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Aipha
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PostSubject: Crossbow Pistols   Tue 9 Sep 2014 - 5:28

Well, I played some Witch Hunters a few days ago and explored the great Lustria with them. However, something came up, as we have never really used Crossbow Pistols before.

There is no reloading rules, as with other pistols, which I suppose is mighty fine, but I looked through some threads, that came to some of the same conclusions as we did:

1. Crossbow Pistols does not have to be reloaded, meaning that you can fire 2 shots in your own Shooting phase (with Pistolier), get charged by an opponent, fire 2 shots in their close combat phase and then shoot your opponent once again with 2 shots, after you've taken him down in close combat. You can always fire the 2 shots in close combat, but not in the Shooting phase, unless you have Pistolier.
2. You can use a double-handed weapon after your shots, but you will still have to roll to hit as normal.
3. Elven Cloaks works against the weapon, but there's no other modifiers except the -2 BS and that.
4. They strike before 'strike first' skills and items?! (Lightning Reflexes & Spears)

Info taken from:

Braces of Crossbow Pistols
How to use a Crossbow Pistol ?

Anyone who can confirm/argue against this? I find it pretty powerful on a Druchii warband with BS7, Leap & Dark Venom.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Tue 9 Sep 2014 - 8:37

Pistolier only works in Shooting Phase.
So the Crossbow pistol fires twice in your shooting phase, during which you are not engaged in close combat.

Once you get engaged in close combat, you can fire once before all attacks, at an additional -2BS. So if you charged, you get -1 for moving and if it's a large target you get +1 to hit.

You cannot use Crossbow Pistols IN close combat, the way you can a black powder pistol.

You can use a double-handed weapon after your shots, rolling to hit as normal.

So, in conclusion
1. Nope
2. Yup
3. Nope
4. Yup

The shots happen before combat starts, so they do strike first before Lightning Reflexes and spears.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Tue 9 Sep 2014 - 19:40

Quote :
You cannot use Crossbow Pistols IN close combat, the way you can a black powder pistol.

Interesting point thumbsup

#3. The actual wording of the rule is quoted in both threads cited above. The word "extra" seems pretty telling. If the -2 to hit is "extra" then it must be in addition to something, which would seem to include movement (if charging) or Large Target rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 8:38

MrDancyPants wrote:
Pistolier only works in Shooting Phase.
So the Crossbow pistol fires twice in your shooting phase, during which you are not engaged in close combat.

Yes, I am aware of that, but nothing in the rules say anything about them having to reload at any point, nor so they say that you can only fire 1 of them 'right before close combat'

MrDancyPants wrote:
Once you get engaged in close combat, you can fire once before all attacks, at an additional -2BS. So if you charged, you get -1 for moving and if it's a large target you get +1 to hit.

I can somewhat agree with the +1/-1 modifier.

MrDancyPants wrote:
You cannot use Crossbow Pistols IN close combat, the way you can a black powder pistol.

I agree that you cannot use them the same way as other Pistols, but they are still fired during yours or your opponent's close combat phase. Or basically right before. But would you argue it was in the shooting phase?
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 9:44

Aipha wrote:

Yes, I am aware of that, but nothing in the rules say anything about them having to reload at any point, nor so they say that you can only fire 1 of them 'right before close combat'
They don't have the reload rule that pistols do. But then, that's not why you can't shoot them in the shooting phase and then again in the close combat phase. The reason you can't shoot in shooting and then again in close combat, is because if you charge/get charged, that happens before shooting. Models that are engaged in close combat can't shoot in the shooting phase. Models that shoot in the shooting phase are not engaged in close combat.

So you only get to shoot in one of those phases because you'll never be in a position where you're shooting AND engaged in close combat.
Aipha wrote:

I agree that you cannot use them the same way as other Pistols, but they are still fired during yours or your opponent's close combat phase. Or basically right before. But would you argue it was in the shooting phase?

No, it's not in the shooting phase. It's in the Close Combat phase, before blows are struck, and it uses Ballistic Skill to hit. It's the close combat phase, but unlike blackpowder pistols, it can't be parried, doesn't count as an extra attack, and doesn't use Weapon Skill.

So Pistolier doesn't work with Crossbow Pistols in the Close Combat shot. As for firing two pistols, since they don't come in a brace, I'm not sure the rules on that. In the shooting phase, you can only shoot with one weapon, so I would imagine that would likely hold over here.

Generally, since rules are permissive, if it doesn't explicitly say that you can do something, then you can't do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 10:20

MrDancyPants wrote:
They don't have the reload rule that pistols do. But then, that's not why you can't shoot them in the shooting phase and then again in the close combat phase. The reason you can't shoot in shooting and then again in close combat, is because if you charge/get charged, that happens before shooting. Models that are engaged in close combat can't shoot in the shooting phase. Models that shoot in the shooting phase are not engaged in close combat.
So you only get to shoot in one of those phases because you'll never be in a position where you're shooting AND engaged in close combat.

Well, picture this scenario:
My dude with a Brace of Crossbow Pistols shoots you once or twice in my Shooting Phase.
Then you charge him in your Movement Phase. As Crossbow Pistols does not have any reloading rules (same goes for normal Crossbows), both my Crossbow Pistols are ready to shoot you again, which they will do in your Close Combat Phase.
Let's pretend I take whoever charged me down, and put him OOA with my injury roll.
Then my Crossbow Pistols are once again ready in my Shooting Phase, or my Close Combat Phase; depending on whether I charged you or shot you.

I don't know if we still disagree on this? Because this is what I have said the whole time.

Aipha wrote:
I agree that you cannot use them the same way as other Pistols, but they are still fired during yours or your opponent's close combat phase. Or basically right before. But would you argue it was in the shooting phase?

MrDancyPants wrote:
No, it's not in the shooting phase. It's in the Close Combat phase, before blows are struck, and it uses Ballistic Skill to hit. It's the close combat phase, but unlike blackpowder pistols, it can't be parried, doesn't count as an extra attack, and doesn't use Weapon Skill.

Completely agree. Don't know what the problem was in our understanding of each other.

MrDancyPants wrote:
So Pistolier doesn't work with Crossbow Pistols in the Close Combat shot.

Once again, I agree. But Pistolier is not required for Crossbow Pistols in the Close Combat phase to fire two shots; the same goes with other Pistols, where you can fire both Pistols in your Brace in the same round of combat without any particular skill.

MrDancyPants wrote:
As for firing two pistols, since they don't come in a brace, I'm not sure the rules on that. In the shooting phase, you can only shoot with one weapon, so I would imagine that would likely hold over here.

There's no rules about 'no two shots from two weapons' in the Close Combat Phase; only the Shooting Phase. The relevant phrases can be found in one of the two links I posted (if not both).

MrDancyPants wrote:
Generally, since rules are permissive, if it doesn't explicitly say that you can do something, then you can't do it.

But here the rules says quite clear what a Crossbow Pistol does, and in this case, if you have two, what both of them does:

Mordheim Rulebook p. 31 wrote:
Shoot in hand-to-hand combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use model’s Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks.

There is only one reasonable explanation to why you wouldn't be able to shoot two in Close Combat, as far as I can see, which is that it was never intended for models to carry more than one. However, the rules applying to Pistols say, that you may have a Brace of them. Also, the skill Pistolier undermines this, by mentioning Crossbow Pistols specifically.[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 11:54

No where in the rules does it say you can fire two different weapons in the same shooting phase. And only Pistols and Dueling Pistols say that you can fire a brace in close combat. Crossbow pistols also do not come in a brace or have the option of a brace of Crossbow Pistols. It's just not a thing.

By using the argument "There's nothing that says I can't shoot it twice in the combat phase" I can also say "There's nothing that says I can't fire it 30 times in the combat phase. Guess you're taking 30 shots in the combat phase."

There is, however, a rule that says a model armed with a crossbow pistol gets ONE attack that strikes before blows are landed. One attack is what you get.

The rules are permissive, they say what you can do. If they don't say you can, then you can't. If the rules don't say you can take two shots, then you can't. The rules say you get one, and do not say that they stack. So you get one shot and it doesn't stack for having multiple crossbow pistols.

The rules are pretty clear on this, really. It only gets muddy if you're trying to do things that the rules don't talk about.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 18:50

MrDancyPants wrote:
There is, however, a rule that says a model armed with a crossbow pistol gets ONE attack that strikes before blows are landed. One attack is what you get.
The rules for crossbow pistols do not say you only get one attack and the ability to have them in a Brace is mentioned in the Pistoleer skill (make of that what you will). What they say is that if you *have* a crossbow pistol, you can shoot it in the first round of close combat (admittedly it does say you can only shoot the crossbow pistol once, but I don't think anyone is disputing that) . So there *is* a rule saying you can shoot it in the close combat phase, and there is *no* rule saying you can't shoot more than one, if you are equipped with one. That is how permissive rules work, as you say. If there *is* a rule saying you can do it and there *isn't* a rule saying you can't, then you can do it and you shouldn't just make stuff up about what you can't do. Well, not without talking to the rest of your group first anyway. House rules FTW Very Happy.

That being said, it has been more than one occasion where people in our group (myself very definitely included) where we haven't realised we were inventing a rule or restriction until we had gone back and carefully read the rule book to see what is there and what is only in our heads.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 4:49

Phew. This is a bit tiring; as I get the feeling that you haven’t read the two posts I linked to, prior to your responses. I don’t see a lot of arguing against the claim, that you may equip a Brace of Crossbow Pistols, as you may with any kind of other Pistol, except that ‘it’s just not a thing’. So, I suggest we both quote the rules a bit more, if this discussion should bring any real answers.

Lord 0, thank you for contributing, and for saying what I wanted to say, when I was frustrated about not being heard correctly.

My argument is not that “there is nothing that says I can’t do it, so I can do it”. I understand the rules of Mordheim quite well, though they are so poorly written at some times, that I tend to use this forum, where there is room for discussion along with interpretation.

So, with that in mind, let me list what we know of the rules for Crossbow Pistols:

Mordheim Rulebook p. 30 wrote:
Crossbow Pistol
Maximum Range:10"; Strength: 4; Special Rule: Shoot in hand-to-hand combat
SPECIAL RULE
Shoot in hand-to-hand combat: A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat and this shot is always resolved first, before any blows are struck. This shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty. Use model’s Ballistic Skill to see whether it hits or not. This bonus attack is in addition to any close combat weapon attacks.

This indicates something we both agree on. If you have a Crossbow Pistol, you may fire it in the first round of the Close Combat Phase, before any other blows are struck. So far so good.

So, one of the problems is that “this shot has an extra -2 to hit penalty”. As I said, I could accept if charging/Large Target/Elven Cloak affects this and it would make sense, so I don’t know if there’s any further discussion needed here. However, the -2 penalty could be for various reasons; shooting while preparing to draw weapons, cover, long distance (most likely the shot is really made while you are charging/while your opponent is charging and not when you’re at him or he’s at you), etc. Anyway, not my biggest concern.

The next thing we know is:

”Mordheim Rulebook p. 83” wrote:
Pistolier.
The warrior is an expert at using all kinds of pistols. If he is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols), he may fire twice in the Shooting phase (though note that normal reloading rules apply).

This is the main part of the ‘Brace of Crossbow Pistols’ argument. If the warrior is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols), he may fire twice in the shooting phase. So what this could mean is that you may be equipped with a Brace of Crossbow Pistols, since it mentions that you may ‘equip a brace of pistols of any type, including crossbow pistols’.

There is however another interpretation of this, which I don’t think anyone has come up with yet; it might be that they refer to a warrior having a Pistol/Duelling Pistol/Warplock Pistol along with a Crossbow Pistol, and thus giving a ‘Brace of Pistols’, consisting of two types. I don’t know if this will hold up though, as a ‘Brace of Pistols’ normally consist of the same type of Pistol. Another argument in favor of this interpretation, is proposed in another thread. If you look at the equipment list, you will see the following:

Mordheim Rulebook p. 104 wrote:
Crossbow Pistol 35 gc Rare 9
Duelling Pistol/brace 30 gc/60 gc Rare 10
Pistol/brace 15 gc/30 gc Rare 8

As is seen, the other types of Pistols have the ‘Brace Price’ as well as the price for one. It’s interesting that it has been left out for Crossbow Pistols, except if you were only meant to have one. However, the question is what ‘brace’ refers to. It’s a weird way to mention in the Pistolier skill, that you may be equipped with one kind of Pistols along with another kind, i.e. a Pistol and a Crossbow Pistol, by saying it in the way they did. I believe we need to uncover what they mean by ‘brace’:

”Mordheim Rulebook p. 31” wrote:
Pistol
If you have a brace of pistols (ie, two)

So what does this mean? Two of the same kind, or just two, perhaps of different kind? It is important to note, that this phrase is taken from the ‘Pistol’ item, and could thus refer to both ‘a Brace of Pistols’ and ‘a Brace of any kinds of pistols combined’. It is too unclear to me what the real point is, as it is a weird place to mention such things (and so is under the Pistolier skill!)

There should really have been some clearer rules about this in a specific section for pistols and not hidden inside different equipment rules and skills. But I guess we all know by now, that these rules are at best deficient.

I hope to see some more quotes from the rulebook in future posts, as well as some comments on these thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 6:44

There really are only two benefits to a brace of pistols, outside the Pistolier skill. Firing each turn (as you would only fire every other turn with just one) and using both in the first round of combat to get Strength 4 attacks.

I think the reason for the mention of two crossbow pistols as a "brace" is because that IS the technical term for having two pistols.

Also, outside of the Pistolier skill, there's no reason to have two Crossbow pistols, as you can normally only ever fire one, whenever you fire it (shooting or HtH). Pistolier skills are the only time there is a benefit to having two Crossbow pistols, which is probably why they are never listed as a "brace" option.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 8:29

Alright, now I am confused. First you say this:

MrDancyPants wrote:
No where in the rules does it say you can fire two different weapons in the same shooting phase. And only Pistols and Dueling Pistols say that you can fire a brace in close combat. Crossbow pistols also do not come in a brace or have the option of a brace of Crossbow Pistols. It's just not a thing.

Then you say:

MrDancyPants wrote:
I think the reason for the mention of two crossbow pistols as a "brace" is because that IS the technical term for having two pistols.

Also, outside of the Pistolier skill, there's no reason to have two Crossbow pistols, as you can normally only ever fire one, whenever you fire it (shooting or HtH). Pistolier skills are the only time there is a benefit to having two Crossbow pistols, which is probably why they are never listed as a "brace" option.

So now you say, that you can in fact have two, and it is a thing?

And yes, you might say that there's no benefit having two, especially because there's no reloading rules for Crossbow Pistols, but that just makes two of them even better with Pistolier, compared to pistols, where you will still have to reload one, after having fired two in the previous round.

And I'd still argue, that I don't see anywhere it says, that you cannot use both in Close Combat with the current Mordheim Shooting & Close Combat rules (please do not go into the permissive discussion again now). The rules for each Crossbow Pistol in the game simply says, that if you have one, you may fire one, but this could easily be interpretated as each one of them having that special rule, meaning that if you have two of them, you may make use of both their identical special rules in the Close Combat Phase. And this would then be the case, if you are allowed to carry a brace of them, as the rules would indicate.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 8:51

There's one vague reference to a brace of crossbow pistols as a brief footnote on a rule that largely applies to every other pistol but the crossbow pistol. That's all there is. There is no mention of a "brace of crossbow pistols" or purchasing them as a brace anywhere else in the entire game. So, sure, if you want to hang on to that little bit, go for it.

The only way you can interpret "A model armed with a crossbow pistol may shoot it in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat" as "A model armed with crossbow pistols may shoot each one in the first round of a hand-to-hand combat" is if you actually change the language in the book. The only way you can fire more than one weapon at a time in the game is in the shooting phase with the Pistolier skill. There is no other point where the rules say that you can.

I don't know why you have trouble with the concept of a permissive rule set, because that's what all the Games Workshop rules are. When I level up, if I get "skill" the rules say I choose a skill. Nothing in the rules state that I can't take 4 skills. It says what I CAN do, not what I CAN'T do. That's what permissive rules do. It says if you have one crossbow pistol, you can shoot it. It does not say that, if you have two, you can shoot both. On the other hand, blackpowder pistols SPECIFICALLY say that if you have two, you can use them both. Because it's a permissive rule set that tells you what you can do, not what you can't do.

In order to be a rule set that tells you everything that you can't do, it would be infinitely bigger to be able to cover every BS rule that people try to make up and get away with before hand, and it would still probably miss something.

It has to say that you can do it in order for you to be able to do it. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't. The same with the Sword of Rezhebel and the orc spell, Clubba. Sword of Rezhebel says (though in the flavor text) that it creates a sword. This sword, however, does not have Parry because it doesn't say it has Parry. Clubba, on the other hand, specifically says it creates a club that works like a normal club (so it has Concussion). See? It tells you what you CAN do, not what you CAN'T do.

You can't fire two crossbow pistols, regardless of how many you have, just because you have two and the rules say you can shoot one if you have one. They just don't say that you can.

This shouldn't even be a question. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't. That's how it works.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 9:16

MrDancyPants. You don't gain much from discussing without seeing anything from a different perspective. I have discussed countless of things with countless of people in different games and settings, and never once has that made me back out of a discussion, but this is simply too much. You might be right, but you fail to explain why, by not choosing to refer to any concrete rules at any point, but just loosely refer to 'the rules we all know', interpreted by you. I even try to understand what you're saying even better, by explaining the things you say with examples from the rules. I really feel as though I am wasting my time. Since my time is a lot more precious than discussing with a person, who can only see his way, I am going to close this conversation from my side. I will refrain from responding to any further insults about me asking questions that shouldn't even be asked. We are not in a dictatorship state, and the single most important thing we humans can do, is keep asking questions no matter how many times we've been told the same answer, and remain unconvinced. Good day.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 9:45

I've looked at it from a different perspective. The problem is that the other perspective is wrong. I pointed specifically at the rules that we have. I quoted them exactly. No interpretation at all.

On the other hand, you can't seem to cite a single rule that says you can use two crossbow pistols in the close combat phase. The best you have is a rule where you're making up new wordings to allow you to do it. I've not once insulted you or stated that you shouldn't ask questions. I've not attacked you personally in any way. I'm not saying that this question shouldn't be asked, I'm saying that it shouldn't even have to be a question because it's a pretty obvious thing. I've answered each of your questions to the best of my ability, citing the rules involved, and citing other rules that are similarly written. It just seems like you're more upset that the conclusion reached by following the rules isn't the one you were looking for. You haven't given me any kind of an answer and, in our discussion, you told me to basically ignore the way the rules are written, which makes no sense. Keep in mind, your ENTIRE argument has simply been "The rules don't say I can't." That's universally a losing position when discussing rules in a permissive rule set. That's the equivalent of "Not saying 'no' is as good as saying 'yes'."

You don't gain much from discussing without seeing anything from a different perspective.

I'm sorry, but firing two crossbows in the close combat phase, with or without Pistolier, simply isn't allowed in the official rule set. If you want to house rule it, go for it. I certainly couldn't and wouldn't stop you. But as the rules are written, it's not a thing.

EDIT: In re-reading this conversation, something you mentioned struck me as specifically relevant.

Aipha wrote:

Once again, I agree. But Pistolier is not required for Crossbow Pistols in the Close Combat phase to fire two shots; the same goes with other Pistols, where you can fire both Pistols in your Brace in the same round of combat without any particular skill.

You mention that blackpowder pistols can be used as a brace in close combat without any skills. This is correct, but it's not because the rules don't say you can't, it's because the rules specifically state that you can. It's not that the rules say "If you have a pistol, you can use it for one attack in close combat" and then we infer or assume that it extends to two pistols as well. The rules very specifically state, for Blackpowder Pistols and Dueling Pistols, that you can use both in close combat. This specification is very much lacking in the Crossbow Pistol rules.

Similarly, just as "Parry" is not in the Sword of Rezhebel rules, the Nicodemus FAQ states that he cannot Parry with it because it's not actually in the rules for the spell, despite the spell being described as a sword.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 17:32

Mr. DancyPants: "This shouldn't even be a question. If it doesn't say you can, then you can't. That's how it works."

I would think that would be a restrictive rule set (you cannot do it unless given explicit permission to do so) rather than a permissive one.  And I don't recall anywhere the authors making a statement that this interpretation is "how it works".

A single crossbow pistol grants the +1 special attack in HtH.  You can carry two of them.  Both points are documented in the rules.  Branching from there we have two interpretations:

(1) Since each pistol has that special rule, and you can carry two, than both can perform their special function in HtH.  

(2) Since with black powder pistols it explicitly states that their (different) special rule for use in HtH does double up, the absence of such a statement with crossbow pistols means they cannot.

Neither position is unreasonable.  Neither position is a house rule (at least in the definition I have for HRs, which = a change to the rules).  Both are attempts to address a contingency not referenced in the rules (and in fairness to GW, no rule set can address every possible contingency; although Task Force Games tried with Star Fleet Battles back in the day, the result of which was a rule set that became increasingly unplayable.  But I digress).  There is certainly nothing in the rules that contradicts Aipha's  position.  MrDancyPants is arguing they cannot both fire because of something not in the rules.   On the whole, I am more comfortable with Aipha's approach (we have this rule and that rule, and since nowhere does it say these two rules cannot work together, they do) than MrDancyPants's approach that if something is not specifically allowed, you absolutely cannot do it.  That general approach, if consistently applied, would cause some really bizarre conclusions.  For example.

I have a mace.  It has the concussion rule.  In my other hand, I have another mace.  It has the concussion rule.  I am specifically allowed to use both in HtH.  But only one of my maces grants me the concussion rule because nowhere do the rules specifically say if I use two maces they both give me the concussion rule.  

Mind you, I think having two crossbow pistols and allowing both to simultaneously use the special rule in HtH is pretty powerful, so I will suggest to our group that if you have two of the suckers you can only use both in HtH if you have the Pistolier skill.  Which is definitely a house rule, regardless whether Aipha's or MrDancyPants's interpretation is the correct one.


Last edited by mweaver on Sun 14 Sep 2014 - 8:50; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 18:02

For what it is worth, in my group we use the 'you can shoot both crossbow pistols in close combat' thing and it hasn't made things unfun.

Off the top of my head I can't remember how much of this is RAW and how much is house-rules, but for us the main distinction of a brace of pistols is that it allows two pistols to take up only one ranged slot. We do allow Pistoleer to be used for pistols of different types. The downside of not being able to have a long ranged weapon seems to be a decent balance to not having to use the same pistol.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 18:51

Lord O: For what it is worth, in my group we use the 'you can shoot both crossbow pistols in close combat' thing and it hasn't made things unfun.

I was breaking one of my own gaming rules: never make a house rule for something until you have played it as written and are sure you don't like it. In all my Mordheiming years, none of us have ever used CBPs. But recently my promoted elf henchie acquired one. If she ever scares up another one (or, more likely, sweet talks one of her Marienburger buddies to find her one) we will play allowing both to fire w/o requiring Pistolier, and see how it works. The way I roll, no one is going to think it is too powerful...

Lord O: Off the top of my head I can't remember how much of this is RAW and how much is house-rules, but for us the main distinction of a brace of pistols is that it allows two pistols to take up only one ranged slot.

I think is an official rule... although at the moment I cannot find it.

Lord O: We do allow Pistoleer to be used for pistols of different types. The downside of not being able to have a long ranged weapon seems to be a decent balance to not having to use the same pistol.

We too have adopted this house rule. Just too sensible to argue otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 19:02

mweaver wrote:
For example.

I have a mace. It has the concussion rule. In my other hand, I have another mace. It has the concussion rule. I am specifically allowed to use both in HtH. But only one of my maces grants me the concussion rule because nowhere do the rules specifically say if I use two maces they both give me the concussion rule.

rulebook wrote:
When using a hammer, club or mace, a roll of
2-4 is treated as stunned when rolling to see the
extent of a model’s injuries.

That's not similar at all. Something similar would be "When using a mace, one attack treats an injury roll of 2-4 as stunned" and then claiming two maces allow two attacks to stun on 2-4.

A brace of pistols is considered a single missile weapon, for the purpose of equipping a character. However, the only pistols offered as a brace are pistols, dueling pistols, and warplock pistols. Not once, outside of the Pistolier skill, are crossbow pistols used in the same sentence as the word "brace". For pistolier, you can use it if you're armed with two crossbow pistols as they are two pistols, but nothing else in the rules make any mention of two crossbow pistols operating as a single missile weapon.

Everything in the Crossbow Pistol's wording is singular. The only rule that talks about the ability to use two Crossbow Pistols for anything is Pistolier, which only talks about shooting in the shooting phase, when a person has time to line up a target and fire.

Nothing talks about snap-firing at target that is rushing towards you or that you are rushing towards. The -2 BS penalty is because either the target is charging at you with the intent to kill or you're charging at them with the intent to kill.

Also, a permissive rule set is a rule set that tells you what you can do. For example, it tells me that I can move 4 inches if my Movement stat is 4. But, nothing in the rules say that I can't move 12 inches. If there was something that said I couldn't move 12 inches, but didn't say I couldn't move 13 inches, could I then move 13 inches since the rules don't say I can't?

The rules also say that my character may carry a (singular) shield. It does not, however, say that I can't carry 6 shields for a 1+ armor save. Of course not, because the rules don't say I can.

And since they don't say that I can, I can't. That is a permissive rule set.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 20:36

You are missing the point.  By your argument ("If it doesn't say you can, then you can't. That's how it works.") the maces cannot both have the concussion rule since the rules do not say they can.  So they can't.  According to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 21:06

Um... no, not according to me. That's not even remotely what I'm saying at all. First off, the rules explicitly say that, if armed with two weapons, you can make your attacks with one weapon and then get another attack with the second weapon. The Concussion rule states "When using a hammer, club or mace, a roll of 2-4 is treated as stunned when rolling to see the extent of a model’s injuries." So here you have the rules specifically saying that I can make an extra attack with the second weapon. If it's the same weapon, it's treated as just one extra attack. If it's a different weapon then it's one attack with that other weapon.

The rules specifically allow me to make two concussion attacks if I have a second club. Because they say I can.

On the other hand, the rules are quite clear that shooting weapons get one shot and you can only shoot with one unless you have a skill that says otherwise. The Crossbow Pistol quite clearly states that if you are armed with a Crossbow Pistol, then you get to fire it once at the start of combat (so it works exactly like it does in the shooting phase, only with negative modifiers and against the person you're in combat with. It makes no mention of being able to attack with two crossbow pistols, and no where does it state that two crossbow pistols count as a single missile weapon.

I'm sorry, but putting words into my mouth and trying to misrepresent my argument just won't work. Like I said, if he wants to house-rule it, go for it. But the rules, as they are written, simply don't support it.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 21:28

Quoting you is putting words in your mouth?

I think I have reached the same conclusion as Aipha.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 21:51

You're not quoting me. I didn't bring up clubs, you did. Nothing you said is quoting me. I haven't said anything like what you're attributing to me. You're saying "by your logic" and then saying something that isn't anywhere near what I'm saying.

That's just dishonest.

What, exactly, were you looking to bring to this conversation? You've simply misrepresented my position, set up a straw man argument, argued against that, and then act like I'm the inflexible one. I'm quoting rules. That's all I'm doing. I'm just quoting the rules. I don't know what conclusions you've reached, or what caused you to reach them, but it's got nothing to do with me.

I've not done or said anything personal against anyone in this thread. I simply quoted the rules and answered the questions that were posed in the original post, and then expanded on my reasoning with the backing of what the rules say.

I've also stated that there's absolutely nothing wrong with house-ruling the rules to allow for shooting two Crossbow Pistols in the Combat phase. I don't have a problem with that at all.

I don't know why you're trying to make this personal, but your beef is with the rules as they are written, not with me.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Sun 14 Sep 2014 - 3:25

Don't be mad at each other! I think this discussion at some time drifted into hacking at each other with the respective own opinion.
I just want to emphasize one point MrDancyPants made before, which - at least for me as i am aware of this whole thingy - represents the solution:

The rules state that "During your warband’s shooting phase each of your
warriors may shoot once with one of his weapons." (bold markings made by me)

Nobody is allowed to use 2 crossbow pistols at once because they are treated like 2 weapons, the only exceptions being pistols and duelling pistols as only these things can be used as a brace (therefore 2 weapons count as One).

Even if the skill Pistolier says "If he is equipped with a brace of pistols of any type (including crossbow pistols),[...]" no warband equipment list allows this case (brace of CBP)...

Are these rules contradictory? - Yes
Is there an intent in the skill pistolier regarding CBP? - Supposedly
Does anyone know the skill authors intention? - No

In the end, i would stick to the basic shooting/equipment rules instead to a special case (the skill), everything else should be a house rule...
And now, everybody remembers that we all love this game Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Sun 14 Sep 2014 - 15:57

Very well put.
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PostSubject: Re: Crossbow Pistols   Fri 23 Jan 2015 - 4:34

New information?

From the 2005 FAQ:

Q: What is a ‘brace’ of pistols?
A: A brace of pistols is two pistols of the same type, eg, two duelling pistols, two crossbow pistols, etc.
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