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 How do squigs jump?

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Carantur
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PostSubject: How do squigs jump?   Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 7:32

I've recently played a game in which a problem arose about squigs jumping to the higher levels of a building.

So the question is: When a squig jumps towards a ruin, must it enter through a door and then climb, or does it simply bounce and land on the second floor?

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 9:38

Unless some rule says they climb via jumping then it is simply a climb.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 14:11

Squigs are animals by the warband list and animals do not climb.

I would perhaps house rule a height limit on a jump during movement for fun but that is your call in your group.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Thu 20 Nov 2014 - 18:31

In my group we allowed them to jump up to higher levels, but, instead of a climbing roll, they needed a Landing roll. The landing roll was an I test at -1 for each 2" of vertical movement. If the Squig failed the Landing Test it was placed Knocked Down. Normal rules followed from there.

This sometimes meant that squigs entered combat knocked down. It also sometimes meant that the squig would land, be Knocked down within an inch of an edge, fail *that* test, and then fall to the ground. Fun times all around Smile.

Just to clarify, the sequence would go:
1/ Roll for movement.
2/ Place the squig within the movement dome.
3/ Roll any landing test needed.
4/ Resolve any tests for falling within 1" of an edge, if necessary
5/ Resolve any falling damage, if necessary.
6, etc/ follow as normal.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 2:50

In my opinion squigs move "close to the ground" , they do not ignore terrain such as obsctacle higher than 1" or other models. This is just normal movement with variable M value . Certainly they don't fly.
On the other hand:
Squig movement wrote:
Squigs never run and never declare charges.
Instead, they are allowed to contact enemy models with their
normal 2D6" movement. If this happens, they count as
charging for the following round of close combat, just as if
they had declared a charge.
I find that orc players abuse this part very often using squigs to "charge" enemies that are out of sight or hidden. Is there a way to stop it legally?
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 9:42

Thanks for your replies.

It does seem that we'll have to house rule something about this. Squigs are so characterfull that to just have them moving a random distance along the ground seems a waste of opportunity for funny moments. I see them as bouncing rubber balls with teeth, and that should have advantages as well as disadvantages.

I can imagine a squig failing a "charge" because it bounced too much and just went over its intended target. This kind of unpredictability is what I consider that O&G should be all about.

Cheers
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 12:10

catachanfrog wrote:
In my opinion squigs move "close to the ground" , they do not ignore terrain such as obsctacle higher than 1" or other models. This is just normal movement with variable M value . Certainly they don't fly.
While most GW artwork portrays squigs as very bounciny and even leaping high while carrying riders, I agree that by the rules they do not inherently have a special ability to avoid terrain.
catachanfrog wrote:
I find that orc players abuse this part very often using squigs to "charge" enemies that are out of sight or hidden. Is there a way to stop it legally?
I don't see this as an abuse. The use of squigs is a risk to the Orc player, as is many of his units. Squigs can outpace their handlers and will go wild at the beginning of a movement phase with the handler farther than 6 inches away. Or the handler is a prime target of a sniper. Once squigs go wild there is no controlling them again.

Orcs and goblins are fun and chaotic. Very powerful or hilariously failing, usually somewhere in  between.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Fri 21 Nov 2014 - 17:15

Rulebook wrote:
jumping over gaps

Models may jump over gaps (up to a maximum of 3")

and streets, (eg, from the roof of a building to

another). Deduct the distance jumped from the

model’s movement but remember that you cannot

measure the distance before jumping. If your model

does not have enough movement to jump the

distance, he automatically falls. If your model is able

to cover the distance, he must pass an Initiative test or

fall.

I would allow this for squigs vertically rather than just horizontally but when i change rule for one warband as games master i have to an equal ruling to other warbands to balance things so I would apply this rule to all animals and consider the falling distance the height of the jump.

its pretty unfeasible for a squig or animal to jump heights greater than 3" anyway
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 5:48

Mike wrote:

I don't see this as an abuse. The use of squigs is a risk to the Orc player, as is many of his units. Squigs can outpace their handlers and will go wild at the beginning of a movement phase with the handler farther than 6 inches away. Or the handler is a prime target of a sniper. Once squigs go wild there is no controlling them again.

Orcs and goblins are fun and chaotic. Very powerful or hilariously failing, usually somewhere in  between.

Orc players are quite aware of squig movement rules - situation when squig starts his movement outside goblin handler's "control" radius is very rare.
That is because there are several goblins with overlapping control areas, not mentioning that if your squig shots forward, next turn you can always move goblin first to prevent squig going wild "at the start of it's movement phase". At least players with some experience play that way Smile


I have 2 questions:
- Is squig movement compulsory? (can they opt not to move at all)
- Can squig pseudo-charge be intercepted?
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 8:19

Quote :
That is because there are several goblins with overlapping control areas, not mentioning that if your squig shots forward, next turn you can always move goblin first to prevent squig going wild "at the start of it's movement phase".

Um, what? Well stop that.

Quote :
- Can squig pseudo-charge be intercepted?
Yes. Especially if they try the 'jump right over 5 models to get at the guy in the back' thing.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 11:14

@Von Kurst
Stop what? Explain?

Don't know if your squig-interception answer is serious.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 11:49

catachanfrog wrote:
Orc players are quite aware of squig movement rules - situation when squig starts his movement outside goblin handler's "control" radius is very rare.
That is because there are several goblins with overlapping control areas, not mentioning that if your squig shots forward, next turn you can always move goblin first to prevent squig going wild "at the start of it's movement phase". At least players with some experience play that way Smile
I see the abuse now. I would consider the "start of its movement phase" the start of the Orc player's movement phase. My interpretation. Overlapping handler control areas is just good strategy.

catachanfrog wrote:
Is squig movement compulsory? (can they opt not to move at all)
Squig movement is not compulsory if they are still controlled by handlers, but perhaps this can be made a house rule condition of the squig lore if you allow squigs to leap over objects rules don't specifically allow?
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 15:16

Quote :
Minderz: Each Cave Squig must always remain within 6" of a Goblin Warrior, who keeps the creature in line. If a Cave Squig finds itself without a Goblin within 6" at the start of its Movement phase, it will go wild. From that point on, move the Squig 2D6" in a random direction during each of its Movement phases. If its movement takes it into contact with another model (friend or foe), it will engage the model in hand-to-hand combat as normal. The Cave Squig is out of the Orc & Goblin player’s control until the end of the game.
I can see why it might have been interpreted how you did since the rules say "at the start of its Movement phase" but that is just cheesy and badly written rules. The Movement phase for squigs is the Movement phase for the entire warband. Each warrior does not get a separate Movement phase. Therefore the squigs would lose control before the goblins can even move closer.

Quote :
Movement: Cave Squigs do not have a set Movement characteristic but move with an ungainly bouncing stride. To represent this, when moving Squigs, roll 2D6 for the distance they move. Squigs never run and never declare charges. Instead, they are allowed to contact enemy models with their normal 2D6" movement. If this happens, they count as charging for the following round of close combat, just as if they had declared a charge.
I would argue that squig movement is compulsory. This is because you have no choice of whether squigs move or not. This is regardless of whether there are handlers or no handlers. The difference is that the compulsory move is controlled by handlers or random once the squigs lose control. Therefore if you did interpret that each warrior has its own Movement phase then the squigs would move in the compulsory section of the Movement phase before the goblins could move closer as a remaining move so the squigs would lose control in this interpretation also. One could argue that the phrase "when moving Squigs" gives the orc player a choice to move the squigs but I do not believe that this would be a correct interpretation because it would make squigs too easy to control and does not make sense based on fluff.

My understanding of intercepting squigs is that it cannot be done by the standard method. This is because squigs do not declare charges and charge. Their compulsory move counts as a charge if they end in base-to-base contact with an enemy. Therefore if you want to 'intercept' squigs then you need to position the intercepting warriors between the squigs and what you think would be the squigs likely target. This is what I believe that VK was alluding to.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sat 22 Nov 2014 - 17:56

Lacking an official rules errata this one will come down to house rules and interpretation.

I still think squig movement while in the control distance of handlers is not compulsory. Fluff wise, stated in the WHFB 5th edition which Mordheim was based on, squigs that are still herded move and fight like any other unit. Handlers are able to keep them tenuously heeled. That being said, I know Mordheim squigs use the 2d6" movement rate of a wild squig. That is part of the balancing act, chaotic but not useless. If you feel squigs must move compulsorily then bounce them back and forth laterally while handlers move forward, or aim them at a wall for a holding pattern.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Sun 23 Nov 2014 - 20:21

Quote :
@Von Kurst
Stop what? Explain?

That awful rules interpretation.

RL wrote:
I can see why it might have been interpreted how you did since the rules say "at the start of its Movement phase" but that is just cheesy and badly written rules. The Movement phase for squigs is the Movement phase for the entire warband. Each warrior does not get a separate Movement phase. Therefore the squigs would lose control before the goblins can even move closer.

+1.

RL wrote:
I would argue that squig movement is compulsory.
Well yes in Warhammer. Is there 'compulsory' movement in Mordheim?

RL wrote:
Therefore if you want to 'intercept' squigs then you need to position the intercepting warriors between the squigs and what you think would be the squigs likely target. This is what I believe that VK was alluding to.
Well actually no, although I suppose in practice it may have worked that way. Our goblin player was trying to 'leap' whole lines of figures to attack weaker models to the back. That's silly. We just intercept as normal.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Mon 24 Nov 2014 - 1:30

Mordheim Rulebook wrote:
2. Compulsory Moves
Sometimes a model is forced to move in a certain way
and this is called a compulsory move. For example, a
fighter whose nerve breaks must run away from his
enemies and take cover.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Mon 24 Nov 2014 - 2:03

Just adding to Mike's answer for completeness in regards to my previous post:
Mordheim Rulebook wrote:
During the movement phase models are moved in the following order:
1. Charge!
...
2. Compulsory Moves
...
3. Remaining Moves
I believe that squigs must move in 2 above while goblins (unless charging or fleeing or frenzied or ...) move in 3 above.

Mike wrote:
If you feel squigs must move compulsorily then bounce them back and forth laterally while handlers move forward, or aim them at a wall for a holding pattern.
I have no problem with an orc player doing this. Moving squigs back and forwards or aiming them at a wall to stop their movement will almost certainly mean that they are not positioned in the most strategic location even if it does give the orc player a degree of control. This is in contrast to having squigs wait patiently at a strategic position on the table waiting for the enemy to come.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Mon 24 Nov 2014 - 4:02

@ RationalLemming, Mike
Thanks for replying. Yes, I was indeed confused by wording of that squig movement-rule. Sir, yes sir!
Still not sure about squig movement in general (compulsory or not), although RL's reasoning appeals to my sense of logic.

Von Kurst wrote:
Is there 'compulsory' movement in Mordheim?
Everyone has a bad day I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: How do squigs jump?   Mon 24 Nov 2014 - 7:11

In our gaming group, we are tempted to use squigs as living stone throwers, meaning that you can get at the model at the back, but you have to be lucky not to overshoot him...
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