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 Hired Swords that come with One Use Items

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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Sat 2 Aug 2014 - 22:22

So I've been looking at a lot of Hired Swords lately.  Many of the unofficial variety (and at least one 'official') come with equipment that is one use only.  So how do you, gentle readers, interpret the workings of this equipment?

After three games are the outrider's torches gone?  Does the Slaver lose his net the first time he uses it?

What about equipment that may die, like horses? Can a player replace a lost horse for an outrider?

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 11:20

I never played with any of these HS, but..

My thoughts in red..

Von Kurst wrote:
After three games are the outrider's torches gone? I say, yes  Does the Slaver lose his net the first time he uses it? Again, yes. This is why I dislike the Net

What about equipment that may die, like horses? Definitely yes Can a player replace a lost horse for an outrider? Here, im not sure (cant buy equipment for HS), but in my group I allow it, juist for fun

Hope it helps  Smile 

-Skavenslayer
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 14:55

This is just my view. A hired sword provides their own starting equipment so I believe that they would be responsible for providing replacement equipment at their own expense and would be assumed to do this of their own accord between battles. This would apply to one use weapons, mounts, weapons broken by the Sword Breaker, etc.

On the other hand, I don't mind the option that Skavenslayer's group has taken to allow the warband to buy back consumed, dead, lost equipment.
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Skavenslayer
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 15:21

Mr. Lemmings argument is very valid. Buying back there own epuipment (ammo included) is part of what the upkeep is there for.

Mordheim is not known for its RAW rules, but comparing the Ogre Slayer with Johan the Knife.
Johans equipment includ Poison and Drugs (forgot the names) and is refilled at the start of every battle. Something like that, dont got my rulebok on my now.
The Slayer gets a Net in his equipment and no other rules about refilling.
But it might be RAI.
Again if the HS refill there own equipment, why do the Highwayman get 3 torches...

I can see arguments for both sides.. What I normaly do in this cases is play devils advokat with my group or myself (yes, Im that lonely sometimes) and try to agree on something.

-Skavenslayer
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 18:58

Skavenslayer wrote:
Again if the HS refill there own equipment, why do the Highwayman get 3 torches...

That's the one that's messing with me as well. Why three torches?

Thanks very much for the comments, it has given me more to think about.

Most often we have been playing that once its used its gone, but as we play with more mounted HS the question of replacement horses comes up more often and once we replace a horse, well why not a net?
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Mon 4 Aug 2014 - 3:51

Von Kurst wrote:
Skavenslayer wrote:
Again if the HS refill there own equipment, why do the Highwayman get 3 torches...

That's the one that's messing with me as well.  Why three torches?
Yep. That doesn't make much sense with my logic.

Quote :
A player cannot buy extra weapons or equipment for a Hired Sword, and he cannot sell the Hired Sword’s weapons or equipment.
Quote :
Special characters have their own equipment. Only they may use this equipment; it can’t be given to other warriors. Furthermore, you cannot buy extra weapons or equipment for a special character.
The rules for Hired Swords and the rules for Dramatis Personae (or "Special Characters" in the quoted text*) both state that a player cannot buy extra (emphasis added) equipment for the warrior. If you are replacing a net then you are not buying extra equipment but simply replacing the equipment that was used.  Wink 

*I find it interesting that the rules for Dramatis Personae officially call these characters "Special Characters" and the phrase "Dramatis Personae" is simply the name of a chapter within the rulebook. Obviously Dramatis Personae sounds a lot more cool than Special Characters and that is why it is the de facto name for these warriors of repute.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Tue 5 Aug 2014 - 11:38

On a slight tangent that's been brought up here, the way I read the rules for Johan the Knife, he doesn't have an infinite supply of Crimson Shade, and if the player wishes to retain his services they must pay his upkeep plus some Crimson Shade. It's a steep cost, but then he is a freakin' murder machine.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Tue 5 Aug 2014 - 15:54

Actually davinewrath the rules for Johan are 70 to hire 30 for upkeep. Alternatively since Johan is addicted to crimson shade you can give him crimson shade to hire him. His upkeep is still 30gc.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Tue 5 Aug 2014 - 21:37

RationalLemming wrote:
Von Kurst wrote:
Skavenslayer wrote:
Again if the HS refill there own equipment, why do the Highwayman get 3 torches...

That's the one that's messing with me as well.  Why three torches?
Yep. That doesn't make much sense with my logic.

Quote :
A player cannot buy extra weapons or equipment for a Hired Sword, and he cannot sell the Hired Sword’s weapons or equipment.
Quote :
Special characters have their own equipment. Only they may use this equipment; it can’t be given to other warriors. Furthermore, you cannot buy extra weapons or equipment for a special character.
The rules for Hired Swords and the rules for Dramatis Personae (or "Special Characters" in the quoted text*) both state that a player cannot buy extra (emphasis added) equipment for the warrior. If you are replacing a net then you are not buying extra equipment but simply replacing the equipment that was used.  Wink 

Even though I like logic, I must say GW's rules are not known for it.

Good point about the extra equipment.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Wed 6 Aug 2014 - 1:52

I would think the upkeep cost takes care of any said replacement material/items. Other wise you might as well spend time/exp/rare item search and just build a hero like Johan or any other hired sword or persona. The reason these guys and girls are so cheep and good at what they do is balanced out by the upkeep cost. If a halfling theif for example lost its sword using the optional rules, that between what I was paying him and "what he's getting on the side" he couldn't find a replacement?
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Wed 6 Aug 2014 - 2:18

Von Kurst wrote:
Skavenslayer wrote:
Again if the HS refill there own equipment, why do the Highwayman get 3 torches...

That's the one that's messing with me as well.  Why three torches?
My one thought on this which I didn't bother mentioning in the past is whether there are rules for torches going out (e.g. rain, swimming, etc). Three torches would allow the Roadwarden to relight their torch. This is a very edge case though and I don't really think it was necessarily the intention.
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Von Kurst
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Wed 6 Aug 2014 - 5:20

Quote :
I would think the upkeep cost takes care of any said replacement material/items
For some of the items I would totally agree. For expensive rare items I am less comfortable with the idea, but with some HS like the DE Assassin this is indeed the case.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Thu 7 Aug 2014 - 20:23

As for the highway man with 3 torches. Its so he can burn 3 different buildings in one game. With the "Let them burn" rules. If I remmeber right, in some Empire in Flames games, you can burn some building downs if you are the "bad guy" like beastmen or something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Thu 7 Aug 2014 - 21:14

That is an interesting theory, although the Outrider is an 'official' hired sword and the Let the Damned Burn are fan written unofficial rules which do not include rules for torches  Wink 
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Thu 7 Aug 2014 - 22:13

Yeah I was sure there was some rules with torches being used to destory buildings in villages for empire in flames games.

But here are a few other reasons that could be for the torches:

1: It's a typo. Maybe the auther meant only 1 torch.
2: Maybe there was plans for rule for burning wagons and stage couches and the auther of the highway man had those rules in mind. But the rules for burning the wagons were never printed and they forgot to make the changes to the highway man.
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Fri 8 Aug 2014 - 3:05

Von Kurst wrote:
That is an interesting theory, although the Outrider is an 'official' hired sword and the Let the Damned Burn are fan written unofficial rules which do not include rules for torches  Wink 
If official rules refereneces rules then does that make the rules being referenced official? (Roadwarden -> Torch -> Let the Damned Burn) Wink

Quote :
(Torches may also cause buildings to catch fire – see 'Let the Damned Burn', from Town Cryer 8 )
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PostSubject: Re: Hired Swords that come with One Use Items   Fri 8 Aug 2014 - 18:46

Very Happy 
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