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 Clan Moulder experimental rules

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Yodhrin
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PostSubject: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sat 20 Sep 2014 - 4:33

OK, so taking on board the comments below, I've finished off the first version of the experimental rules, and got them all formatted and fancified in a PDF(download here). Have a look and let me know what you guys think, and if anyone manages to get a game in with them do let me know how they did and if there's anything that needs toned-down or boosted a bit.

I got my new shinies in the post yesterday(IoB Rat Ogres, box of Clanrats, pack of Otherworld Miniatures Giant Rats, AoW Vermin Lord, pack of Wolf Rats, and Warlord Spinetail), so I'll be putting together my own Moulder warband asap, but it'll be a while before I can start playing.

Spoiler:
 


Last edited by Yodhrin on Tue 30 Sep 2014 - 12:52; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sat 20 Sep 2014 - 12:53

Page 152
http://home.deds.nl/~mordheim/MordheimRulebook.pdf
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Yodhrin
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sat 20 Sep 2014 - 14:48

MrDancyPants wrote:
Page 152
http://home.deds.nl/~mordheim/MordheimRulebook.pdf

Hmm, hadn't seen that. Honestly it doesn't grab me very much, apart from the Ratwolves and mutants you'd be as well playing Eshin counts-as, and the mutations remain static as with the Possessed. I might pinch the idea for allowing mutations on the Rat Ogre though.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sat 20 Sep 2014 - 15:18

Here's the biggest problem with fanmade warbands. People tend to keep saying "Oh, and THIS would be cool, too!" and it gets to the point where you end up with ridiculously broken gimmick warbands like the Nuln Engineers or the Chaos Warriors.

Something to keep in mind is that these are little everyman warbands. These are people who would not normally amount to very much, and you're not going to see things like Fantasy Lord choices. The warband leader should be something more like a unit champion, with limitations on what they actually have access to.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sun 21 Sep 2014 - 5:20

Well yes, hence why I went with a Packmaster rather than Master Moulder as is the case in the one you linked, why I replaced access to magic with the Goading mechanic rather than having both or coming up with powerful new spells, and why I brought the proposal here before even attempting to put costs on things.

I'm not interested in building some power list, I just like the fluff for Moulder and want a way to play them in future campaigns beyond just painting their symbol on a bog-standard Eshin warband.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sun 21 Sep 2014 - 7:21

Quote :
The reason for this thread is that, essentially, I'm a newb at writing rules for Mordheim
I have never tried my hand at a warband. I am always intimidated by the number of variables. Good on you for giving it a go. thumbsup

The cost of things.
The Thingcatcher--15 to 30gc. 15 is standard for +1S weapons. The cost should be increased if the weapon confers a further advantage. (But isn't always, see Sisters of Sigmar.) See also the Black Dwarfs from BTB: mancatcher.

The Beastwhip--10 to 15gc. Its like a steel whip, but doesn't have the whipcrack rule? Since it obviously IS a whip, I would give it the whipcrack rule.

I would recommend using the Clan Pestilens list from TC#29 as a template. Heroes move 5, stats are changed to reflect the nature of the warband. I'm not sure what that would mean but giving the characters a different starting place than Eshin would help to separate the warbands rather than just changing the names of the heroes.

Why are there Stormvermin? My skavenfoo is weak, but I don't recall the connection between Moulder and the elite shock troops. Perhaps scrapping the Stormvermin for mutants? Add another Apprentice (one can never have too many underlings, things happen you know.) Also since the mutant can buy potential stat increases why is he the equal of a Black Skaven?

The clanrats. Someone has to fetch water and clean out the pens. Surely you don't expect the exalted leader to do it?
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sun 21 Sep 2014 - 7:52

I would recommend dropping the warpkin and replacing it with another apprentice, allowing clanrats, more rat ogres, and allowing mutations for rat ogres i.e.
Packmaster: 1
Apprentice: 0-2
Stormvermin: 0-2

Clanrats: 0-5
Giant Rats: 0+
Ratwolves: 0-3
Rat Ogres: 0-2

The reason I would allow the extra apprentice is that you have given the warband the undead vulnerablity of disbanding without your leader being as tough as a vampire. Two apprentices should help alleviate that. Also, I would consider making an apprentice that gains control of the warband simply change its type from Apprentice to Packmaster.

I would also allow trading one Treasure for one wyrdstone shard in the trading phase so the warband can still mutate when not playing in regions that have wyrstone/warpstone.

If you would like to keep twistkin then perhaps allow 0-1 stormvermin to be mutated?

Possibly also allow ratwolves to be mutated, perhaps only 0-1 mutation, perhaps at half-price. Maybe much cheaper, but allowing as many as you want with the downside of dying on 1-2.

Perhaps the price could scale according to the xp track (since you aren't using it for anything else). Pay ten or five gold per box and when you cross off a level box you can roll for a mutation?

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Fri 26 Sep 2014 - 4:07

Good advice thanks guys, lots to chew on.

Von Kurst; I don't think Moulder are particularly associated with Stormvermin on a macro scale, but they do have access to regular Skaven forces as well as their mutants, and they have vassal Warlord Clans like all the major factions. I dropped Whipcrack in favour of the boost to Goading, would 15gc still be acceptable with all three benefits? And now I think on the weapon a bit more, my instinct is to limit the Goading boost in the same way as Whipcrack(ie, you only get it from one whip even if you have two), what do you think?

Your point on the stats is well taken, I'll have a look at the Pestilens list.

Lord 0; I'm not sure about allowing mutations on the Wolf Rats(their actual name, no idea why I thought it was "ratwolves" :/), they're pretty speedy on their own and if Goaded can go even faster, being able to mutate them would be akin to being able to dump up to 3 slightly-weaker Possessed in your enemy's backfield very early in the game. With wolf stats and the poison rule from Spiders they can threaten missile troops 1-on-1 in early-campaign games, and still be useful in that role mid-late campaign by ganging up on enemies, but I don't want to mitigate the Skaven's weakness to missile fire too much.

I like the compromise of allowing Clanrats but limiting their numbers, and 0-5 seems fair, and the Apprentice comment is fair enough.

I'd really like to keep the Twistkin in some form, I can see two ways to do it; go with 1 Packmaster, 0-2 Apprentices, 0-2 Twistkin for the Hero choices, but taking on board VK's comments change the Twistkin stats to be more akin to Clanrats with better leadership OR, keep Stormvermin in, and allow them choose a Skill from the "Special" list(which I'm almost finished with) which would allow them to take one mutation.

Thinking further about Mutations, while I like the idea of the experimentation, I'm wondering if MPD might have a point in that it's needlessly complicating things, and a touch unfluffy. Having a "Twistkin" skill for the Stormvermin and making Rat Ogres 0-2 and each can buy one Mutation when first hired is a bit less fun, IMO, than having a mad warband leader forcefeeding his minions with Wyrdstone, but given the Warband already has Goading to differentiate it, and given that the whole "Island of Dr Moreau" shtick is more the domain of Master Moulders rather than your bogstandard Packmaster, it might be more in-keeping with the background.

Regarding Goading actually, if 0-2 Apprentices and 0-2 Rat Ogres is the way the Warband ends up going, do you think it may be necessary to make it more difficult for Apprentices to Goad? I'm just thinking that being able to goad three monstrous henchmen/henchmen groups every turn might be a tad much.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Fri 26 Sep 2014 - 5:16

Quote :
would 15gc still be acceptable with all three benefits? And now I think on the weapon a bit more, my instinct is to limit the Goading boost in the same way as Whipcrack(ie, you only get it from one whip even if you have two), what do you think?

Maybe 20?

Limiting in the same way would probably be a good idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Fri 3 Oct 2014 - 18:56

I'm enjoying this project a lot, been converting like mad for the past couple of evenings. I've put together a starting warband using the PDF rules(I have an updated version that fixes a couple of wee mistakes, but TinyUpload is being a git so I've nowhere to upload it, suppose I'll have to bite the bullet and find something that requires a signup);

HEROES
------
Packmaster - Thingcatcher, Warplock Pistols(brace); 165wt
Stormvermin 1 - Sword x2; 60wt
Stormvermin 2 - Flail; 55wt
Apprentice 1 - Beastwhip, free dagger; 50wt
Apprentice 2 - Beastwhip, free dagger; 50wt

HENCHMEN
--------
2 Clanrats - Sling, free dagger, Shield; 54wt
1 Wolf Rat - 30wt
3 Giant Rats - 35wt

499wt


I initially tried to put together something with a Rat Ogre, but I hate putting all my eggs in one basket, and you've no choice but to do that since the cost of the Rat Ogre plus the base hiring costs for max Heroes leaves you with pennies to equip them with.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Mon 27 Oct 2014 - 14:32

Well you have 165gc in one basket there anyway... your leader costs 1/3 or your warband!

Always thought there should be a warband for each of the 5 well known Skaven clans, nice to see someone working on Moulder, I think then it's only Mors that i've not seen Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Tue 28 Oct 2014 - 8:06

maxxev wrote:
Well you have 165gc in one basket there anyway... your leader costs 1/3 or your warband!

Always thought there should be a warband for each of the 5 well known Skaven clans, nice to see someone working on Moulder, I think then it's only Mors that i've not seen Smile

Campaign Setting Karak Azgal had a Mors Clan warband, a big warlord clan with Stormvermin heroes. IMO Stormvermin are better with the clan Mors than Moulder like hero type.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Sun 22 Mar 2015 - 5:48

Personnally, I abode with the people who tells to remove the stormvermin. I would add a third apprentice (reducing their cost to 20), Add a master Moulder (as the leader) and keep the packmaster as the second-hand. The master could have 1 or 2 exclusive skills that bolster the use of the mutation chart (see next)...

I'd keep the Master moulder WITHOUT much combat abilities except good stats. But I'd give him the ability to ''modify'' Rat-ogres and clanrats that became heroes (and only them). I'd create one or two random tables of ''experiments'' (with both perks and flaws) that you could roll on ONCE if your Master Moulder wasn't OOA and did not search for rare items. As an example, The first table could require to pay 1D3 Wyrdstone and give weaker mutations with less risks and a second one which require the sacrifice of 2D3 Wyrdstones but also offers both more risks and higher ''rewards''.

This mecanism isnt that much complex and offers a real ''moulder'' taste to the warband...But hey.. ITS YOUR CREATION.. you do what you want !!! Smile

By the way... I like what you have done until now.. I'm always in for new warbands...
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Tue 24 Mar 2015 - 12:55

Honestly, I have a real dislike for "fanbands" that have really high-ranking characters as leaders, I went with the Packmaster quite deliberately as it was the lowest ranked definitively-Moulder character I could find. When you look at the official warbands it's all middle-ranking leaders like Captains, exiled nobles, thralls, adepts etc; Master Moulders would be like the normal Skaven warband being lead by a Deathmaster, or the Mercenary leader being a General or Elector Count. It's personal taste I freely admit, but I much prefer the grittier feel of low- and middle-ranked characters acting as agents for the truly powerful "offscreen" characters, or out of pure self-interest.
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Wed 25 Mar 2015 - 3:12

I get your point but Master Moulders are not all high-ranked they have to go through some kind of ''apprenticeship'' before they get higher ranks and access to more materials and ''cash'' for their experiments...
But well... you know what you do !! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Wed 25 Mar 2015 - 15:02

Sooo... instead of a Master Moulder then do you suggest an Apprentice Moulder (or a Journeyrat Moulder)? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Clan Moulder experimental rules   Thu 26 Mar 2015 - 8:01

Something like that... But remember you are free to do what you want... ITS YOUR creation. I only give you my opinion Smile ...

Its because I really like that idea of a random experimentation chart I mentionned...

''Oh shit... my rat ogre has lost a leg and his movement is reduced to 2... Do i keep this sluggish 200G monster or I throw him away in favor of a new one?''

''Oh cool... This Clanrat got an extra arm.. +1 Att... thx the horned rat it did not died during the experiment!!''

Well you get my point.
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