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 Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster

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Aipha
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PostSubject: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 6 Sep 2014 - 19:54

Hello everyone!

If youíre looking to start a warband consisting of stunties, youíve come to the right place. In this guide I will go through the critical phase of giving your warband the best start possible; this requires that you are familiar with the basic rules of the game, along with the warbandís special rules. This guide is intended for the purpose of helping you create a warband, that will quickly let you outlive your opponentís fragile Heroes. There is no one way to this, which is why I will give you several good examples of how you can start your warband, so that you may choose and adjust one to exactly your needs. Bear in mind, that these warband examples are intended for medium to long campaigning and playing, meaning that youíre probably better off looking somewhere else, if youíre going to play a one-shot.

Two things Iíd like to note that applies to all Dwarf Treasure Hunters starting warbands are:

The Noble: Should always be equipped with the best defensive equipment possible; this being a Dwarf Axe, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet. The reason for this is simply that if you lose him early, youíll be on 3 Heroes, compared to the 5 in most other warbands. Itís already hard enough to be on 4 Heroes.

Clansmen over Thunderers: Iíd always start with minimum one Clansman, as they make the best Heroes, both melee and ranged. A Clansman with Strength/Special (which I would recommend) or Shooting/Special (also my recommendation) is stronger than a Thunderer with the same skill sets if you look at it in a broader perspective. A Clansman have access to both Double-handed Weapons & Dwarf Axes, while a Thunderer would need the Combat table along with the Weapons Training skill to get access to those, meaning that his potential is less. Same principle applies to a shooty Clansman compared to a shooty Thunderer. If you have a Thunderer Hero, he has access to Crossbows and Handguns. A Clansman needs a skill to pick shooty weapons (except Pistols), but this means that he can access a variety of ranged weapons (Iíd usually pick a Crossbow along with a Hunting Rifle). On top of that, the Clansman can still access Dwarf Axes (which can be buffed with his Special table giving him access to Master of Blades) or Double-handed Weapons, which can make him a hard-hitting shooty Hero (Strength/Shooting is also a possibility for Dwarves, I just think the Special table is one of the best). A thanks to Lord 0 for bringing me on this path.

With that in mind, I present to you my first and favorite warband example:

Noble
Dwarf Axe, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet
Why: Your Noble is your leader, meaning that if he dies, thereís no going back. Until he gets Extra Tough or someone else comes along to take his place, you need to take good care of him. The Gromril Armour is simply too cheap to pass up on, and will hopefully deter your opponent from targeting him.

Engineer
Gromril Hammer, Dagger & Helmet
Why: I know youíre wondering why he doesnít have a Crossbow. I am sorry to say, but heís just not that good yet. Unless youíre playing with minimum terrain, or against very shooty warbands, Iíd rather have him kill things in melee, than at range, where he could barely hit the backside of an Ogre. Also, a Crossbow is Move or Fire, meaning that playing against a melee warband hiding and closing in on you, will leave him useless, as he will not be able to fire a single shot. Remember to buy Lanterns later on! The Gromril Hammer is simply for show, and itís quite cheap to begin with, giving it Axe + Mace rules in one weapon for 1gc more than the weapons would cost if you had to buy both.

2xDwarf Troll Slayers
Dwarf Axe & Dwarf Axe
Why: First of all, thatís all he can get. Second, itís the best save he can get as of this moment. Look at his stats; they are the same as those of a Clansman/Thunderer, meaning that he needs all the defense he can get, if you donít want him killed as the first one. This is why I also usually recommend only having one Slayer to begin with, as they are quite squishy without their armour.

2xClansman
Dagger
Why: I am sorry, but these are the guys you sacrifice when the going gets tough. If there has to be some, better that itís a Henchman than a Hero. After the first battle, one of them might die, but the other might survive and become a Hero, due to you hopefully being the underdog.

Sum up of the warband
Heroes: 4
Henchmen: 2
Total: 6 (for better Wyrdstone sale and routing on 2 OOA)
Rating: 76
Gold remaining: 1

Finishing comments
This warband could both win and lose. The moment both your Clansmen are dead, Iíd advise routing. You will have a lack of shooting, meaning that this is not optimal against a very shooty warband, but should fare well against starting melee warbands. Not to worry, youíll catch up eventually. On to the next suggestion:

Noble
Dwarf Axe, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet
Why: Once again, the Noble must still be protected. He is the last you should lose.

Engineer
Dagger
Why: Your Engineer will have his time. Right now he needs to survive the first battle, get some skills, and then he can have his Gromril Armour and Crossbow.

Dwarf Troll Slayer
Dagger
Why: This warband only has one Slayer, as you will need a number of 4; and your sacrificed warrior should not be a Hero. He wonít enter combat, so he wonít be needing any weapons; theyíre safer in the stash.

Clansman
Dagger
Why: Once again, to win in the long end, one must make sacrifices.

Sum up of the warband
Heroes: 3
Henchmen: 1
Total: 4 (to allow you to rout after the Clansman is dead)
Rating: 58
Gold remaining: 5
Items in stash: 2xGromril Armour, 1xDwarf Axe

Finishing comments
A rating of 58 should surely be able to gain you underdog against a lot of warbands. If not, then this wonít work. This is definitely a slow start, but should save you quite a lot in the long run. Youíve already saved 225gc in Gromril Armours, which you will be needing at one point. If your Clansman survive, you have the chance of a Lads Hero after first game, and your Engineer will gain an increase as well. This is not made for winning the first game, but with the right rolls, it might have a chance of winning the second game. If your Clansman die however, youíll have to get a new and try again with the same tactic, unless you can afford two Clansmen and a Slayer, which is highly unlikely. Try to get your hands on at least 4 Dwarf Axes for your two Slayers, before you send them to combat. On to the next warband suggestion, which is more focused on the beginning than the end:

Noble
Dwarf Axe, Brace of Pistols, Shield, Gromril Armour & Helmet
Why: Your Noble has gotten some Pistols. Simply because with BS4, he is currently your best shooter and he can even move and shoot with a decent range. Chances are that heíll be using them mostly in close combat though, which is not too shabby either.

Engineer
Hammer & Dagger
Why: Due to purchase of extra henchmen, who can actually deliver some harm to your enemy, your Engineer will be a bit useless and should probably be kept back in the beginning.

2xDwarf Troll Slayer
Dwarf Axe & Axe
Why: Your Slayers might get caught in combat (though hopefully your Clansmen will receive the charge!), which means that they need something to defend themselves. Dwarf Axes can be fairly good at that; but of course better with Master of Blades.

2xClansman
Hammer & Dagger
Why: Theyíre hire to die when things go down, but as of now, they can pack a punch as well. Maces for stunning your opponents, so that they may be easier to take out with your Heroes.

Sum up of the warband
Heroes: 4
Henchmen: 2
Total: 6
Rating: 76
Gold remaining: 0

Finishing comments
There is room for a bit adjustment in this setting. For instance, instead of the Nobleís Pistols, you could upgrade the Engineerís Hammer to a Gromril Hammer along with giving him a Crossbow. That would give you 1 extra gc in the stash. Other than that, the warband should be fit for fighting.

I hope I have helped you gain some insight into the world of warband creating. It is definitely something that can improve a warband a lot, to spend the gold right in the beginning. Of course itís a matter of preference, but sometimes you need to compromise a bit in the beginning to win in the long run. As a finishing note, Iíd like to give you a list of important things to get for your warband. Itís great to keep these in mind, as they can help you excel against your opponents:

Lucky Charms (must have for all Heroes)
Rabbitís Feet (also a must have for all Heroes)
Lanterns (on the Slayers/Noble usually)
Telescopes (especially great on the Noble, if you make him a gunman, and he has high initiative)
Venom Rings (mostly when playing against the Lustrian warbands or Skaven)
Tarot Cards (will really help your exploration, but beware of rolling 12! Invest in these early!)
Wyrdstone Pendulums (same as with Tarot Cards. Your high leadership will definitely help)
Gromril Armours (you will need at least 4 total for your warband, which is why itís great to start with 3)
Dwarf Axes (simply because theyíre the best, especially for your Slayers, as they cannot get an armour save)


Last edited by Aipha on Fri 7 Nov 2014 - 5:24; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 6 Sep 2014 - 20:28

Well done. thumbsup thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 8 Sep 2014 - 13:24

Aipha, this is excellent and adds to my knowledge.

Where would I go to find a guild to the late game? e.g. when to replace heroes with promoted henchmen, when to retire henchmen, how much gold to keep in reserve, how timidly to use heroes, how much I can expect to blatantly exploit the exploration table. I've seen several well written guilds about the start of the game, but what happens at the middle and end?
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Tue 9 Sep 2014 - 1:57

Saluksic wrote:
Aipha, this is excellent and adds to my knowledge.

Glad that some of it is new Very Happy

Saluksic wrote:
Where would I go to find a guild to the late game? e.g. when to replace heroes with promoted henchmen, when to retire henchmen, how much gold to keep in reserve, how timidly to use heroes, how much I can expect to blatantly exploit the exploration table. I've seen several well written guilds about the start of the game, but what happens at the middle and end?

Well, I can write one up, but it's mostly some general rules to follow. 'Endgame' guides are just so much more complicated, as you never know how your warband will look at 100, 200, 300 rating. Can give some suggestions, that I usually go with:

Saluksic wrote:
when to replace heroes with promoted henchmen

Your Noble can be replaced when you got a proper Slayer or Clansman melee Hero for the leader job. Unless your Noble really rolls up some great increases (which rarely happens in my experience), he is your worst Hero. He has little potential 'lategame', as his stats will not be worth his experience, and the guns I usually use him for, are no longer that great. But it's a matter of preference; sometimes I just like having him as some crazy gunman, or some wildcard with a double-handed, where I don't care if he lives or dies. In an optimal setting, you'll have him replaced ASAP though.

The other Hero I wouldn't mind replacing, is one of the Slayers. I'd say you need at least one Slayer with Monster Slayer, but two is usually overkill, depending on your opponents. The upside with Slayers is their possibility to Wound T6 Resilient beasts on 4+ with S4 and still peeling off 2 of their Armour Save (should they have any). However, unless facing several of these, I'd say one Slayer is enough, since their lack of Armour and weaker stats will gimp them later on, compared to a Clansman Hero, who can get the same with a roll of (5 5 5 5 5 5), which you can easily get with Dwarves. Your Engineer is great, due to his range buff, but if you're playing mostly melee, he's expendable as well, making your last Slayer with Monster Slayer the only real required Hero, except Lads folks.

Your ideal warband would consist of 4 Clansmen Heroes (ranged or melee), 1 Slayer and 1 Engineer, 4/5 Thunderers with Crossbows & Handguns, 3/4 Clansmen (with Dwarf Axes, Double-handed Weapons, Shields, Heavy/Gromril Armour & Helmets). You can get to this by having a Halfling Scout along with a Halfling Cookbook. Then you can add other Hired Swords as well (I'd recommend a Witch).

Saluksic wrote:
when to retire henchmen

This is something I rarely do, unless having rolled I & Ld on their first two stats. Replacing a Clansman with bad increases, if he's past 5 experience, is also a possibility. What you want to do with henchmen is of course have several groups of them, to increase Lads chance, but even when you have all Lads Heroes, you still need to do so, in order to get the best increases in the groups. When you do, you can just add more to the group by rolling (3 3 3) Prisoners.

Saluksic wrote:
how much gold to keep in reserve

I find that with Dwarves, gold is never a problem. Especially if you spend it. In the beginning you should max up on Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums to increase your exploration rolls, thus earning you all the gold you have invested in these. The sooner, the better. This also connects with your next question:

Saluksic wrote:
how timidly to use heroes

Very timidly in the beginning. When you look at their stats, and compare them to those of the Henchmen, it is clear why. When they start to get T5 and an extra Wound, you can send them into most combats, where your opponent usually won't even bother hitting them, unless of course he has a can opener, in which case you better send some double-handed-wielding henchman at him (they serve the purpose of drawing attention to themselves, and thus getting killed before your Heroes, who should mainly be using Dwarf Axes until they're a bit tougher).

Saluksic wrote:
how much I can expect to blatantly exploit the exploration table

A lot! Very Happy this is where Dwarves win most, which is why you should never be too concerned with objectives in your battles. Better let the opponent try for the objective, while you shoot him down and win the battle because he routs. In multiplayer games, you're usually arriving so late at the scene, that your opponents have already bashed each other, and you can start picking off some easy targets. This is why you should focus on keeping your Heroes safe, and rather sacrificing the potential Lads henchman, than letting someone who's already a Hero die. You really need those exploration dice. When your games go the wrong way, you go for (4 4) Straggler or (3 3 3) Prisoners, which is not at all bad. When the games are perfect, you aim for a (2 2 2 2 2 2) Hidden Treasure. This of course depends on your rolls as well, but should be easily achievable!
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Tue 9 Sep 2014 - 16:29

Just came across this thread today, it's amazingly helpful! Making a switch from elves to dwarves for my next campaign, and wasn't quite sure where to start.

Also, never ever have I considered dropping my Leader in favour of another Hero/Henchman. However, it actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that!

When replacing Heroes, do they have to be killed off? Or can I just boot one out at a whim? And if a Henchman gets LGT, could I remove a Hero and put the LGT Henchman in his spot?
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 8:33

Kitsunae wrote:
Just came across this thread today, it's amazingly helpful! Making a switch from elves to dwarves for my next campaign, and wasn't quite sure where to start.

Glad to hear that!

Kitsunae wrote:
Also, never ever have I considered dropping my Leader in favour of another Hero/Henchman. However, it actually makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that!

Yeah, I didn't either in the beginning, but it does indeed make sense, when you look at the numbers! This applies to a lot of warbands, which is actually kind of a shame. I tend to keep the leader for fluff reasons, but usually the warband is best off without him in the end!

Kitsunae wrote:
When replacing Heroes, do they have to be killed off? Or can I just boot one out at a whim? And if a Henchman gets LGT, could I remove a Hero and put the LGT Henchman in his spot?

This is a difficult question. You can find different arguments on this side; the most notable being that you may dismiss ANY Hero at ANY time, and the other that you have to re-roll if you are full on Heroes. In our group we find it most enjoyable that you decide when to boot your Heroes, not just 3 games before you actually roll Lads. Could quote the relevant phrases, but I am at my phone right now; I am sure you can find your answer somewhere else in this section Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 10:07

Excellent stuff Aipha. Really to the point no messing and everything explained really well.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Wed 10 Sep 2014 - 21:08

Thanks Aipha! Much appreciated! Since I'm the one running the next campaign, might just run in favour of drop your heroes when you want. We're already running a few other house rules, which so far everyone likes. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 3:30

Thank you all, glad to be of service; your comments have made me extra enthuisiastic to put up guides for other warbands as well. Look for them in the near future!
Kitsunae, that sounds like a brilliant plan. One of the most important things to remember when interpreting the rules, is that the game should be enjoyable for all. This is one of the things that we definitely hold as making the game more fun to play. If we had to 'prepare' a spot for a Lads Hero, this would gimp the warbands not already in possession of all their preffered Heroes. Also, it makes sense that a new Lad, proving himself to be worthy, gets his spot by booting one of the old and tired Heroes.

Anyway, if you have a suggestion for a specific warband, please PM me your request. I don't claim to be an expert in all warbands, so all requests might not be met, but it might give me some clue of what is needed at the moment, and hopefully at least one of your requests is one I can meet!
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 16:33

Some interesting ideas there. It is always fun to see how other people approach warband builds. I tend to work myself into ruts (assuming an approach worked reasonably well the first time), so it is intriguing to see alternative approaches.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 19:04

My LGS has a couple of dorf players. I'm gonna direct them here to see if they might be able to make use of your advice with their warbands, especially regarding the troll slayers.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 19:41

Mr. D, they will become more powerful than you imagine! A knee-high army of dwarfs will overrun your whole club, rendering gaming futile.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Thu 11 Sep 2014 - 20:06

Don't I have to strike them down before they can become more powerful than I can possibly imagine? Or has that happened already and that's why they're so short?

Question, though. Would it be worth it to start out with no Troll Slayers and focus on multiple henchies to get LGT?
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 15 Sep 2014 - 5:59

MrDancyPants wrote:
My LGS has a couple of dorf players. I'm gonna direct them here to see if they might be able to make use of your advice with their warbands, especially regarding the troll slayers.

Sounds great; you'd be most welcome to!

MrDancyPants wrote:
Question, though. Would it be worth it to start out with no Troll Slayers and focus on multiple henchies to get LGT?

Well, that's somewhat of a tough decision. As Troll Slayers only really get good later on, it might be tempting to leave them out, since Lads Heroes will be better. However, if you play against Lizardmen/Beastmen/Orcs/Possessed/anything that can get T5/T6 + Resilient, you'd really want to have that Troll Slayer, since Monster Slayer simply is the bomb, especially with Dual Gromril Dwarf Axes, removing -3 from any Armour Save they might have. Also, if you don't get any Lads after the first underdog game, your whole progress will be delayed quite a lot. 2 Heroes will usually net you 2 Shards, but rarely ever 3, which you will get in total with your Warband skill; Incomparable Miners. Also, you will lose out on even more doubles.

In conclusion, you might stay away from that 2nd Troll Slayer, focusing on Lads Heroes, but having at least one is really the safe way to go, and also the best, looking at your endgame goal (unless you play vs. a lot of humans only).
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 15 Sep 2014 - 8:16

Makes sense. I'll be passing that on.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 14:02

I really can't disagree more with the entire premise of this guide. The most successful way to play dwarves is to leverage their four strongest traits: Toughness 4. only out on a 6, Generally WS 4. High Leadership.

Buying expensive equipment is foolish. The extra numbers you will face will quickly overwhelm your force. I've tried the "fancy" force numerous times. Only poorly played warbands or if you get lucky will you win.

How to win with dwarves? Numbers:

Dwarf Lord
Engineer
2 Troll Slayers
1-2 Clan Dwarfs
6 Beardlings in groups of 2.

You go cheap on the weapons for all henchmen. Dwarf axes if you can afford it for your heroes. I sometimes take a crossbow, other times not. Sometimes a pistol or 2.
Sometimes I hire the Troll Slayer. I often hire the Arabian Trader (or whatever he is called)
Often the Tilean Marksman.

You form a couple of groups with the Noble Leading one group and the Engineer the other. Trollslayer and clan dwarf "bodyguard" front with the beardlings. Goal is to get your opponent to charge/shoot your cheap beardlings and you counter-charge with the heroes. Your weaponskill will be equal to most henchmen that charged your beardlings and few beardlings will fall due to their T. Your counter charge will quickly overwhelm your opponent and keep the beardlings that went down from being taken out. You now have a couple of opponents down and a nasty mass of T 4, WS 4 heroes and better Henchmen than would take on an enemy 2nd wave. If you have gotten lucky, you might force a Leadership check.

In the days where spears actually worked for dwarves I did this and fronted with spears. They are useless now, with I 2. Just take daggers and hammers on the cheap.

You build up your heroes with winning the battle of attrition and keeping those heroes fighting and collecting wyrdstone. By splitting your henchmen groups into 2 man "units" you get more rolls for lads. You can do 1 man units but its easy to lose a whole group then.

You can get snappy armor and weapons from many of your explorations and as you have crazy amounts of money. In fact, I almost always end up with the cash to get Nikodemus within 6-8 games. The cursed Pilgrim makes the dwarves just short of invincible. Especially if you have been able to kit out your heroes. A dozen dwarves with armor, shields, and 3 or 4 hired swords and Niko? You opponent better bring a stellar army. Frankly, unless my opponent brings some big Dramatis, like Veskit. The games last 2 turns after contact.

This works well for one off and for campaigns/tournaments. Only opponents with many ST 4 or ST 5 units are a problem. Beastmen, orcs can be with their ability to swamp you, skaven, though they usually run. Orcs with their entirely broken rules that don't require rout checks until all the goblins are gone (if you build the warband the right way) are a particular problem.
Undead, elves, all Humans, Sisters, Witch Hunters and Chaos are usually a piece of cake. You often outnumber them and out class them.

This isn't the most interesting way to play, but any warband less than probably 8 models will almost always lose unless the campaign is encouraging equipment with a house rule. This approach is without much doubt, the most successful I've ever played. How many times? Umm often enough my local players asked me not to play "12 angry dwarves" anymore.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 18:14

Hello Nastyogre, and welcome to the thread Wink first of all, thank you for your input. When I put together this post, my goal was to give different examples of succesful starting warbands, so that everyone may pick their favourite. You've given another example, that might work for some, though I do not believe it is the best in the long run, which I will elaborate a bit on, by answering on your comments.

Nastyogre wrote:
I really can't disagree more with the entire premise of this guide. The most successful way to play dwarves is to leverage their four strongest traits: Toughness 4. only out on a 6, Generally WS 4. High Leadership.

I do not know excactly what premise you are referring to, but let I will assume it is different from the one you mention right after: To leverage their strongest traits.

First of all, Toughness 4 is not what I would consider their strongest trait, as Toughness 5 is stronger, and all of your Heroes can get it eventually, while your henchmen are not good for much else than becoming Heroes at first and then later on assistant killing machines, who cannot be downed. They are still nowhere near Heroes in potential though.

I cannot argue with 'only out on a 6', and can only agree that this is what seperates Dwarves from the rest, and arguably are their single most strong trait, which you should use to the best. This is excactly why I recommend Helmets for everyone, as Dwarves have a 50% bigger chance (3/6 instead of 2/6) of getting stunned, making a Helmet so much better on a Dwarf. Also they are Toughness 4/5/5+resilient, so a Helmet is a true lifesaver, as they have their Toughness available when they are knocked down.

You say that 'generally WS 4' is also a strong trait, and again I can only agree, but I'm more a 'WS 4' is a strong trait, as that allows henchmen to increase to WS5, rendering WS 2 opponents almost useless against them. Same goes for Heroes. Having Beardlings removes that advantage on the WS front, leading me to your next comment, which is that high leadership is important.

Again, Beardlings come out short on the whole leadership thing, and I do not know if you always play scenarioes where your warband is together all the time, or play without Wyrdstone Pendulums & Tarot Cards, which are the greatest source of income for my Dwarves, but if you say yourself that leadership is important, and even one of the 4 most important things, I cannot understand why you would choose Beardlings over Clansmen.

Nastyogre wrote:
Buying expensive equipment is foolish. The extra numbers you will face will quickly overwhelm your force. I've tried the "fancy" force numerous times. Only poorly played warbands or if you get lucky will you win.

Foolish is an interesting word to use here. I would rather say that it's another approach. You might disagree with how I play with my Dwarves, but I believe them to be more than deadly against any foe. I lose the first one or two games to get my Heroes and henchmen set, and then I never lose a game with them again. That is in my experience pretty succesful. Also, I believe you misunderstand the tactic and care you have to show with these kind of warbands I suggest; you are not supposed to run out and attempt to win, you are supposed to earn a good sum of money while getting your first great LGT Heroes and leave while you can for the first few games. Your heavily armoured Noble is not even getting in action before he has earned at least Resilient/Extra Tough or a Wound, so that he may either survive or at least keep his equipment, should he be taken OOA.

Nastyogre wrote:
How to win with dwarves? Numbers:

Dwarf Lord
Engineer
2 Troll Slayers
1-2 Clan Dwarfs
6 Beardlings in groups of 2.

You go cheap on the weapons for all henchmen. Dwarf axes if you can afford it for your heroes. I sometimes take a crossbow, other times not. Sometimes a pistol or 2.
Sometimes I hire the Troll Slayer. I often hire the Arabian Trader (or whatever he is called)
Often the Tilean Marksman.

I presume you mean 'Clansmen' and not 'Clan Dwarfs'? And 'Noble' instead of 'Dwarf Lord'? Unless you are playing with different rules than I. I don't see any Arabian Trader on my official Hired Sword list. I hope you do not use the Dutch rules from the internet, because there are flaws all over.

When do you take a Crossbow, and when do you not? Because a Crossbow are not worth much with an Engineer of BS3, who can't even move and shoot. Unless you use terrain on less than 50% of the board, you'll be shooting at 5/6 plus most of the time with 1 shot. And your enemies can easily hide / run into complete cover, where you cannot see him without moving, and you cannot shoot while moving. If I should be cutting any equipment, that would be it.

Nastyogre wrote:
You form a couple of groups with the Noble Leading one group and the Engineer the other. Trollslayer and clan dwarf "bodyguard" front with the beardlings. Goal is to get your opponent to charge/shoot your cheap beardlings and you counter-charge with the heroes. Your weaponskill will be equal to most henchmen that charged your beardlings and few beardlings will fall due to their T. Your counter charge will quickly overwhelm your opponent and keep the beardlings that went down from being taken out. You now have a couple of opponents down and a nasty mass of T 4, WS 4 heroes and better Henchmen than would take on an enemy 2nd wave. If you have gotten lucky, you might force a Leadership check.

In the days where spears actually worked for dwarves I did this and fronted with spears. They are useless now, with I 2. Just take daggers and hammers on the cheap.

I do the same, but just with Clansmen. They're definitely on par with the opponent's henchmen and with a spear (this is just a house rule though), they will strike first. I would really suggest implementing this, since it means that spears actually are useful for their huge price.

Nastyogre wrote:
You build up your heroes with winning the battle of attrition and keeping those heroes fighting and collecting wyrdstone. By splitting your henchmen groups into 2 man "units" you get more rolls for lads. You can do 1 man units but its easy to lose a whole group then.

Once again I agree, I just do it with Clansmen instead, simply because that 15gc extra is worth the two extra increases. Once again, I do not know how much you earn pr. battle, but if you use Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums it should be quite enough.

Nastyogre wrote:
You can get snappy armor and weapons from many of your explorations and as you have crazy amounts of money. In fact, I almost always end up with the cash to get Nikodemus within 6-8 games. †The cursed Pilgrim makes the dwarves just short of invincible. Especially if you have been able to kit out your heroes. †A dozen dwarves with armor, shields, and 3 or 4 hired swords and Niko? You opponent better bring a stellar army. Frankly, unless my opponent brings some big Dramatis, like Veskit. The games last 2 turns after contact.

Here you talk about earning a lot of cash; I just like spending them on Heroes with a 2% chance of dying after being taking OOA instead of henchmen/Hired Swords with a 33% chance of dying. Again, this is why I buy expensive equipment for them; they do not lose it, so it's very much playing the numbers. Investing in something that is much more certain to hold in the long run.

Nastyogre wrote:
This works well for one off and for campaigns/tournaments. Only opponents with many ST 4 or ST 5 units are a problem. Beastmen, orcs can be with their ability to swamp you, skaven, though they usually run. Orcs with their entirely broken rules that don't require rout checks until all the goblins are gone (if you build the warband the right way) are a particular problem.
Undead, elves, all Humans, Sisters, Witch Hunters and Chaos are usually a piece of cake. You often outnumber them and out class them.

This is why great WS along with T5 and Resilient is awesome. Paired with the Dwarf Special skills, your opponent won't bother hitting you. Also, I usually run a ranged warband, or somewhat 50/50, because Dwarves are just a hard bunch to kill at range (OOA on a 6 without Hunting Arrows and most Bows with Hunting Arrows are S3, meaning that your T5 Heroes cannot be crit by them - again playing the numbers, by decreasing your crit chance to a minimum).

Nastyogre wrote:
This isn't the most interesting way to play, but any warband less than probably 8 models will almost always lose unless the campaign is encouraging equipment with a house rule. This approach is without much doubt, the most successful I've ever played. How many times? Umm often enough my local players asked me not to play "12 angry dwarves" anymore.

I usually go with 9 models after 3 - 4 games, but keeping it low in the beginning ensures that your Heroes can live to fight another day, when they're strong enough to do so. Once again, look at their stats; they're only as good as a Clansman in the beginning most of them.

It's great that you have succes with your style, and I am sure it works, but looking at a warband long term, where you need the most optimal Henchmen & Heroes, I do not see any Beardlings in that. Whenever you get a Lads Hero, he will already be at least 2 increases behind, both of them in crucial stats, especially Ld, which is important with Tarot Cards & Wyrdstone Pendulums, so you can get the best exploration, earning you even more gold. Getting extra Henchmen for Dwarves to groups with 14 exp is so easy with Dwarves, as you can just roll up Prisoners (3 3 3) whenever needed, so your Henchmen groups better be good. I usually lose 0 - 1 Henchmen pr. battle and I still win it. Should he die permanently, well, Prisoners it is. Buying expensive Armour for your Heroes is something you will need to do eventually if you want 'the best' warband (or do you plan on running without armour the entire campaign?), so investing in it when you can save up to 225gc along with a ton of rarity rolls is simply just not a bad idea in the long run.

Currently I'm running a Campaign in Lustria, using this kind of tactic. I lost the two first games, but since then I haven't lost a single one (which is 10 games later). I also play with Dwarves outside that setting, and they rarely ever see any losses either. They fall behind for a short while and then they accelerate past you before you even notice.

They are the Tortoise in 'The Tortoise and the Hare'.

You may have succes with your style, and if anyone wishes to play with it, I see no harm, but I just don't see the point in having secondhand Heroes and secondhand Henchmen, when you can easily afford the best. Same goes for equipment; I'm going to get that Gromril eventually, and I do not need Crossbows to begin with, so the choice is simply really.

Have a great weekend cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 21:03

I have tried a variety of builds with dwarves, and the one thing I never, ever do is take beardlings. The clansman are tons better for a minor increase in gold.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 22:03

Yes, yes, nobles are lords, Clansmen are clan Dwarfs (dwarves wouldn't call them Clansmen, they aren't men)

I take a crossbow when I am bored or just feel fluffy that the Engineer should use a crossbow. Usually not though.

Arabian Merchant/Trader? Really? He's one of the official Hired Swords. Even in the official tournament legal list. He's grossly underpriced. Almost always earns his keep. Counts as a model on the field and can often make a significant amount of gold crowns. Once he has a skill or two he can either contribute to combat (bleh) or better make you 50 gc after a game, win or lose. Plus he can make it easier to get access to rare equipment.

We don't use much of anything but the official rules, or at least GW published rules/options. If there is a "dutch" version of the rules, I'm not aware of it.

Do you play against small warbands? Most starting Skaven bands would outnumber you more than 2 to 1. If not, they'd have a Rat Ogre, which is probably worse for a small dwarf band. Orcs are as bad with cheap goblins. Even humans or various types will outnumber you by a good 4 models.
That snappy armor means darn little when you have 2 or more opponents on you. Heaven forbid they got excited and had some hero with a 2H or something that can put you out with an easy roll once you are downed to a swarm of attacks. (Though anything but dual weapons is a poor choice mathematically for most models)

The cash you make for winning is substantial in many scenarios. I prefer to win and roll in the wyrdstone.

I have no doubt that basically playing to lose your first few games might get you to advance. I just question why you play that way when a successful, competitive approach is easily had. Our campaigns typically tracked Warband rating and win/loss record to see who won, if we were playing competitively and not just for the fun of it. So setting up to lose the first few isn't a good idea.

Mordheim is a numbers game. I learned long ago, that the number that really matters in and GW game, is models in the fight. Outnumbered 6 or 8 to 12, your team has to be that much stronger per model? That's not always the case. There are usually enough attacks, ST 4 or some sort of craziness that will thin your ranks. A small dwarf warband loses so much with each downed fighter the prospects of winning or even surviving are slim. My opponents make a habit of intentionally holding back to swamp small warbands so every fighter gets engaged and you could get put out.

While a hero has a small chance to die if taken out, that costs you their exploration roll if they go out. Unless you literally refuse to engage with anything but the Clandwarfs, and rout immediately you are still risking getting swamped.

Armor is terrible in Mordheim. So often you come across enough ST to negate it. Though Gromil might be the only armor worth it. Run into a Rat Ogre, Troll, Vampire, Possessed and you aren't wearing much. Not to mention the ubiquitous 6 to wound. Sure T 5 fixes that, IF you can get it.

Counting on a Toughness advance or a skill so you can take Resilient is a risk. One I don't choose to take. You could just as easily roll BS, WS or Leadership. Wounds is always nice of course.

I guess I look at your approach as high risk and high reward. Don't have half your heroes get put out the turn before you rout, well good. Do that a few times, ok good. Now you have some exp and skills and 8 or 9 dwarfs and cool armor. I can do the same thing and win almost every game without breaking much of a sweat. You do have better armor than I would though. I'd have that much more exp and money and models (I get a Halfling cook and cookbook as soon as I can so I have 14 dwarves)

I take beardlings early to up my numbers. I cycle in Clandwarfs as I lose the little runts. I was initially opposed to them too. Until I saw what a passel of them could do. 25 GC for a warrior the equal of most other warband's base henchmen, AND I'm T4. Ok, sign me up.

Tarot Cards and Wyrdstone Pendulums are great, once you get them. I rarely need them.

I just think numbers is a fairly easy counter to the expensive equipment approach. I have typically been badly outnumbered in most campaigns. Take away that weakness and most warbands have a very hard time beating you AND you can develop nicely. I just think expensive equipment is particularly risky.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Sat 27 Sep 2014 - 23:42

I see your point about the bearlings, Nastyogre, but one of the "ruts" I am in with warband builds is that I almost never take the cheap fodder. Skaven are an exception, of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 29 Sep 2014 - 9:50

Nastyogre wrote:
Yes, yes, nobles are lords, Clansmen are clan Dwarfs (dwarves wouldn't call them Clansmen, they aren't men)

Good point Wink

Nastyogre wrote:
I take a crossbow when I am bored or just feel fluffy that the Engineer should use a crossbow. Usually not though.

Alright, well for fluffy reasons there's a lot of other things I would do, but what I was trying to hit in this guide was an optimal warband from a 'win the campaign' point of view, not 'have-most-fun-and-stick-to-the-story' point of view Razz

Nastyogre wrote:
Arabian Merchant/Trader? Really? He's one of the official Hired Swords. Even in the official tournament legal list. He's grossly underpriced. Almost always earns his keep. Counts as a model on the field and can often make a significant amount of gold crowns. Once he has a skill or two he can either contribute to combat (bleh) or better make you 50 gc after a game, win or lose. Plus he can make it easier to get access to rare equipment.

Ah, you meant the Arabian Merchant! Yes, well, I know him, but find him quite a bit broken. Of course he is easily to dispatch of, but if he's not, then he can bring in the bucks en masse.

Nastyogre wrote:
We don't use much of anything but the official rules, or at least GW published rules/options. †If there is a "dutch" version of the rules, I'm not aware of it.

Great great, was just making sure we were discussing from the same premises!

Nastyogre wrote:
Do you play against small warbands? †Most starting Skaven bands would outnumber you more than 2 to 1. If not, they'd have a Rat Ogre, which is probably worse for a small dwarf band. Orcs are as bad with cheap goblins. Even humans or various types will outnumber you by a good 4 models.
That snappy armor means darn little when you have 2 or more opponents on you. Heaven forbid they got excited and had some hero with a 2H or something that can put you out with an easy roll once you are downed to a swarm of attacks. (Though anything but dual weapons is a poor choice mathematically for most models)

I play against: Mercenaries (Ostlander, Reiklander, Middenheim, Marienburg, Averland, Tilean), Witch Hunters, Beastmen, Skaven, Druchii, Lizardmen, Wood Elves, Marauders of Chaos, Protectorate of Sigmar, Orcs & Goblins, Undead & Norse Explorers. While I agree that numbers mean a lot, Dwarves usually lose out on most objective games anyway, and their true winning is in the exploration phase. This is why underdog is great to get you that first Hero after your first game, thus getting extra dice. The chance might be bigger with Beardlings, but I would replace him later on anyway, which is why I prefer taking the best Henchmen at first, instead of switching them in later on. I'm not too scared of Double-handed Weapons in the beginning, as most models have only 1 attack with them, and strike even after my Dwarves. And a 3+ save is nothing to joke about; I made all except 1 yesterday. Also, you still have that armour when you are knocked down. Then again, your Noble is not going in Close combat for the first few games, and the other armour(s) are safe in the stash.

Nastyogre wrote:
The cash you make for winning is substantial in many scenarios. I prefer to win and roll in the wyrdstone.

I have no doubt that basically playing to lose your first few games might get you to advance. I just question why you play that way when a successful, competitive approach is easily had. Our campaigns typically tracked Warband rating and win/loss record to see who won, if we were playing competitively and not just for the fun of it. So setting up to lose the first few isn't a good idea.

Again, it has worked out great in our current campaign. Also, it's not a certain loss, but playing underdog doesn't make it easier. This is why only losing a single model and then routing cuts your losses brilliantly. I'm sure that your approach works out just fine, but I don't find it optimal if you're playing to put together the best team possible in the end. Winning is preferable, but with my approach, you will indeed be winning the rest of your games after the first few.

Nastyogre wrote:
Mordheim is a numbers game. I learned long ago, that the number that really matters in and GW game, is models in the fight. Outnumbered 6 or 8 to 12, †your team has to be that much stronger per model? That's not always the case. There are usually enough attacks, ST 4 or some sort of craziness that will thin your ranks. †A small dwarf warband loses so much with each downed fighter the prospects of winning or even surviving are slim. My opponents make a habit of intentionally holding back to swamp small warbands so every fighter gets engaged and you could get put out.

I agree that numbers win the game, but you will have those numbers on your side with a bit of patience while building up the warband. My approach is to optimize for an 'end-game' warband; one where you can play 700 rating games without losing any warriors permanently (or at least replace them easily). Also, I don't find the whole 'equip them all with maces and daggers' to be any kind of fun, even if it meant a 2% higher win-chance. Some of the most important numbers in this game imo. are the 5 Toughness + Resilient combined with a high armour save, making your warrior outlast any attackers, while your shooters have already focused the dangerous foes down.

Nastyogre wrote:
While a hero has a small chance to die if taken out, that costs you their exploration roll if they go out. Unless you literally refuse to engage with anything but the Clandwarfs, and rout immediately you are still risking getting swamped.

It's hard to swamp hiding Dwarves! Wink but possible... darn Elves!
Anyway, after the first few games, I'm not too concerned about going to close combat with my Heroes, and my number of models are usually 8 or 9, which is fine against most foes in my experience.

Nastyogre wrote:
Armor is terrible in Mordheim. So often you come across enough ST to negate it. Though Gromil might be the only armor worth it. Run into a Rat Ogre, Troll, Vampire, Possessed and you aren't wearing much. Not to mention the ubiquitous 6 to wound. Sure T 5 fixes that, IF you can get it.

Counting on a Toughness advance or a skill so you can take Resilient is a risk. One I don't choose to take. You could just as easily roll BS, WS or Leadership. Wounds is always nice of course.

Gromril is indeed worth it. With a Sea Dragon Cloak from a captured Druchii Heroes, it's even more fun. Rat Ogres are only STR 5 meaning you still have a 5+ save and probably a Parry + Step Aside as well. Also, with Toughness + Resilient, you're still only wounded on 5+.
Guess the Dice Gods are just with me, because I roll Toughness and Wounds a lot on my Dwarves. Also, skills are not too hard to come by.

Nastyogre wrote:
I guess I look at your approach as high risk and high reward. Don't have half your heroes get put out the turn before you rout, well good. Do that a few times, ok good. Now you have some exp and skills and 8 or 9 dwarfs and cool armor. I can do the same thing and win almost every game without breaking much of a sweat. You do have better armor than I would though. I'd have that much more exp and money and models (I get a Halfling cook and cookbook as soon as I can so I have 14 dwarves)

I agree that the Cook & Cookbook are great things (don't remember if I've included them, but they should definitely be!)
The risk is not all that high tbh. - the first few games are of course important, but you can easily recover from a bad start. The problem with having so many models is that you get a lot of experience, but that Clansmen would leave you at a lower rating, but with better units. Same goes with Thunderers. On top of that, you earn less gold, the more models you have. Thus you might have more experience, but that experience awards you the equivalence in rating, which is a bad thing imo., as your Heroes should mostly be the ones getting experience in the beginning, and then your henchmen can catch up later on.

Nastyogre wrote:
I take beardlings early to up my numbers. I cycle in Clandwarfs as I lose the little runts. I was initially opposed to them too. Until I saw what a passel of them could do. 25 GC for a warrior the equal of most other warband's base henchmen, AND I'm T4. Ok, sign me up.

But still M3! Very Happy

Nastyogre wrote:
Tarot Cards and Wyrdstone Pendulums are great, once you get them. I rarely need them.

Can understand that with that horrible OP Arabian Merchant Wink

Nastyogre wrote:
I just think numbers is a fairly easy counter to the expensive equipment approach. I have typically been badly outnumbered in most campaigns. Take away that weakness and most warbands have a very hard time beating you AND you can develop nicely. I just think expensive equipment is particularly risky.

Expensive equipment is only risky if you lose it/cannot afford to lose it. And yes, this is a dice game, but that is also why things like being 'uncritable' against S3 (and S4) is a huge buff in the beginning, as crits can really mess up your game (i.e. your Heroes).

Anyway, I am inclined to try your approach, just to see how it works, though I am still not too fond of Beardlings, since they possess no Hero potential for me Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 29 Sep 2014 - 10:05

Well after this discussion we aren't so far off as it seems. Leaving the pricey armor in the stash huh? Until its safe to bring it out? Interesting.
I don't mind beardling lads that much. Sure they aren't a Clandwarf, but they work to get that $$ coming in. They are certainly better than the human youngbloods. T4 and WS3. M3 stinks but all the dwarves have that.

The Arabian Merchant is indeed broken. Not in so much what he does but what he costs. Should be double the upkeep. He is easy to kill but I deploy him well back or I stick him in the middle of the dwarf pack if he won't be safe.
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 29 Sep 2014 - 14:17

Nastyogre wrote:
Well after this discussion we aren't so far off as it seems. Leaving the pricey armor in the stash huh? Until its safe to bring it out? Interesting.

Aye, until you have Extra Tough on whoever gets it Razz

Nastyogre wrote:
I don't mind beardling lads that much. Sure they aren't a Clandwarf, but they work to get that $$ coming in. They are certainly better than the human youngbloods. T4 and WS3. M3 stinks but all the dwarves have that.

They do, if they get Heroes, yes. And you're right about the risky business I'm going with. Usually my Clansmen are in solo groups in the beginning, so the loss of one is the loss of a group. But I only need them for Lads to begin with anyway.
Youngbloods aren't really my preferable Heroes anyway; much more potential in a Lad's Swordsman! I tend to swap them out as soon as possible. Have a friend though, who has a lot of fun Youngbloods. They're mostly fun because they're bad on paper, but he rolls ridicoulessly well with them ^_^

Nastyogre wrote:
The Arabian Merchant is indeed broken. Not in so much what he does but what he costs. Should be double the upkeep. He is easy to kill but I deploy him well back or I stick him in the middle of the dwarf pack if he won't be safe.

Yeah, can imagine that your many Beardlings can do a great job of keeping him alive Wink keeping him back is also an option, but we have so many things that can spawn on table edges due to random happenings, that it's more safe for him to follow the rest.

Anyway, thank you for your contribution to this thread; always nice with input from others, even if they are different than your own thumbsup
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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 29 Sep 2014 - 14:58

I would say (at least in my case) especially if they are different than your own. †Once if find something that works, I tend to stick with it and not experiment much.


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PostSubject: Re: Guide: Dwarf Treasure Hunters Warband Starting Roster   Mon 29 Sep 2014 - 15:40

mweaver wrote:
I would say (at least in my case) especially if there are different than your own.

Couldn't agree more thumbsup As long as it is solid, well-grounded and non-biased input Very Happy
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