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poniatowski
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 8:10

I am not prepared for this arguement as I just read it today....
So, like a fool.. I'll open my mouth....

From memory.... doesn't it say something in the pistols part about using them in close combat... you then use the pistol like a club in melee as your weapon.... you shoot as they run up... as you cannot shoot on the move with a pistol unless you have the skill.... So... does this mean you strike as if unarmed if using 2 crossbow pistols? as they cannot be used in melee to stike?

I will read this entirely later today after work.... it is a very interesting query.

As for the brace thing in the buying section... it just means you cannot buy them as a brace... the pistolier rules and in other places do state you can use them as a brace. They are rare and exotic.

I wish I had the rules in front of me.... we had this discussion years ago... the net was.. you can use a brace of crossbow pistols and fire them as you are charged but in combat you were left with nothing to strike with as crossbow pistols cannot be used like clubs in melee like dueling or regular pistols.... something like that...

Sorry if i am waaay off. I will look at the rules and then say something more intelligent.

Also... as an American.. I have ot say this upfront... we play to win and consistantly misinterpret rules all of the time to read in our favor.... The English write what you can do.. not what you cannot and it is understood, while Americans play it like this.... "the rules don't say I can;t do it.... so I must be able to....

That has been a very hard obstacle to cross here in America..... In England they have signe that say "walk" in America they need signs to tell you "don't walk"..... it is a culture thing.

So, what I am saying is.. the English has a very different statement of "the spirit of the game".

I think the interpretation is:
1. you can have a brace of cb pistols, you just cannot buy them as a brace.
2. you can shoot them like black powder pistols but you get that -2 on each shot or as "firing them as a brace"... I need ot get into the rules here... you just have to get into your mindset to "think like an Englishman"
3. Pending the rules look up... I was pretty sure that if you fire the pistol pre-combat... you must use it to strike in combat.. black powder pistols may be used as a club to strike... while cross bow pistols cannot.

The rules between the two are "implied" in the English mindset. There isn't much on historical records that talk about bow, crossbows or crossbow pistols also being used in melee like clubs, while, in fact.. there is plenty of documentation of early firearms being used as clubs... it seems to be a literal translation at face value... not sure if that makes any sense to you guys.

If this comes off as retarded.. sorry... I'll go back to my hole and won't opinionate wihtout rules ot quote.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 11:15

OK.... to late to edit out.... but I found the rules online.. but they seemto be the expanded??? rules.. I am not sure if this is fan made, but it seems to be more of a compilation of all of the rules belnded together....

I remembered incorrectly.... I apologize.
I have a few comments though.... and will have to agree with all parties... in some places the rules are not clear.

Crossbow Pistol (RB 30); 35 gc; Availability: Rare 9
● Shoot In Hand-to-Hand Combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use modelís Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks.

Pistol/brace (RB 31); 15 gc/30 gc; Availability: Rare 8
● Prepare Shot: A pistol takes a whole turn to reload, so you may only fire every other turn. If you have a brace of pistols (i.e., two) you may fire every turn.
● Save Modifier: Pistols are even better at penetrating armor than their Strength value of 4 suggests. A model wounded by a pistol must take its armor save with a -2 modifier.
● Hand-to-Hand: Pistols can be used in hand-to-hand combat as well as for shooting. A model armed with a pistol and another close combat weapon gains +1 Attack, which is resolved at Strength 4 with a -2 save modifier. This bonus attack can be used only once per combat. If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a modelís Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried. Successful hits are resolved at Strength 4 and with a -2 save modifier, regardless of the firerís Strength.

Related skills:
Quick Shot: The warrior may shoot twice per turn with a bow or crossbow (but not a crossbow pistol). (RB 122 Ė Official Errata 2002: see The Ultimate Mordheim Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) & Errata for further information.)

Pistolier: The warrior is an expert at using all kinds of pistols. If he is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols), he may fire twice in the Shooting phase (though note that normal reloading rules apply). If he has a single pistol then he may fire it in the same turn it was reloaded. (RB 122 Ė Official Errata 2002: see The Ultimate Mordheim Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) & Errata for further information)

And this leads to a follow up question... hand crossbows only appear on which warband rosters? further limiting whim can use them...

And:
1. with a crossbow pistol you are effectively getitng 2 shots on your BS BOTH at -2 to hit on each.
2. one hting that is mentioned over and over again in the rules is this... there are rules that say what you can do.... so.... if the rules don't say you can do it.. you cannot. Period.. This covers such things as having a sword in one hand and a cb pistol in the other.... you get the one shot and can use your hand/melee weapon... HOWEVER>>>>> if you are weilding 2 (brace) whether it be cb or black powder... you do NOT have a weapon equipped for melee... otherwise why would it say you could... if weilding one...."This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks." Having more than one attack and dual weilding are 2 different things.

Look at what it says for firing a brace of pistols....
"If you are firing a brace of pistols, your model can fight with 2 Attacks in the first turn of close combat. These attacks are resolved with a modelís Weapon Skill like any normal close combat attack and likewise may be parried.".. note is says use the weapon skill NOT BS and can be parried... it does NOT mention fighting in any subsequent rounds or using your melee weapon.. the pistol shots become your melee attack.

In the case of the hand cb.... you get that +1 attack to trigger first... and then melee weapons... NOT 2 handers... as you cannot hold a cb pistol and 2hander at the same time.... so thus it is to reason that if you have a brace of pistols.. regardless of make.... you do not have a melee weapon armed, but rather the pistols... since it clearly call sout firing a brace of pistols *IS* your melee attack for the first round... you are not attacking with anything else.. but in the case of the hand crossbow.... it says you can attack normally with your weapon for melee... yu are really playing fast and loose wiht the rules if you think you can fire 2 cb pistols and then switch out and use some melee weapon.... the rules for the weapon aly here....

I go back to the guy with one cb pistol and a 2hand sword... you cannot be armed with any other weapon, shield, etc... if you are using it. The issue of being able to fire the cb pistol and use the 2 hander is rendered moot by this statement. Follow that logic through with the brace of cb pistols.... how can you switch weapons while in melee.... you would have no strikable weapon when it comes to the melee round.... you had better hope that the 2 hand cbs kill your target before melee occurs.

Models fighting in hand-to-hand combat do not shoot in the shooting phase. They are far too busy fighting for their lives. Any very close range shots they are able to make using pistols are treated like close combat weapon attacks (see the Weapons & Armour section).
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 11:25

poniatowski wrote:
I am not prepared for this arguement as I just read it today....
So, like a fool.. I'll open my mouth....

Well, if you don't ask the questions, you don't get the answers! Wink

poniatowski wrote:
From memory.... doesn't it say something in the pistols part about using them in close combat... you then use the pistol like a club in melee as your weapon.... you shoot as they run up... as you cannot shoot on the move with a pistol unless you have the skill.... So... does this mean you strike as if unarmed if using 2 crossbow pistols? as they cannot be used in melee to stike?

First of all, the rule with 'Pistols as Clubs' is a House rule. The rules for Pistols in close combat state, that you may use them once pr. close combat phase, provided they are reloaded and ready to go. Crossbow Pistols are fired before the close combat phase. They are not useable as Clubs either. Pistols can be fired after you have moved (but not run, as with all missile weapons)

poniatowski wrote:
As for the brace thing in the buying section... it just means you cannot buy them as a brace... the pistolier rules and in other places do state you can use them as a brace. They are rare and exotic.

Yeah, I suppose this would be a fair interpretation.

poniatowski wrote:
I wish I had the rules in front of me.... we had this discussion years ago... the net was.. you can use a brace of crossbow pistols and fire them as you are charged but in combat you were left with nothing to strike with as crossbow pistols cannot be used like clubs in melee like dueling or regular pistols.... something like that...

As I mentioned before, Crossbow Pistols are fired before the close combat, meaning that you can still fight your close combat as you normally would.

poniatowski wrote:
Also... as an American.. I have ot say this upfront... we play to win and consistantly misinterpret rules all of the time to read in our favor.... The English write what you can do.. not what you cannot and it is understood, while Americans play it like this.... "the rules don't say I can;t do it.... so I must be able to....

That has been a very hard obstacle to cross here in America..... In England they have signe that say "walk" in America they need signs to tell you "don't walk"..... it is a culture thing.

So, what I am saying is.. the English has a very different statement of "the spirit of the game".

I see, that's actually interesting. Definitely something to keep in mind, when looking at rule interpretations!

Need to go now, but we can carry on from here I suppose! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 13:42

Cool... well.. I iwll have lots of questions as it has been a while since I have played and I know when we start, the group will be argueing everything again.

So now, I have ot say i agree wiht everything, although I am stil a littl eleery about being able to fire a brace of cross bow pistols pre-combat and then being able to use your regular weapon.

The rules have a lot to be interpreted. I iwl see if Rick will answer any questions. he is still pretty cool about answering old GW questions on games he worked on.

Yes, as an American, I am not intending to dis myself or make us look bad.. but have you ever played in a tourney against an American? If a rule can be twisted or broken or manipulated or accidentally misinterpreted.... we will do it.... we are indeed beardy....

My favorite example is the Chaos lords.... back in the day.. you would create an army and you could then field a chaos lord.. well, somewhere it didn't say 0-1 or limit of one.... so Americans would take multiple different lords.... when asked about it the "Englishmen".. Rick and the other devs for WHFB would make the joke.... the rules tell you what you can do.... not what you cannot do.. if the rules doesn't say you can, then assume that you cannot..... Talking to some of thes eguys when they came to America with the release of LOTR skirmish was a hoot, especially after drinking.... it all comes down to perception and what you agree upon as a group in the end.

The Brits just write their rules in a very gentlemanly way.... AMericans will tweist and squeeze and are very loose with rule interpretation. In England, they play against chaps and chums and such.. In america we play against... MORTAL ENEMIES.... and MUST WIN at all costs.... again, to be clear.. I am American through and through and it was a harsh wake up call when I realized how badly we can interpret a simple rule. we overhtink everything.

lol!

Cheers!.. err.. I mean Howdy y'all Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 17:18

Having lived in both England and America I can tell you both for a fact that neither country has a monopoly on competitive players, SOTG players /spit and WAAC players /spit (he said, with complete neutrality and lack of bias). Granted, there is a slight leaning towards WAAC in the US, but not all that much and it varies more by where you are and who you are playing. Some suburbs are WAAC and some less so. Depends on who got the game first and who they taught to play and how to play.

I have seen equal amounts of disgust and confusion when a competitive group allows a SOTG player to play with them and vice-versa.

For what it is worth, it doesn't take a lot to shock the devs. For many *many* years their version of play-testing was to have some games with mates from the pub. Granted, sometimes they had a *lot* of games, but still only with mates. Hell, when they started expanding and hired a few more people from out-side of their circle they were e.g. horrified to learn that in Bloodbowl some people will foul *every turn they are allowed* instead of only a few cinematic or particularly grudgy times.

In any case, I say again, in my group we have allowed braces of crossbow pistols and the double-shot before melee for years and it hasn't made things unfun for either side. YMMV.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 17:43

Quote :
but I found the rules online.. but they seemto be the expanded??? rules.. I am not sure if this is fan made, but it seems to be more of a compilation of all of the rules belnded together....
Yes that horror is fanmade or fan at least enabled. Someone took the time to compile a lot of Mordheim rules. That was a good thing. Then he or she or they decided to share their house rules. But not in a separate document. So sometimes you have the rules as GW wrote them and sometimes you have somebodies version of what GW wrote and sometimes you have what Brad thought was cool. That is a bad thing.

The last updated version of what GW wrote and published can be found here--
https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=02B7C1D22EA7D959&id=2B7C1D22EA7D959%21153&authkey=%21AByFcnV1qMjZdzg

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