of his enemies. A stunned model is automatically taken out of action if an enemy can attack him in hand-to-hand combat.
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 13:58

Devilish wrote:
Hi,

I've done same as RationalLemming. Also applying -1 to hit a prone target. Can't remember if it's a houserule, a rule taken from somewhere else or official. Too long since I've played a game.

You mean +1 to hit, right? Else it would become harder to hit him! Razz while I understand this rule, I would suggest it only to apply towards knocked down models. The reason is that technically all shooting is simultaneous, meaning that you send 5 - 6 arrows towards a warrior at the same time, and not one at a time, like you probably do with the dice rolls. Applying it to knocked down models only would ensure that it was only warriors stunned in the previous round, that would be easier to hit. And it's a house rule; an interesting one though!
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 14:43

I'd also apply a -1 to hit, since a model lying flat on the ground, with debris all around and such, shouldn't be this easy to hit.
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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Fri 30 Jan 2015 - 16:53

With these arguments in mind I would not give it any modifier. Lower profile makes for a smaller target perhaps but being knocked down or stunned makes for a mostly immobile target that if able to move at all would be slow and predictable.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Sat 31 Jan 2015 - 0:36

The difference is that -1 for cover is in the rules, +1 for slow and predictable is not Very Happy
It's very reasonable, but you'd still need to reason with your group Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Sat 31 Jan 2015 - 1:34

If debris is big enough to already be cover it will be cover even if you are knocked down near it. If its referring to the rubble you scatter with your boot as you shuffle along the alley then it is not cover. No modifier. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Sat 31 Jan 2015 - 4:12

About the "shooting at knocked down warriors in cover": We already have a rule concerning that, where you cannot shoot a model that you are unable to see. Sometimes a model will become stunned behind some high fence/wall, then he recovers to knocked, but you cannot see him = you cannot shoot at him at all. Of course it depends on the cover, but I believe the rules pretty much... cover... that.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Sat 31 Jan 2015 - 4:22

Which is why I think noone participating in this conversation was even considering shooting at a knocked down model that cannot be seen at all. Suspect Right? cheers
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Guderian



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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Sat 31 Jan 2015 - 9:20

Thank you all for the back and forth rules discussion.  A special thank you to Rational Lemming and Devilish for your prompt and rational responses on shooting cheers and to Alpha for clearing up my misunderstanding regarding H2H Very Happy ............ although I wish that my interpretation was correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you shoot knocked down or stunned opponent?   Today at 4:02

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