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crobat
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PostSubject: Shadow warrior black powder   Tue 2 Sep 2014 - 17:03

Hello,

Can't find "official" answer to this:

Can a Shadow Warriors, with proper skill use black powder weapons?

I totally agree fluff wise elf can't use guns... it is stupid. But I'm looking for official source, that states something like "Elf can't use black powder" I went trough MH RB, went trough erratas, went trough FAQs I manage to found and I went trough Shadow Warrior war band rules multiple times.
I would really appreciate if someone can point me to official source that preventing shadow warriors and other elf in Mordheim from using b.p. weaponry.

With <3 Crobat
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Aipha
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Tue 2 Sep 2014 - 17:16

crobat wrote:
Hello,

Can a Shadow Warriors, with proper skill use black powder weapons?

Hello!

Err... Yes thumbsup

Can't use poison, but that seems to be about it. GL with Hunting Rifle Shadow Warriors hiding 24" away!
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Tue 2 Sep 2014 - 18:02

Official.  Hmmm.  Shadow warriors aren't official... just saying.

2005 Rules Review, pp.12-13 wrote:
Official Warbands

Over the years we’ve seen a number of new warbands and Hired Swords in a variety of publications and versions. This can be somewhat confusing for people, so we’ve gone through them all and listed those that should be considered “official”. What we mean by this is that we think these warbands and Hired Swords are reasonably balanced and fair. Whilst you can, of course, use any warbands you like in your own games, the ones listed here will probably form the basis for most competitive events (one of the reasons we made this list was repeated questions about what was ‘legal’ in tournaments).

All of these should appear on the website in due course so that they are available to those of you who missed a given publication.

Warbands
All the ones in the printed rulebook
Orc & Goblin warbands from the 2002 Annual
Dwarf Treasure Hunter warbands from the 2002 Annual
Ostlander warbands from the 2002 Annual
Averlander warbands from the 2002 Annual
Kislevite warbands from the 2002 Annual
Beastmen warbands from Empire In Flames
Carnival of Chaos warbands from Empire In Flames

Commentary on Official Warbands

The Elves are a special case. They have been deliberately left off the list as they are, in their current form, entirely inappropriate for Mordheim. Elves will return in the future, but will be somewhat different when they do.

Note that this promise was made nine years ago and is not likely to be kept anytime soon.

If you are looking for ammunition in a discussion with a fellow player it would be easier if your group just came to an agreement, cause the 'official' boat sailed long ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Tue 2 Sep 2014 - 20:49

RAW, Shadow Elves can hide in the shadows and then use very loud weapons that emit a flash of light and vomit out huge clouds of white smoke. As Von Kurst said, you'll not find anything official about it, but I haven't seen anything that specifically disallows it for Shadow Warriors, though I believe the fan-made Wood Elf rules specifically disallow black powder, as do Bretonnians, iirc.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 2:42

Thank you all for quick reply. Just to mention I play wood elf army in WHF, and I would scram if they would put guns in our army book... but I'm that kind of guy that sometimes exploits cheese in rules, just to proof friends something needs to be changed Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 6:23

See, here's the thing. You're using unofficial rules. Those are not balanced or peer reviewed and are rarely examples of personal restraint. They're not a good example of when things need to be changed, and black powder isn't nearly as good as crossbows are.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 11:13

MrDancyPants wrote:
black powder isn't nearly as good as crossbows are.

On paper, Crossbows are better than most Blackpowder weapons, but I'd definitely argue that both a Handgun and a Hunting Rifle, along with Duelling Pistols and Blunderbusses all have their moments. Against a melee warband, where you need to move a lot around, the Crossbow isn't worth as much as a Handgun, and doesn't come that close to a Hunting Rifle either. The two combined (Crossbow when standing still, Handgun/Hunting Rifle when moving) with the right skills however is a killer. So they actually kinda compliment each other. Also, a Druchii or Skink infiltrater with a Blunderbuss, who goes first? You can make a warband rout in the first turn, if you're a bit lucky.

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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 14:27

With two skills, you can either fire the Crossbow on the run or fire twice when standing still. It's a greater range than the Handgun with the same strength. It can be poisoned and is a common weapon that any human hero can take from the start.

The only advantage that Handguns have is moving and shooting, but they fire every other turn. You can mitigate that with a skill, but for the cost of two skills (Weapons Expert and Hunter) I can get the same strength, longer range, potentially two shots, the ability to poison, and lower gold cost.

Pistols are a different story, though it's so easy to get Strength 4 on someone, it's more for flash than for use. I'd rather have Sword/Club than a pistol in my hand.

Hochland Long Rifles have ridiculous range, but there's often so much terrain that it's mostly gratuitous range.

Blunderbusses are amazeballs! They also make henchmen into a seriously expensive target. However, the fear they put into people is worth the price of 30gc and one shot per game.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 15:47

With Black powder weapons you can always increase the Strength for a game using Superior Gun Powder and then if you get a Misfire but roll a six (this is what i save my rabbits feet for if i roll a one)
you are hitting an enemy for strength 6 (-4 to armour) and if you have a long rifle you can choose targets that are not the closest.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 20:21

If you're in an elevated position, you're also able to chose your targets. And if it's a character that shoots, they should be elevated. Superior black powder can increase the strength of black powder weapons, but poisons work for all other weapons, so they're more versatile.

The -4 to armor saves generally don't sell me on it, as most armor saves are 4+ or 5+, so a S4 crossbow drops that to 5+ or 6+ for free, which is usually enough. And with multiple shots, you have a greater chance at crits, which usually negate armor anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 21:03

A lot of heroes in our campaign have brought themselves venom rings and poison doesn't work on undead so superior gun powder works better for me.
if i was shooting hired swords and henchmen no probs 2 crossbow shots with poison any day but the versatility of guns can make all the difference killing heroes
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Wed 3 Sep 2014 - 21:40

It is refreshing to see someone picking black powder.  The Long Rifle tends to rule our battlefields though it takes us Hunter and Nimble to get there.

Quote :
Against a melee warband, where you need to move a lot around, the Crossbow isn't worth as much as a Handgun...
Quote :
The only advantage that Handguns have is moving and shooting, but they fire every other turn.

I suppose I know the answer to this question, but my rulebook doesn't give handguns the ability to move and shoot...

2005 GW Mordheim Rulebook, p. 55 wrote:
handgun
Maximum Range: 24"; Strength: 4;

Special Rules: Prepare shot, Move or fire, Save modifier

SPECIAL RULES

Move or fire: You may not move and fire a handgun in the same turn, other than to pivot on the spot to face your target or stand up.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Thu 4 Sep 2014 - 6:39

Yup, mine does too, they just forgot to bold it and include it in the square. So yeah, handguns have even less to compare against crossbows.

My issue was that my handgunner hero had nimble, so I forgot about the Move or Fire.

Good catch.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Thu 4 Sep 2014 - 6:52

Nimble is of course presupposed, as Quick Shot is for Crossbows. Dah.

Gonna reply some more on this later on Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Thu 4 Sep 2014 - 19:08

I think my biggest thing is that Crossbows simply fire twice as much and at a longer range than hand guns, but at the same base strength.

Of course, in my group, people with composite elven bows with quick shot, heavy pull, and hunting arrows. They hate everyone and everyone hates them.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Thu 4 Sep 2014 - 21:08

I Banned the following in our campaign , Composite bow's , black arrows and using both heavy pull and quickshot in the same turn bows are not under powered and don't need those ridiculous fan made rules when you modify one weapon too much you find all of your weapons getting tweaked to compensate and things get OTT .
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Thu 4 Sep 2014 - 21:30

Yeah. We don't use Composite Bows or the Heavy Pull skill in our group. I think that we may have played with a fan-made warband (another Robin Hood variant) that had Heavy Pull (I assume that this skill adds +1S to the attack from a bow) but like PF we said that it could not be combined with Quick Shot.
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PostSubject: Re: Shadow warrior black powder   Fri 5 Sep 2014 - 8:30

MrDancyPants wrote:
With two skills, you can either fire the Crossbow on the run or fire twice when standing still. It's a greater range than the Handgun with the same strength. It can be poisoned and is a common weapon that any human hero can take from the start.

The only advantage that Handguns have is moving and shooting, but they fire every other turn. You can mitigate that with a skill, but for the cost of two skills (Weapons Expert and Hunter) I can get the same strength, longer range, potentially two shots, the ability to poison, and lower gold cost.

You mention 2 skills required for Crossbows. Same applies to Handgun; Hunter & Nimble.
What I am talking about though is not that the Crossbow is worse. Not at all. I'm just saying that the Handgun can deliver a better punch, when you have Nimble anyway.

As a Dwarf player, the Handgun (or Hunting Rifle) is the perfect supplement to my Crossbow. Especially against moving warbands, where I cannot get a still shot. Also, most of our units have armour, which of course is a factor as well.

Crossbow/Handgun is perfect for Dwarves because they don't need a skill for it, and because they're rarely in an elevated position (it is possible, but compared to warbands with access to speed skills, they fall behind). You're talking from another perspective I can see, as you require 'Weapons Expert' in your calculation.

Also, Superior Blackpowder is also an option, and as PF mentions, you can be immune to poison, but not to Superior Blackpowder.

MrDancyPants wrote:
Pistols are a different story, though it's so easy to get Strength 4 on someone, it's more for flash than for use. I'd rather have Sword/Club than a pistol in my hand.

Pistols are not my preferred close combat weapon either. Can agree with you on that.

MrDancyPants wrote:
Hochland Long Rifles have ridiculous range, but there's often so much terrain that it's mostly gratuitous range.

The 'long range' is not what makes this good. It's the short range; i.e. that most of the time, everyone is on short range, meaning basically +1 to hit.

MrDancyPants wrote:
Blunderbusses are amazeballs! They also make henchmen into a seriously expensive target. However, the fear they put into people is worth the price of 30gc and one shot per game.

Definitely Wink
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