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 Dark Blood and Helmets

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Caledore
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PostSubject: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 9:42

When using Dark Blood, the caster takes an injury roll. Any roll of out of action is treated as stunned instead. Ignoring the logical problems with this, the rules as written seem to support the helmet still working on this injury roll.

There is a bit of a question whether a 5-6 allows the helmet save, however, as there has been precedence that a 'downgraded' injury is treated differently than a natural roll. In particular, how Jump Up works with No Pain or a helmet save - it works on a natural knockdown but not a result downgraded from stunned to knocked down.

Rules as written, as far as I can tell, supports that the helmet save works on any stunned result, since Jump Up specifies how it works with No Pain or a helmet save, while Dark Blood specifies nothing about how it works with a helmet. By my interpretation, a helmet save would be taken on any roll of 3-6. I was curious if anyone sees it differently, or is aware of any official clarification (I haven't found any).

From a balance perspective, does anyone have experience with this combination, and if so, was it a problem? It seems like it could be a bit too powerful, but it does require as skill to be taken to equip the helmet (Warrior Wizard).
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 11:40

I've not seen it used in play, so can't comment there. In any campaign I ran, I wouldn't allow a helmet save when using that spell, as it doesn't make any sense!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 13:53

I would say no. Its a magical attack that isn't a blunt attack. Helmets only applies to hammers and maces. Blunt weapons only. Dark Blood isn't a blunt attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 14:44

flipchuck wrote:
I would say no. Its a magical attack that isn't a blunt attack.  Helmets only applies to hammers and maces. Blunt weapons only. Dark Blood isn't a blunt attack.

I believe we are playing with quite different rules, if you say that Helmets can only be used against Hammers / Maces; I do not see that being distinguished from Sword / Axe stuns in the Rulebook. According to RAW, I am pretty sure Helmet saves can be used against spells as well, whether friendly fired or not. I will check up on that tomorrow. Else I believe this particular case is up for House ruling, as we have considered in our group.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 14:46

More on topic, regarding the 5-6 stun, it is different from the KD example, as the spell will never be able to take yourself OOA. Thus it is a simple stun. More on that tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 14:54

I alwys thought that helmet would only do hammers and maces and such. Never thought about swords and such. But as against magic, I'm not so sure. But also, a helmet is armour and most wizards can't cast spells while wearing armor unless they have the "warrior wizard" spell.

Also, the injury cause by the spell is a ruslt of the wizard cuting himself for the spell. In order to make the speel work, he needs his blood to do it. So if the helmet is protecting him for stunned roll would mean it provented him from cutting himself and thus not being able to cast the spell because he didn't get the blood needed for the spell. I don't have to rule book with me so some of this is from memory.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Mon 10 Nov 2014 - 15:19

Wow. That got complacated fast.

Ok. Helmets is armor. When casting the spell, the speel caster rolls on the injury table atomanctlly. There is no roll to wounds, no taking a wound and no armor saves. It bypasses all that. Since the helmet is armor and armor got bypassed, then the helmet save agaisnt stunned wouldn't apply.

Otherwise, the spell could become unblanced by the spell caster having the "warrior wizard" skill, lost of wounds, high toughtness plus armor, shield and helmet while riding a horse with barding, casting the spell without much fear of hurting himself. A little too powerful.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 2:20

While I definitely understand the problem in a direct injury roll vs. an injury roll caused by a Wounding hit, there is no immediate distinction in the rulebook. As both Dark Blood and Warrior Wizard are from the official living rulebook, this problem should be solveable without resorting to any outside information, aside from FAQs. I have checked all FAQs I know of, and cannot find an answer there. So what do we know:

The spell in question does the following:
Mordheim Rulebook p. 43 wrote:
Dark Blood. This attack has a range of 8" and causes D3 S5 hits. It hits the first model in its path. After using this spell the Chaos Mage must roll on the Injury table for himself to see how dangerous the wound is, though treat the out of action result as stunned instead.

Helmets have a special rule, quoted here:
Mordheim Rulebook p. 35 wrote:
Avoid stun: A model that is equipped with a helmet has a special 4+ save on a D6 against being stunned. If the save is made, treat the stunned result as knocked down instead. This save is not modified by the opponent’s Strength.

However, Wizards (as Chaos Sorcerers are) may not wear armour, according to this rule:
Mordheim Rulebook p. 40 wrote:
Casting spells. A wizard may not use magic if he is wearing armour or has a shield or buckler. The only exception is the Prayers of Sigmar. Sisters of Sigmar and Warrior-Priests may wear armour and use their prayers.

There is of course a way around this:
Mordheim Rulebook p. 84 wrote:
Warrior Wizard. This skill may only be taken by spellcasters. The mental powers of the wizard allow him to wear armour and cast spells.

From this we know the following:
If the spell is succesful, Dark Blood knocks down the caster on a roll of 1-2 and stuns the caster on a 3-6. There is no 'OOA' result.
If the caster is wearing a Helmet, made possible due to the Warrior Wizard skill, he has a special save of 4+ on a D6 against being stunned. There is no rule that excludes the Helmet save from being used against spells or prayers of any kind.

Concerning the Jump Up case:
Mordheim Rulebook p. 84 wrote:
Jump Up. The warrior can regain his footing in an instant, springing to his feet immediately if he is knocked down. The warrior may ignore knocked down results when rolling for injuries, unless he is knocked down because of a successful save from wearing a helmet or because he has the No Pain special rule.

This could have relevance due to OOA results being converted into stunned results, in the same way as a Helmet could convert a stun into a knocked down result. There is no rule to back this up however. We must then assume that the injury table is then changed specifically for this spell.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 2:27

flipchuck wrote:
Ok. Helmets is armor.

Agree.

flipchuck wrote:
When casting the spell, the speel caster rolls on the injury table atomanctlly. There is no roll to wounds, no taking a wound and no armor saves.

Agree.

flipchuck wrote:
It bypasses all that. Since the helmet is armor and armor got bypassed, then the helmet save agaisnt stunned wouldn't apply.

Nowhere does the spell say it bypasses armour; there's just no 'armour save' involved - it just says that you must roll directly on the Injury table, which is the only place Helmets work.

flipchuck wrote:
Otherwise, the spell could become unblanced by the spell caster having the "warrior wizard" skill, lost of wounds, high toughtness plus armor, shield and helmet while riding a horse with barding, casting the spell without much fear of hurting himself.  A little too powerful.

It is still possible to get stunned; you just have a 4+ save against it now. That's still knocked down on 1 - 4, stunned on 5 - 6, if you make it out in percentages.
Also, I am unsure how this would work on mounted animals, as the injury table technically changes I believe. Not using those rules a lot though.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 6:56

Multiple wounds wouldn't help in any case, since it doesn't truly cause a wound but instead causes a direct roll on the injury table. Even if the caster was at 3 wounds, they'd still have to roll on the table.

From a rules perspective, I agree that the rulebook doesn't preclude the helmet being used at all. If you couldn't find any FAQ that said otherwise as well, I think it's safe to assume it's allowed.

It's stupid from a logical stand poiint (a helmet protecting from cutting one's palm open), but it's hardly the only rule that doesn't make logical sense, so I defer to RAW in this case.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 8:05

If you want a fluff justification, think of it as, "Wizard casts the spell and falls into a swoon from loss of blood. On the way down, he may hit his head on the pavement, turning the knock down into a stun. The helmet has a chance to protect his head if this happens."

On a balance justification, if they have ot take a skill to even use the helmet might as well reward them for it. And it is, after all, allowed via RAW.

From a strictly rules consistency standpoint, a house rule to not have the helmet count for rolls of 5-6 would make some sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 14:14

Dark Blood Difficulty 8

The Chaos Mage cuts his palm and his blood spurts out, burning flesh and armour.

This attack has a range of 8" and causes D3 S5 hits. It hits the first model in its path. After using

this spell the Chaos Mage must roll on the Injury table for himself to see how dangerous the

wound is
, though treat the out of action result as stunned instead.

Ok so the wizard cuts his hand and a ton of blood pours out, the wizard then rolls on the injury table to see how bad he/she sliced themselves up.
The only argument i have with NoisyAssassin's logic is that you don't get helmet saves from falling other than that i caught on the fence.
I was dead against allowing a helmet save till i read NoisyAssassin's post, and sure why not if you have a suicidal sorcerer protect his noggan, i can't see any rules against it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 16:10

So the wizard cuts his hand which cause blood lose and which he has to roll on the injury table.  so he can cast the spell. How does a helmet protects his hand from injury?

But if you reall want the helmet to protect your spell caster from being stunned then once it has been provented, then it mean he wasn't harmed in the first place because the helmet portected him and therefore the spell could not be cast, since it need his blood to cast it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 18:10

The spell *never* stuns you, it can only knock you down. However, sometimes the *fall* will stun you when you hit your head on the ground.  A helmet will save against this stunning as per normal. In my group we prefer to bend the flavour to fit the rules, rather than the other way around Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 18:30

The unjury roll and the effect of the injury is apart of the casting cost of the spell. The spell itself is powerful and kind of unbalancing. The injury helps counter the balance. Having the helemt prevents the injury for the spell makes the spell unblanced again. Kind of bending the rules.

Heyn why stop there, let's have heavy armor and sheild not reduce movemnet as well. And since we use fluff to justify it, let's have our guys have access to chainswords because deamons can warp to 40' and back to the Warhammer fantasy world....

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Tue 11 Nov 2014 - 19:37

Phantasmal_fiend wrote:
Dark Blood Difficulty 8

The Chaos Mage cuts his palm and his blood spurts out, burning flesh and armour.

As with all other spells and alike: Please take the fluff text with a grain of salt. Going by the rules as written simple just makes things easier. If there was any doubt in regards to this spell from the rules as written, I could understand it, but I have provided all the rule information needed to judge whether a Helmet works on this spell or not. Let's call the spell something else and have the effect be something else fluffwise; the spell still works how it does and we can find some 'logical' sense in how it works and why a Helmet would prevent a stun, like it was just done with the 'I didn't hit my head too hard'-example.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Wed 12 Nov 2014 - 9:54

While I'm a big fluff proponent, I agree that it's better to stick to the rules as written when a conflict arises. There are too many instances of conflicts between fluff and rules in Mordheim to fix them all without making the rules very complicated and cumbersome, so I've found that it's better to stick with the rules even when they don't make logical sense.

That said the explanation of the helmet protecting the caster from hitting his/her head on the ground when they faint from blood loss makes enough sense to me (and was also suggested my one of my group).

My main concern was from a balance perspective, as the spell is quite strong as is, and was curious if anyone had any direct experience with the combination. We'll be playing it as the helmet working, so I'll be getting some first-hand experience with it soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Wed 12 Nov 2014 - 13:05

As noted before, the helmet doesn't negate the injury. It turns the Stunned result into Knocked Down. Your sorcerer still goes down.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Wed 12 Nov 2014 - 14:24

Most Chaos Sorcerers will be wearing Chaos Armour which you wont need the skill "warrior wizard" for, so if you have invested in that skill you will only be needing it for a helmet or shield.
This thread has made be a believer, I'm all for allowing helmet saves mainly due to the fact i couldn't find anywhere an official rule saying you can't.

In regards to people claiming its over powered otherwise

Warpfire Difficulty 8

A green flame leaps from the outstretched paw of the Sorcerer and burns its victims with indescribable agony.

The spell has a range of 8", hitting the first model in its path. The spell causes D3 Strength 4 hits on its target, and one Strength 3 hit on each model within 2" of the target.


it swaps S5 for S4 and adds a cool blast effect, and no detriment of your spell caster falling down.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Blood and Helmets   Wed 12 Nov 2014 - 17:04

In my group we have played RAW for years and never had a problem with balance for that spell.
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