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Daniel36
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PostSubject: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 21 Dec 2014 - 2:42

Hey guys,

We are currently wrapping up our first club campaign, and we have enjoyed it greatly. We are using the large Updated Mordheim Rulebook (assembled by Paul H) and while I like the fact that it has almost every warband, item, hired sword and everything in it, it shares the same problems with every Games Workshop publication ever released, and on top of that has some serious lay-out issues.

So, with my love for clean lay-outs, consistent wording and redundancy, I decided to write up a new style of warband lists, where everything that is needed to build up a warband is right there in the document.

I am working my way through the official ones first.

It includes the following:
- Stats for all the Heroes and Henchmen
- Warband specific rules, included in the stats if necessary
- Some rules I always forget myself
- All the rules for the weapons and armour, in order of appearance in the equipment list, with all the fluff taken out
- Spell descriptions if the warband has a spell caster, as well as warband specific skill lists.
- Some minor clean up of the wording


You can download the files here:
Reikland Mercenaries (upd. 21-10-15)
Marienburg Mercenaries (upd. 21-10-15)
Middenheim Mercenaries (upd. 21-10-15)
Witch Hunters (upd. 21-10-15)
Sisters of Sigmar (upd. 29-12-14)
The Possessed (upd. 29-12-14)
Von Carstein Undead (upd. 21-10-15)

(I will update the list as I create more files. It seems you can't download by right clicking, but it takes you to the Onedrive file, and you can download it from there...)

Let me know if there is anything I've missed. Is there anything you would like to see in such a document? I would love to hear your thoughts so I can make it better and then make them for other warbands as well. Also, if you spot any typos or mistakes, let me know.

Note that I am using the Updated Rulebook by Templar Knight as my base. As such, there may be some inconsistenies with what is regarded to be the best version. If you notice such a difference, please let me know. I want these files to be the fairest, bestest versions possible.

Last updated 21-10-15 - Wow! Almost a full year since the last update. Time flies by. Fixed a very small mistake in wording in the human merc warbands as well as the Witch Hunters. Also, the Von Carstein Undead has now been released, which is the basic Undead warband slightly renamed so that there is a clear distinction with the other Undead Houses.


Last edited by Daniel36 on Wed 21 Oct 2015 - 5:05; edited 11 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 21 Dec 2014 - 11:55

I am glad you started with files that have few (no?) changes from the 'real' rules in them [except Alignment].  That rulebook is one of my current bugbears and I am constantly warning local players away from it.  I do wish the authors of that compilation would have seen fit to NAME their creation themselves rather than make the rest of us wonder if "deds", "Complete' or "Ultimate" [see thread below on this page] refers to the same thing.

There is no experience given for the Wolf Priest because the original author did not include any.  I am surprised that Templar Knight did not make up a number since he happily made a bunch of other stuff up for other warbands.  Since the Wolf Priest is fan made in the first place YOU could choose an experience level yourself. (I would recommend equal to a Sigmarite Warrior Priest from the Witch Hunters.)
Also the Complete and Updated Rulebook leaves out the Wolf Cloak which was added to the Middenheim equipment list by the article Opulent Goods.  (See 2002 Annual)
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 21 Dec 2014 - 14:39

Thanks for your comment, Von Kurst. Much appreciated.

Well, these are actually straight up from the "Complete" rulebook, so in that sense I am not doing it right, but I like the book. However, I want to have the fairest possible warband lists, so if there is anything in the "Complete" rulebook that is plain wrong, I want to know. I can tell you there is one change, the Long Rifle is 175 gc instead of 200 gc in this version. Should I change it back to 200?

I would like these files to be the "definitive" versions of the warbands. At the same time, I want to have as many warbands as possible so un-official, fan-made ones are welcome all the same. As long as they are fair and generally accepted by the majority of players.

I was very doubtful to add in allignment, but it works nicely for Hired Swords, since in the original book it clearly states who can hire them, but that doesn't take into account the warbands that came after, and the problem is nicely solved this way. I might take it out again though, depending on general consensus.

Finally, the Wolf Priest is from a Town Cryer, so is it really fan-made? I was under the impression it was pretty much "official" if it came from Town Cryer. The Town Cryer version doesn't have experience either, but I was actually also thinking about using the same starting exp as the Warrior Priest. The Wolf Cloak was clearly detailed in the Wolf Priest's description, so...

But, do you like this format? Is it something you would use?
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 21 Dec 2014 - 20:23

Since you are the one compiling the lists the judgement of fairness and balance are really up to you.  Since I don't use the 'Complete' rulebook, a warband list based on its rules are of no use to me.  There may be a reason that the Hochland Rifle costs less in that version of the Mordheim game.

I do like the alignment rules because it makes Hired Swords easier, but since the list of Hired Swords is not complete, it is only of use for those covered by the incomplete 'Complete' rules.  It would be nice if people who wrote new hired swords wrote them with these rules in mind, but alas most newer Hired Swords are written like the originals.

The Town Cryer articles were divided into several categories including 'New Rules', 'Experimental Rules'  and 'Miscellaneous', which included articles on terrain as well as scenarios.  A list of which articles were considered which was published every few issues to help players keep track.  Some articles were revisited and reclassified later by the 2002 Annual and/or the 2005 Rules Review but the Wolf Priest was not one of these.

The Wolf Priest is credited to Enrique Durand, but no biography is included for him.  My assumption that he is a fan is based on the contents page of the TC the article appears in which does not list a Durand among the GW staff credited for the issue and the general sloppiness of the Wolf Priest article. The rules were classified as Experimental and as we both note no value was ever assigned for the starting experience of the Priest.

My point about the Wolf Cloak is that it was included in the article, Opulent Goods, as new official equipment for the Middenheim warband.  Thus a complete warband specific list of Middenheimer equipment ought to include the Wolf Cloak since any hero may purchase one at warband creation or later by trading.  Rules for the Wolf Cloak as GW wrote them (including cost and how to acquire one) can be found in the 2002 Annual.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 0:45

Hi Daniel,

I think that the format of the warband listing is nice and clean. It will be a big job to convert all warbands to this format (even just official warbands). However, I think it would add a very simple method for a player to get all of the core warband rules that they need to start using a warband.

The rules written by Paul H which are called the 'Complete' rules should be avoided as the base for your rules because they are simply the compilation of official rules and house rules created by a single gaming group. The document contains a lot of rules that were never published by GW and which do not exist outside of that. The document also contains some rules that do not appear to have received much playtesting and would seem quite unbalanced. The main issue is that these rules also do not clearly define when they deviate from the official Mordheim rules that most people use so if you are not familiar with the official rules then you may not know when you are using house rules that change official rules instead of official rules. This means that there is a risk that you'll inadvertantly create warband listings that are not useful to most people because they are based on the house rules for one particular gaming group.

I recommend starting with the three PDFs for the living rulebook that were released online for free by GW. GW have removed those PDF files from their website but copies can still be found like in my OneDrive linked in my signature. Have a look in the "Mordheim Official Rules" folder. This contains the full list of rules made official by GW and subsequent rules reviews.

Once you have finished creating warband listings for all of the official warbands then you can start on fanmade warbands. Well in reality you can create the warband listings in whatever order you want! Laughing  However, doing the official warband listings first (like you have done with the mercenary warbands) will be most helpful to others and may mean that you get the most feedback.

I hope that this feedback helps,

RL
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 3:03

I am happy to see such well thought out and clear comments. I love a good discussion.

Von Kurst wrote:
Since you are the one compiling the lists the judgement of fairness and balance are really up to you.  Since I don't use the 'Complete' rulebook, a warband list based on its rules are of no use to me.  There may be a reason that the Hochland Rifle costs less in that version of the Mordheim game.
Well, I want to make a compilation of all the warbands that are considered to be the best versions, and I want to omit ones that are clearly broken or simply don't fit. What I really want is to have my lists be the definitive versions. A pipe dream, perhaps, but it doesn't hurt to try.

You say I have the final say, and fair enough, if I was creating a new house ruled version for use at my own club, I would, but again... my wish is for these documents to become the go-to list for everything we will henceforth call "Definitive"... Or at least "Officially sanctioned by the Boring Mordheim Committee" or somesuch. I would love this to become a community effort to finally clean up everything.

So, if you say that it will be of no use to you, then I want to make it so that it IS of use to you. At worst, I would even be willing to create variant warband lists, so for example a Middenheim warband with the Wolf Priest, and one without... Though in this instance I think it just has to be included... Because it is awesome... but I want to have discussion stay open at all times. I am always willing to change things if the general consensus is that it is wrong.

Quote :
I do like the alignment rules because it makes Hired Swords easier, but since the list of Hired Swords is not complete, it is only of use for those covered by the incomplete 'Complete' rules.  It would be nice if people who wrote new hired swords wrote them with these rules in mind, but alas most newer Hired Swords are written like the originals.
I don't think it's very difficult to add in allignment to ones written without them though... Once I have at least the most popular warbands done, I want to create a master list of Hired Swords as well... I am not using the allignment as part of the campaign alliance rules as written in what I will henceforth call the Templar version (for easier reference), because they are... weird... but for Hired Swords, Encampments and whatnot, it's actually quite a handy thing to have. But again, if it creates more grief than good, I will omit them.

Quote :
The Town Cryer articles were divided into several categories including 'New Rules', 'Experimental Rules'  and 'Miscellaneous', which included articles on terrain as well as scenarios.  A list of which articles were considered which was published every few issues to help players keep track.  Some articles were revisited and reclassified later by the 2002 Annual and/or the 2005 Rules Review but the Wolf Priest was not one of these.
Thanks for the clarification.

Quote :
The Wolf Priest is credited to Enrique Durand, but no biography is included for him.  My assumption that he is a fan is based on the contents page of the TC the article appears in which does not list a Durand among the GW staff credited for the issue and the general sloppiness of the Wolf Priest article. The rules were classified as Experimental and as we both note no value was ever assigned for the starting experience of the Priest.
I didn't notice the sloppiness to be any more than "official" GW rules... that is, I noticed them, and did my best to clarify.

Quote :
My point about the Wolf Cloak is that it was included in the article, Opulent Goods, as new official equipment for the Middenheim warband.  Thus a complete warband specific list of Middenheimer equipment ought to include the Wolf Cloak since any hero may purchase one at warband creation or later by trading.  Rules for the Wolf Cloak as GW wrote them (including cost and how to acquire one) can be found in the 2002 Annual.
Since I have the document on my PC, I will make sure that the Wolf Cloak is added to the Equipment List of the Middenheim warband. But see, this is EXACTLY why I am doing this. There is SO MUCH stuff out there, scattered across a myriad of different documents, that for a starting Mordheim player, it is impossible to start with all the fun options you are officially allowed to start with. Sure, it doesn't make the game less enjoyable for not having the option of a Wolf Cloak included... but I just wish for a definitive list of things, all formatted the same way.

I know my formatting isn't exactly "fluffy", without all the cool pictures and skeletons and cool fonts, but at least it is clear, concise, and hopefully will be a great way of finally clearing up everything for Mordheim. Again, I would love that to become a community effort and be considered the definitive versions of the warbands (even if there are slight variant versions available).

A man can dream... I hope you guys will warm up to the idea.

But thanks for your continuing thoughts. Much appreciated.

RationalLemming wrote:
Hi Daniel,

I think that the format of the warband listing is nice and clean. It will be a big job to convert all warbands to this format (even just official warbands). However, I think it would add a very simple method for a player to get all of the core warband rules that they need to start using a warband.
It is exactly why I am doing it. Everything you need for that specific warband in one handy document.

Quote :
The rules written by Paul H which are called the 'Complete' rules should be avoided as the base for your rules because they are simply the compilation of official rules and house rules created by a single gaming group. The document contains a lot of rules that were never published by GW and which do not exist outside of that. The document also contains some rules that do not appear to have received much playtesting and would seem quite unbalanced. The main issue is that these rules also do not clearly define when they deviate from the official Mordheim rules that most people use so if you are not familiar with the official rules then you may not know when you are using house rules that change official rules instead of official rules. This means that there is a risk that you'll inadvertantly create warband listings that are not useful to most people because they are based on the house rules for one particular gaming group.
Well, so far the four warbands I tackled are actually almost 1 on 1 the same as the official ones, so that is good, and I also think that it is actually a good thing to use it as a base, because apparently a LOT of people think that this Templar version is somehow the definitive version, and this way, we can clean up the mistakes made, one warband at a time. Perhaps this sometimes means reverting back to the "original" warband, but we shall see. It is actually not my intent to use all of the warbands listed in this book, because a couple of them are just weird... I want to start with the official ones, but I want to make sure all the errata, additions and improvements are included.

Quote :
I recommend starting with the three PDFs for the living rulebook that were released online for free by GW. GW have removed those PDF files from their website but copies can still be found like in my OneDrive linked in my signature. Have a look in the "Mordheim Official Rules" folder. This contains the full list of rules made official by GW and subsequent rules reviews.
I have them on my PC. I will make sure I cross reference, just to make sure. Again, the core warbands are actually pretty much the same in this version, except for perhaps an odd change in the pricing of an item, but I can easily change that. Currently working on the Witch Hunters.

Quote :
Once you have finished creating warband listings for all of the official warbands then you can start on fanmade warbands. Well in reality you can create the warband listings in whatever order you want! Laughing  However, doing the official warband listings first (like you have done with the mercenary warbands) will be most helpful to others and may mean that you get the most feedback.
This was in fact my intention. Again, it is not my intent to compile every silly little warband ever created by the fans, but I do want those that are considered fair, awesome and well fitting to the game to be included. First, the official ones, then, the official and experimental Town Cryer ones, then probably the NC, BtB, MiB ones I suppose, then finally the odd ones that are not in these supplements but work well.

Once I have everything finished, it actually makes adding in new fan-made warbands considered to be awesome, much easier...

Quote :
I hope that this feedback helps,

RL
It does indeed. I hope you guys (and others) will continue to supply me with feedback, and it is my dream and wish that one day these documents will become the go-to files for everyone, both new and old.

Now, having said that one last time, I do realize that different groups like different rules, and Mordheim is nothing if not adaptable to your personal preferences, but I think that with clear distinctions between official, semi-official and fan-made, we can actually make it something for everyone.

If you guys have any questions or thoughts, please don't hesitate. I really want to continue on this but it would be useless without your thoughts and enthusiasm.

I just updated the list and added in Witch Hunters. changed the pricing of the Hunting Rifle back to 200. I am thinking of adding in an extra line to the Burn the Witch rule to state that Witch Hunters are not allowed to hire any spell casters. Yay or nay?

Cheers,
Daniel
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 4:22

Daniel36 wrote:
Well, so far the four warbands I tackled are actually almost 1 on 1 the same as the official ones, so that is good, and I also think that it is actually a good thing to use it as a base, because apparently a LOT of people think that this Templar version is somehow the definitive version, and this way, we can clean up the mistakes made, one warband at a time. Perhaps this sometimes means reverting back to the "original" warband, but we shall see.
I don't think that anyone should use the argument that a lot of people think that the Templar version is the definitive version because it is not the definitive version. The official rulebook is the definitive version and public opinion does not change that. Currently the Templar version is being found by a lot of people due to some unfortunate ranking in Google search results. However, using the official rulebook and the Templar compilation may not be a bad idea if the Templar version already has done some work to compile rules from different articles. If anything I believe that is the biggest problem that you are looking to solve - the GW rules are spread out over many different articles. The Wolf Cloak is a perfect example of this. This distribution of 'official' and unofficial but still balanced rules across many different sources does make it hard for new people to find all of the rules.

Daniel36 wrote:
I just updated the list and added in Witch Hunters. changed the pricing of the Hunting Rifle back to 200. I am thinking of adding in an extra line to the Burn the Witch rule to state that Witch Hunters are not allowed to hire any spell casters. Yay or nay?
I would say 'nay' and keep the 'Burn the Witch' special rule as written. That may just be me though as I am largely a 'purist'. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 4:46

Let me rephrase then... because it's not really an addition to the Burn the Witch rule, more like an addition to the entire warband. Shall I then add a rule instead to state that Witch Hunters are not allowed to hire spellcasters? Or should I leave it to the gaming groups to decide? It does seem a very logical inclusion though...

I am having a good time doing this, by the way. The widespread illogical distribution of rules has always bothered me. Even if our group will be the only ones to use this (hope not), I am glad to be doing this.

Oh, the Possessed have joined the fray.

I am probably going to put back in the flavour text for the spells, because they don't take up a lot of space but do explain a little more how the spell works. Yay or nay?

Oh, and how about I add in the racial maximums for the relevant entries? Is that a smart idea?
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 18:22

Daniel36 wrote:
Let me rephrase then... because it's not really an addition to the Burn the Witch rule, more like an addition to the entire warband. Shall I then add a rule instead to state that Witch Hunters are not allowed to hire spellcasters? Or should I leave it to the gaming groups to decide? It does seem a very logical inclusion though...
It is your choice but I would leave house rules out of these warband listings. I thought that warbands could not hire a warrior if there is another warrior in the warband that hates them but I looked last night and could not find the rules to back this up. Therefore maybe it isn't an official rule. Therefore I would not include it. Perhaps though you could add a section at the end of each warband listing called 'suggested house rules' and include that warband rule into that section.

Daniel36 wrote:
I am probably going to put back in the flavour text for the spells, because they don't take up a lot of space but do explain a little more how the spell works. Yay or nay?
I'm probably 50/50 on this and don't really have an opinion. The flavour text does not contribute to how the spell works. Therefore the value from purely a rules perspective seems limited. However, if you can add the flavour text without causing the warband roster to spill onto an extra page then why not include it. Smile

Daniel36 wrote:
Oh, and how about I add in the racial maximums for the relevant entries? Is that a smart idea?
I think that this is a good idea. For humans it is rather mundane but for other warbands like Orcs & Goblins or Beastmen Raiders that have several warrior types then it would be very helpful.

A person in my group did some work to compile all of the rules related to Beastmen Raiders into a single document. This includes the expanded options from BTB and other articles. It got quite long but I think that he and the other Beastman player found it very useful. He didn't apply any standard formatting and we didn't do this for any other warbands. Here is the link if you are interested (I recommend cross referencing it back to the official rules though since I cannot tell you what might have changed by mistake or deliberately):
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?cid=02B7C1D22EA7D959&resid=2B7C1D22EA7D959%21824&app=Word&authkey=%21AByFcnV1qMjZdzg&wdo=1
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 22 Dec 2014 - 21:54

The article Opulent Goods had one item for the Witch Hunter warband, the Hammer of Witches. The item may be purchased by any hero in a Witch Hunter warband.

The article Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe added the Brazier Iron which is available only to Witch Hunters. Both articles may be found in the 2002 Annual.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Tue 23 Dec 2014 - 0:26

So, lots of text already, sorry if I missed something or repeat things, but I really like the idea of having all the rules for a specific warband in one place so I want to support the project a bit. Here are my random thoughts on the topics I picked up:

- if you want to include the house rules your group uses do it by all means, but I expect the interest from other players to be somewhat limited if you do so, especially if you don't point out what's a house rule and what's not. If you want to "reach the biggest possible audience" I'd suggest to stick to the original rules.

- I'd include the racial maximum, the items from the Annual 02 and a list of all the possible Hired Swords, if possible divided into official and fanmade HS.

- While we're at optional items: there is a spell-familiar in the shadow elves-list that can be used by every warband. This is often overlooked. The elves were not fully playtested if I'm not mistaken, but the list WAS supported by GW with official models so the familiar should be in every warband list imo.

- I'd leave out the spell description, as they cause more comfusion than clarify the use from my experience

- I wouldn't add anything to the burn-the-witch-rule of the WH. If it's not in the original list, it's a house rule to me.

- I stumbled over a Templar list on someone's OneDrive years ago but I've never seen it in use. Neither here nor in one of my gaming groups. I cannot imagine the Templar list to be THAT popular if it hasn't surfaced on this forum yet.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Tue 23 Dec 2014 - 2:36

RationalLemming wrote:
It is your choice but I would leave house rules out of these warband listings. I thought that warbands could not hire a warrior if there is another warrior in the warband that hates them but I looked last night and could not find the rules to back this up. Therefore maybe it isn't an official rule. Therefore I would not include it. Perhaps though you could add a section at the end of each warband listing called 'suggested house rules' and include that warband rule into that section.
Come to think of it, I think the allignment rules actually take care of this issue altogether. If I am not mistaken, the original hired swords already made sure that for example the Warlock couldn't be hired by a Witch Hunter warband (could be wrong, but I think not), and this way that whole problem will be solved for evermore. That's why I think it is an invaluable addition to the original rules. I have no idea who came up with it, I have the feeling that it is somewhere in a GW publication, though I can't be certain, but if anything, I think it is just a very smart idea.

Quote :
I think that this is a good idea. For humans it is rather mundane but for other warbands like Orcs & Goblins or Beastmen Raiders that have several warrior types then it would be very helpful.
Yes, the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to include it. I think that I have enough space left on the first page to place it.

Quote :
A person in my group did some work to compile all of the rules related to Beastmen Raiders into a single document.
Thank you so much! Definitely going to use it when I get started on the Beastmen document.

On that note, if anyone wants to be credited in any of the files, let me know. It's really easy for me to update the files, so if credit is due, then credit will be given. Just post here who deserves it where, and I will make sure it gets done. I personally don't care much for credit, but if anyone feels they deserve it, I am not one to argue.

Von Kurst wrote:
The article Opulent Goods had one item for the Witch Hunter warband, the Hammer of Witches.  The item may be purchased by any hero in a Witch Hunter warband.

The article Ye Olde Curiosity Shoppe added the Brazier Iron which is available only to Witch Hunters.  Both articles may be found in the 2002 Annual.
Thanks for that. But the Brazier Iron item is under a list that specifically states that it cannot be bought during the start-up of a warband, so I am going to leave it out. In fact, it only states Witch Hunters use it in the fluff text. It is available for anyone, I suppose. Just noticed in the Annual that it is only available to Witch Hunters. Still, it is not available at start-up.

However, the Hammer of Witches doesn't state whether or not it is available at start-up, so I am going to ask the community here whether they want it in or out. It seems to me like something that they would have during start-up. What say you?

Grimscull wrote:
So, lots of text already, sorry if I missed something or repeat things, but I really like the idea of having all the rules for a specific warband in one place so I want to support the project a bit.
Seeing as I am clearly a fan of redundancy, I do not mind one bit, and I thank you for your interest and support.

Quote :
Here are my random thoughts on the topics I picked up:

- if you want to include the house rules your group uses do it by all means, but I expect the interest from other players to be somewhat limited if you do so, especially if you don't point out what's a house rule and what's not. If you want to "reach the biggest possible audience" I'd suggest to stick to the original rules.
I do not want to include house rules used by my group, but I do want to include house rules that have become so widely used (or just plain valuable) they might as well be considered official. In that sense, this is not a collection of files that are "Core and Official" only. I do think that for now I want it to be "Mordheim" only, so no warbands that clearly only belong to a different setting (like BtB or Lustria), but I personally think that variety is a good thing, and some fan-made content is just plain awesome.

Quote :
- I'd include the racial maximum, the items from the Annual 02 and a list of all the possible Hired Swords, if possible divided into official and fanmade HS.
I do plan to write a master list of Hired Swords as well, and they will be divided into official and fan-made, and they will include allignment, because it is just easy. Even though I personally like to include fan-made content, I do understand that the distinction between official and non-official is much appreciated by some and so I will try my best to cater to them too.

Quote :
- While we're at optional items: there is a spell-familiar in the shadow elves-list that can be used by every warband. This is often overlooked. The elves were not fully playtested if I'm not mistaken, but the list WAS supported by GW with official models so the familiar should be in every warband list imo.
Hmmm... I will see what the rest have to say about it. I think this one is a good fit for the Hired Swords section, even if not technically a Hired Sword.

Quote :
- I'd leave out the spell description, as they cause more comfusion than clarify the use from my experience
That does seem to be the general consensus. Saves me time.

Quote :
- I wouldn't add anything to the burn-the-witch-rule of the WH. If it's not in the original list, it's a house rule to me.
Agreed, and like I said, I think the allignment rules actually takes care of that issue.

Quote :
- I stumbled over a Templar list on someone's OneDrive years ago but I've never seen it in use. Neither here nor in one of my gaming groups. I cannot imagine the Templar list to be THAT popular if it hasn't surfaced on this forum yet.
I mean the "Complete" or "Updated" rulebook, which is actually the first hit you get when you type in "Mordheim rules" on Google. They were compiled by someone who calls himself Templar Knight, which is why for the sake of clarity I call it that in here.

Thanks a lot for all your thoughts, everyone.

EDIT: So, I am adding the racial max characteristics to all the files... And I had them all on the HEROES page, which fit neatly, except for the Middenheim warband... It fits on the HENCHMEN page there, but I want it to be the same across all the files, so now I am all ticked off...

I may throw in an additional page and re-group all the special rules to that page... It will make everything a page longer, but it will also have all the special rules neatly compiled together, which is actually nice too. Since the Sisters of Sigmar have some special skills which I would have had to write an additional page for those anyways... So it's not ALL bad.

Speaking of the Sisters, my goodness what a mess is that entry.
Sister Superior, Sisters Superior, Sister Superiors... MAKE UP YOUR MIND GW!!!
I will personally go for Sisters Superior.

Oh, and there is some general confusion on my part about the Prayers of Sigmar. Some entries seem to imply that they can only be cast on the caster, but they don't outright state it. Now I know that, since it doesn't include a maximum range, one can assume it is cast on the caster himself, but for sake of clarity I am going to slightly change the description.

EDIT: Major update + Sisters of Sigmar(With Bertha included)


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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sat 27 Dec 2014 - 4:56

Tehehhh... Seems I made some big mistakes on the Sisters of Sigmar list. I apparently forgot to change the henchmen and weapons segments... I will get to that when I get back home.

Getting a little ahead of myself (as I am wont to do), I also want to redo the Random Happenings table, because it is one of those files that I would love to have slightly smaller. I am also going to write a custom Random Happenings tables that can be modeled more easily. For example, not everyone has the luck to have a spare Sigmarite Matriarch for that happening, and there are some others that just aren't a lot of fun to play for us. So with that, I am probably going to write some more entries, such as Plaguebearers and Daemonettes, because if we can have Bloodletters, we can have those too. And if we can have Flagellants running rampant, why not some Gors or something.

Maybe we can talk about that custom Happenings table here. Which ones do you normally skip? And is that because you don't have the appropriate model, or because it is a boring happening?
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sat 27 Dec 2014 - 14:38

I only really have experience with the BTB random happenings so I cannot provide any thoughts on the random happenings for Mordheim. On that note though, there are two random happening tables for Mordheim that are official I believe. One is called Raining Fishes and the other is called Random Encounters (I'm working off memory here). Which are you referring to?
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 28 Dec 2014 - 3:38

I'm only aware of one, which is the Random Happenings as found in Annual 2002. I know of another one called Sub-Plots, which might be the one you are referring to. I mean the one that has an Ogre Bodyguard for 11 and Itsy-Bitsy Spider for 66. Loads of fun stuff, but some rather boring or overly complicated, if you ask me.

Anyways, I finalized the Sisters of Sigmar list. Forgot to change the henchmen and weapons. I also made a small adjustment to the Witch Hunters list. I think I am going to add the optional Possessed rules to the Possessed list, but not sure if I can get to that today.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 28 Dec 2014 - 14:46

Ahhh Sub-plots. Yes, that was the one.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Sun 28 Dec 2014 - 21:36

Quote :
I didn't notice the sloppiness to be any more than "official" GW rules... that is, I noticed them, and did my best to clarify.

Well it is hard to contradict that statement about sloppiness.


Quote :
Thanks for that. But the Brazier Iron item is under a list that specifically states that it cannot be bought during the start-up of a warband, so I am going to leave it out. In fact, it only states Witch Hunters use it in the fluff text. It is available for anyone, I suppose. Just noticed in the Annual that it is only available to Witch Hunters. Still, it is not available at start-up.

However, the Hammer of Witches doesn't state whether or not it is available at start-up, so I am going to ask the community here whether they want it in or out. It seems to me like something that they would have during start-up. What say you?

My simple answer is that these were add-ons to the original equipment list. No miscellaneous equipment is available at start up UNLESS it is included in a warband equipment list. All such equipment in the original rules is handled this way.
(Fighting claws, Steel Whips, Weeping Blades, etc).
Since the items are Witch Hunter Only, but do not appear in the original rulebook, they COULD NOT be included in the original warband lists, which is presumably where you come in, because you are redoing the original lists to include such items and rules that were heretofore scattered about.

Quote :
Maybe we can talk about that custom Happenings table here. Which ones do you normally skip? And is that because you don't have the appropriate model, or because it is a boring happening?
We use all of them as written, which is occasionally a pain, because some are written poorly or have rules that do not promote an actual encounter if the encountering player can game the system. (The spider comes to mind...)
I write new Random Happening tables for each of our campaigns except the Mordheim one.
I would recommend opening a new thread in the rules and gameplay discussion since that is where such things are intended to occur...

Discussing Random Encounters in a thread labeled 'New Clean Warband Lists' is not a way to promote discussion of Random Encounters.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 29 Dec 2014 - 3:34

Thanks, von Kurst. Good tip on the discussion, but I have to hold myself in a little... I have enough to do with the warbands. But I will take heed of your suggestion for when the time comes to get to it.

As for the weapons and the list, it doesn't state it in the Opulent Goods article except that the items should be added to the list on page 146, but as for the Olde Curiosity Shoppe, in which the Brazier Iron is featured, it specifically states the following:
"They are not available for starting warbands and can only be used by heroes with the combat skill Weaponb Training."

Seeing as I want to work my way through everything eventually, a master equipment list is on my list as well, so I will definitely add all this to that list, but as for this particular item, I guess I will leave it out of the list, unless I decide to make a section detailing what specific warbands can find during the campaign. Not sure yet whether or not that should be in these lists.

Enough food for thought, if anything. Hopefully I will have some more time later today to get another warband list finished. The vanilla Undead are beckoning me.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Mon 29 Dec 2014 - 18:57

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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Tue 30 Dec 2014 - 6:45

Well, it seems it would be a perfect fit for the Optional Rules bit. With Possessed, it clearly stated Optional Rules, so that was an easy choice. Now with these weapons (as well as the Rapier for the Mercs, and I suppose the Wolf Priest too) I guess Optional Rules is an excellent idea.

Who knows, maybe I can get to it today. It's actually quite a bit of work to change things up and I love doing it, but it takes a bit of dedicated time, which I don't always have with two kids running around. Smile (The eldest does love the scenery)
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Tue 30 Dec 2014 - 11:24

I like the Idea, though it's a massive undertaking!

I have tried to get easy references up on the web in order to get everything located in one place as far as items, mounts, encounters etc. go, but this is a big thing you're doing!

If you are going to have the optional rulesets combined with the actual rules (and in case multiple articles get combined as well) it might be a good thing to state where the original rules came from? i.e. what release you've used, and what the first mention of the item/character/band was?

I've tried to do that with the item lists, which makes for easier annotations, but you might find a way with the bands as well?

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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Wed 31 Dec 2014 - 5:10

Not a bad idea, to mention the sources. Will do in the next update.

Yes, it is a massive undertaking, but you know me... a little crazy... but the good thing is I am taking it one warband at a time, and some take maybe an hour to finish, some a little longer, but others might take a little less, so all in all... At one point it will be finished and hopefully will make a ton of people happy.

If you want to link my work on your reference site, by all means do. Unite our forces, so to speak.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Thu 15 Jan 2015 - 3:53

Work has slowed down a bit but I am still at it, so no worries. I just need to find a bit of time to tidy up some things before I can finish the next one, which is Undead. I think I will call it "Von Carsteins Undead", much like how the human warbands are called "Reikland Mercenaries" etc., so I can include the other Vampire families that way too. (I know, I overthink those things)

I reworked the lay-out a little so that it now includes optional rules, clearly defined as optional, including the source. I think you will like the changes. Hopefully soon!
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Wed 15 Apr 2015 - 20:55

We've got a couple new people joining our campaign, and there will be very helpful. I appreciate the time you've put into them, and hope you get a chance to continue.

I also really like the way you did the optional rules with the possesed. Maybe the Wolf Priest should be the same way? We'll be using him anyway, but we like to use a lot of the toys and go into realizing that balance isn't really a think in mordheim.
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PostSubject: Re: New Clean Warband Lists   Wed 21 Oct 2015 - 3:14

Man, it's almost been a full year since the last update. A LOT has happened in that time, so...

Even though Mordheim is not something we currently play, I felt inclined to at least finish the basic warbands, so I am at it again, for the time being. I changed a couple of minor gripes in the human merc rosters, and Witch Hunters.

More importantly, the original Undead warband is also now done, renamed as Von Carstein Undead, as that is what they are. This makes the distinction clearer when I release the other Undead warbands.
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