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Phantasmal_fiend
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 13:36

rory wrote:
Well it comes to this: the lizardmen have this save which is very hard to get trough, an extra bite attack and the LD save with 3 dice. It is very hard to rout them. What do you guys advice a beastmen player? Pure high strenght just does not seem to cut it. What about maces?

And before you say, target the skinks...he places them high up somewhere, where it is very hard for my low I beasties to get to.

Gang up on his Saurus, expect casualties. If he is splitting his saurus from skinks then you "should" have higher numbers on the ground or more close combat warriors, you will strike first in combat so charge with at least 3 warriors to his one, if you get charged take the hit first round then charge in as many warriors as you can. Your Minotaur should be able to handle his kroxigor, if not try getting him to frenzy before taking him on if those don't work get your minotaur too start climbing and taking out the skinks and send in one ungor or hound to intercept the kroxigor all game and try to have as few warriors in B2b contact with it all game.

Gromril Axes are cheap enough and will completely negate the Scaly Skin Save if he doesn't have a shield, As those modifiers are not from strength
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 13:44

Oke, well he usually keeps his entire band in 1 big blob. Thats the problem. Maybe its my own setup? I have the normal heroes and 2 ungors, 2 hounds and 1 gor at the moment.

If I am correct, the gromril axe does not negate the scale save?

"Gromril Weapon (RB 27); 4 x Price; Availability: Rare 11
Only a Dwarf Runesmith can forge a weapon from Gromril, a rare meteoric iron. A blade fashioned from this metal will stay keen for a thousand years. A Gromril weapon has an extra -1 save modifier, and costs four times the price of a normal weapon of its kind. You may choose which type of hand-to-hand weapon is offered to you as explained in the Trading section."
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 15:29

A Gromril Axe would negate a 5+ save. Cutting Edge and Gromril Weapon are not strength based save modifiers.
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 15:50

How would this still negate the scale armour save? It says in the rules of the lizardmen that the scale armour cannot be lowered. Or am I missing something?
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 15:53

Cannot be modified beyond 6 due to strength modifiers. Neither Gromril nor Cutting Edge are strength.
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Phantasmal_fiend
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 16:45

rory wrote:
Oke, well he usually keeps his entire band in 1 big blob. Thats the problem. Maybe its my own setup? I have the normal heroes and 2 ungors, 2 hounds and 1 gor at the moment.

If I am correct, the gromril axe does not negate the scale save?

"Gromril Weapon (RB 27); 4 x Price; Availability: Rare 11
Only a Dwarf Runesmith can forge a weapon from Gromril, a rare meteoric iron. A blade fashioned from this metal will stay keen for a thousand years. A Gromril weapon has an extra -1 save modifier, and costs four times the price of a normal weapon of its kind. You may choose which type of hand-to-hand weapon is offered to you as explained in the Trading section."

You said he places his skinks up high, for ground forces you should still have numbers and speed.
Try firebombs or powder kegs then, or your shaman to deal with clusters.
When placing terrain try give plenty of cover around elevated positions to cover your advance and force them into bottle necks.

and like mike said a gromril axe has a -2 Armour Save and it is not from strength modifiers it is two separate abilities, the lizardmen scaly skin save is only not modified by strength.
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Wed 26 Nov 2014 - 18:00

Guess we're back at the whole negating Scaly Skin saves again; and someone agrees with my interpretation it seems!

Anyway. Dealing with the Lizzies... Well, I must admit that it is hard, but of course not completely undoable. Most depends on how strong your Heroes are and how strong his are. If he's sitting on 4 - 5 Saurus Heroes, I can understand if you're in trouble, but if he only has the Totem Warrior, it shouldn't be a problem. Melee warbands tend to have a hard time with them though, as it can be hard to get a hold on the Skinks and the Saurus can become a bit stronger than your Beastmen. I'd advise agains bottlenecking him, as his Skinks are really a joke in close combat, so you just want to get all your have in the fight and outnumber his Saurus.
You need Halberds and Mighty Blow on your Heroes at least; this will bring his save to 6+ usually, while your henchmen can focus on his Skinks. If you have Word of Pain, you can take out half his warband if he clusters up. Since it ignores armour saves and wounds Skinks on 3+, you're off for a pretty good start of the combat. Make sure you have a Familiar if you play with that. Vision of Torment is great on his Kroxigor if he has one, or of course his baddest Saurus Hero. Dark Blood is always a welcome guest as well, and can easily get rid of an annoying Saurus. If you have Eye of God on one of your Heroes, and gain a roll of 6, he can just stomp away alone.
Anyway, you will mostly gain the initiative on his Saurus, so make sure you kill one off at a time. Double-handed Weapons on your Gors might prove useful, so he will have to pick between the hard-hitting attack in a moment, or getting your Heroes down. I'd advise this on A2 Gors only though. As for the Ungors: Skip them, their S3 does not contribute and you need that extra Gor Hero. And the Warhounds; unless he's still only sitting on 4 Toughness, Gors with big weapons might be the way to go. Your goal is to outnumber his Saurus with a great deal of attacks that hit like trains; that's what Beastmen should be good at.

As a last comment: I know Lizardmen are very hard to deal with. You need to kill off the Saurus before they get too strong. Especially Lad's Saurus Heroes.
Also, in my experience, ranged warbands have a much easier time dealing with Lizzies, but of course you should play what you want!
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Sun 30 Nov 2014 - 12:22

There's a few things that strike me about your problems with Lizards:
-you are reacting to his warband rather than making him react to you. This is never a good plan.

-is this a two person campaign? I haven't much experience with only two players, but I will say if there are only two of you it helps if you do not play only one warband each. The Mordheim campaign system (or most campaign systems) is not very forgiving of early reverses.

-how do you choose scenarios? Do you roll randomly or just pick one? Random choice should give you opportunities to thwart his favorite tactic. Forting up only works in a few scenarios. Any time he has to spread out to fulfill objectives you should have more opportunities. If you are just picking a scenario to play, pick scenarios that don't give your opponent a chance to fort up.

-how are you playing the bite attack? After the discussion of the scaly skin save I am curious. If you are allowing his saurus to auto-kill your stunned or knocked down models with this attack, you are not doing it right.

-how much terrain do you have? For that matter are you playing in a Mordheim setting or Empire in Flames or Lustria? More terrain, especially urban terrain should favor your warband.

-Beastmen versus Lizards. Lets look at your strengths instead of his. You have high toughness heroes that move fairly fast. Most of your heroes start at their maximum strength, but you can BUY extra attacks and higher strength through mutations and equipment. In addition your heroes can choose Combat or Strength Skills. You have two heroes that can start with Speed skills, giving your leader lightning reflexes early will ensure that he always strikes before the Saurus.

Your henchmen are all better than his skinks in combat. If the skinks are hiding in heights send your Ungors on climbing attacks against them. If the Ungor die this is a plus, but its likely that they will mess up the skinks.

Hire more gors and fewer ungors. Ungors can't become heroes and are not necessary until later in the game.

When you can buy a Minotaur. He will get better and you can buy him equipment to make him the equal of most heroes until the late game.

-General things
Pay attention to scenario rules. I see a lot of players who just make frontal attacks on their opponent rather than checking the rules for winning a scenario. This allows players with a favorite tactic to use it to their advantage to win scenarios that they would otherwise struggle in.

-Things You can do to overcome His strengths.
--You can buy any armor you want. If he's bothering you with his save, get one of your own. All of a sudden the skinks are going to be less of threat and the saurus need to think about armor penetration, too.

--Buy unholy relics and warhorns to help with low leadership.

--Buy Rabbits Feet or Wyrdstone pendulums to help with income until your leadership improves. When it does get Tarot Cards.

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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 3:00

Von Kurst wrote:
There's a few things that strike me about your problems with Lizards:
-you are reacting to his warband rather than making him react to you.  This is never a good plan.

-is this a two person campaign?  I haven't much experience with only two players, but I will say if there are only two of you it helps if you do not play only one warband each.  The Mordheim campaign system (or most campaign systems) is not very forgiving of early reverses.

-how do you choose scenarios?  Do you roll randomly or just pick one?  Random choice should give you opportunities to thwart his favorite tactic.  Forting up only works in a few scenarios. Any time he has to spread out to fulfill objectives you should have more opportunities.  If you are just picking a scenario to play, pick scenarios that don't give your opponent a chance to fort up.

-how are you playing the bite attack?  After the discussion of the scaly skin save I am curious. If you are allowing his saurus to auto-kill your stunned or knocked down models with this attack, you are not doing it right.

-how much terrain do you have?  For that matter are you playing in a Mordheim setting or Empire in Flames or Lustria?  More terrain, especially urban terrain should favor your warband.

-Beastmen versus Lizards.  Lets look at your strengths instead of his.  You have high toughness heroes that move fairly fast.  Most of your heroes start at their maximum strength, but you can BUY extra attacks and higher strength through mutations and equipment.  In addition your heroes can choose Combat or Strength Skills.  You have two heroes that can start with Speed skills, giving your leader lightning reflexes early will ensure that he always strikes before the Saurus.

Your henchmen are all better than his skinks in combat.  If the skinks are hiding in heights send your Ungors on climbing attacks against them.  If the Ungor die this is a plus, but its likely that they will mess up the skinks.

Hire more gors and fewer ungors.  Ungors can't become heroes and are not necessary until later in the game.

When you can buy a Minotaur.  He will get better and you can buy him equipment to make him the equal of most heroes until the late game.

-General things
Pay attention to scenario rules.  I see a lot of players who just make frontal attacks on their opponent rather than checking the rules for winning a scenario.  This allows players with a favorite tactic to use it to their advantage to win scenarios that they would otherwise struggle in.

-Things You can do to overcome His strengths.  
--You can buy any armor you want.  If he's bothering you with his save, get one of your own.  All of a sudden the skinks are going to be less of threat and the saurus need to think about armor penetration, too.

--Buy unholy relics and warhorns to help with low leadership.

--Buy Rabbits Feet or Wyrdstone pendulums to help with income until your leadership improves.  When it does get Tarot Cards.


thumbsup  thumbsup Double-thumbs up for this; almost gets me in the mood for writing a Beastmen guide, or would you like to to that? Wink

One note though: I think I'd skip armour against them, as his Saurus henchmen has S4, meaning that you have a max of 6+ against them (unless you go with Shields, reducing your movement, but that you mean you won't get the charge, which you will need, since he can just stand back and shoot. It might be a viable option for the Heroes though, as they could enter later on, when the fight is already on.)
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 12:34

I am not just complaining about his warband. I just did not yet mention some of the advantages the beastmen warband has. We are playing a 4 man campaign. The bite attack always strikes last does it not? So how could it not kill something after its stunned? We are just playing with the normal mordheim houses, nothing special. My I is not great either so no major advantages. I can choose strenght and such, but so can his sauras warriors. I am hiring gors as we speak. I have 2 atm. We are already 4 battles into the campaign. I managed to totally wipe him the first battle and he started over. After that I got absolutely trashed for the next 2 battles. I just dont see any clear advantages, my warriors are tough for beginners, but now everyone has caught up. Oh and the biggest things is my dice rolls, just utter crap. I knocked one of his saurus warriors and could kill him with a 1,2 or 3 (centigor with 2h weapon) and I just roll 2 1's xD. Well see next battle.
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 12:37

Btw, does equiping a shield give you a movement penalty? I though this was only the case with heavy armour?
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 14:49

There was an FAQ that explained that a single model may never knock down/stun an enemy and then get the bonuses against that enemy for being stunned/knocked down in the same combat phase, even if their attacks are striking at different I steps. The ability to attack > stun > auto OOA all coming from one model is just too good. Tones down the saurus bite as well as the combo of an ithilmar weapon and a normal weapon in the off hand. If one saurus takes down a model then another saurus in the same combat can still potentially auto OOA then with it's bite though.

You're correct about shields only slowing you with heavy armor. However, you'd need heavy armor and a shield to get a worthwhile (5+) save against S4 saurus.
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 17:35

NoisyAssassin wrote:
There was an FAQ that explained that a single model may never knock down/stun an enemy and then get the bonuses against that enemy for being stunned/knocked down in the same combat phase, even if their attacks are striking at different I steps.

I am pretty sure that this is stated fairly direct in the Core Rulebook!
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 21:53

I think it's an errata that appears in the updated online versions, but not the original printed versions. Memory might be messing with me on that though...
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Mon 1 Dec 2014 - 22:56

Mordheim rulebook Pg 21 wrote:
attacking stunned

and knocked down warriors

Note that a model with multiple attacks may not

stun/knock down and then automatically take a

warrior out of action during the same hand-to-hand

combat phase. The only way you can achieve this is to

have more than one of your models attacking the

same enemy. So, if the enemy is stunned/knocked

down by the first warrior, he can be hit and put out of

action by the next warrior to attack.

If your model is engaged in close combat with an

enemy who is still standing, he cannot attack any

other models that are stunned or knocked down,

since in reality they will not pose an immediate threat

to him and their companions will try to protect them.
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PostSubject: Re: Blood dragons   Today at 13:09

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