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butthole_serfdom
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PostSubject: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 31 Jul 2014 - 6:16

I've been looking at the Dwarfs for a possible army (tossing up between them and Ostlanders) and I'm wondering what a good starting list would be? I've seen a lot of advice in favor of an engineer with crossbow but that's about it - the rest is conflicted. I want to buy some models and bits, but before I do I want a rough picture of a fairly okay warband. If anyone has played or is playing Dwarfs and knows a good starting list or has any general advice I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Cheers  Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

EDIT: Decided to be more proactive and put together a list. Comments?

Heroes

Dwarf Noble - 2 * Dwarf Axe

Engineer - 1 * crossbow; 1 * club, mace or hammer

2 * Troll Slayers - 1 * Dwarf Axe; 1 * axe

Henchmen

3 * Beardlings - 1 * axe; 1 * club, mace or hammer

Thunderer - 1 * crossbow; 1 * club, mace or hammer

Total cost = 500 gc
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sat 2 Aug 2014 - 1:27

Your proposal is quite good.

A dwarf warband which starts with eight models is quite strong.

You could buy instead of a beardling a thunderer with crossbow if you exchange the good but expensive dwarf axes with axes and daggers.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 4:53

Thanks SerialMoM.

I was thinking of putting a two-handed weapon on the noble and one of the troll-slayers. This'll save me 20gc, which I can put towards buying clansmen or thunderers when the beardlings die off.

Thoughts?
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sun 3 Aug 2014 - 11:13

Your list look good, Dwarf are expensive so not that many options, especially if you want to start with crossbows. And that IS a good idea.

Im not sure Im reading your list correct... Is both Sayer armed with Dwarf Axe AND normal Axe. Or is it one with Dwarf Axe and one with Axe ??
Same about your beardlings...

If every close combat member is armed with 2 (non dagger) melee weapons, remember you can use the free dagger in the first games and maby get another Bearding w. Club+Dagger (my favorite way to arm them)

Edit: About 2handers, I would never give the Leader a 2hander (maybe after getting Strongman, but still), but when I play Dwarf I often give a 2hander to one af the Slayers at start-up.

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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Mon 4 Aug 2014 - 3:23

Thanks skavenslayer (cool name btw). I should have made the list clearer, I'll blame it on the laziness this time. It should be read as the beardlings and the troll slayers each having what ever gear comes after their name.

i.e. 2 * beardlings - 1 * axe = 2 beardlings each with an axe

I've revised the list a bit, cut down on gear and added a beardling for numbers. I'll have to check my math but I think I save 2 gc too Very Happy. Let me know what you think of it!

Cheers.  

Skavenslayer wrote:
Your list look good, Dwarf are expensive so not that many options, especially if you want to start with crossbows. And that IS a good idea.

Im not sure Im reading your list correct... Is both Sayer armed with Dwarf Axe AND normal Axe. Or is it one with Dwarf Axe and one with Axe ??
Same about your beardlings...

If every close combat member is armed with 2 (non dagger) melee weapons, remember you can use the free dagger in the first games and maby get another Bearding w. Club+Dagger (my favorite way to arm them)

Edit: About 2handers, I would never give the Leader a 2hander (maybe after getting Strongman, but still), but when I play Dwarf I often give a 2hander to one af the Slayers at start-up.

-Skavenslayer

Heroes

Dwarf Noble - 1 * Dwarf Axe; 1 * club, mace or hammer

Engineer - 1 * crossbow; 1 * club, mace or hammer

Troll Slayer - 1 * Dwarf Axe; 1 * axe

Troll Slayer - 1 * 2-handed axe

Henchmen

4 * Beardlings - 1 * club, mace or hammer; 1 * free dagger

Thunderer - 1 * crossbow; 1 * club, mace or hammer

Total cost = 498 gc
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Mon 4 Aug 2014 - 11:48

Remember to give all your dwarves the free daggers too! You don't have S4 models yet, but successful 6+ armor saves from daggers are rare enough. At least when your thunderers get charged, they can defend themselves with two attacks instead of one.

I understand the need to pump up your warband size, but I'm still not convinced about the Beardlings. For 15 gcs less than Clansmen/Thunderers you also lose three advances (WS, BS, Ld). Depending on your advance rolls, it might be that after 9 games your Beardlings are as good as your _starting_ Clansmen - and only better than them after maxed out after 15 games. I wouldn't take 4 of them, if I could avoid it.

You could get 8 dwarves by sticking to the cheap weapons in the beginning - hammers and free daggers:
Noble - hammer, free dagger
Engineer - crossbow, hammer, free dagger
Slayer 1 - hammer, free dagger
Slayer 2 - hammer, free dagger
Clansman 1 - hammer, free dagger
Clansman 2 - hammer, free dagger
Thunderer 1 - crossbow, hammer, free dagger
Thunderer 2 - crossbow, hammer, free dagger

This bunch costs 494 gcs, a bit less than your 9 models, but at least your models start out stronger than the Beardlings.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Mon 4 Aug 2014 - 21:17

I am starting a dwarf war band too and I would go with eide's list. That way you have 8 models, 3 crossbows with extended range and 5 decent close combat fighters.

Although beardlings are tempting because of the lower cost, they have lower WS, BS and LD and that's a lot to sacrifice.


Last edited by Wyrdstone Dave on Thu 7 Aug 2014 - 22:30; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Tue 5 Aug 2014 - 1:03

elde and Wyrdstone Dave argue well, but I disagree. Beardlings are good for cannon fodder. You don't want to lose your thunderers or clansmen, but beardlings are disposable and therefore good rout-enabling material. I know some don't like this strategy of ranged combat, and early routing if things get to sticky, but it's a good way to advance your warband in the beginning. I would exchange at least one of the clansmen in elde's list for a beardling, and get some other equipment. A 2h-axe is still a nice thing to have on or two models. In the long run clansmen are better than beardlings (and thunderers generally a better investment than clansmen), but you will probably need some pawns to sacrifice early on.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 7 Aug 2014 - 22:34

For a one-off game or tournament, beardlings may be a better use of points. They still have T4 and a decent WS. But I don't ever play to take early rout tests so I hadn't thought of them as cannon fodder. It's up to you and your style of play really. Beardlings aren't a complete waste of points like witchunter zealots are.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Fri 8 Aug 2014 - 18:27

I have never played dwarfs myself, but I have played against them a fair bit and one common thing I have noticed among the ones that do well is that they avoid beardlings at the start until they have their TLGT heroes and *then* stock up on the cannon fodder. Granted, losing a Clansman or Thunderer hurts more than losing a beardling, but the sooner you can get the TLGT heroes you are going to keep the sooner you can bring online the earning powerhouse that is the dwarf warband.

Also, don't forget - Thunderers for your melee TLGT heroes and Clansmen for your sniper TLGT heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sat 9 Aug 2014 - 0:11

Okay Lord 0, you got me. I have to ask- why the cc thunderers and the sniper clansmen? Granted, my thunderer hero is a cc guy, but he got and extra attack and an extra strength right off the bat. That's just a fluke though.

You are absolutely right about the roster changing when you get six heroes. Right now I'm at five, and I'm using henchmen like babies: I'm pampering them and keeping them save, especially the young ones. My heroes are doing the brunt of the fighting, and I'm being careless only with the henchmen who are running out of xp. Now, when I get to six heroes, all that changes. Then, I protect the heroes and the untalented loutes stuck in the henchmen pool are just so much charge blockers and cannon fodder.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sat 9 Aug 2014 - 13:42

A Thunderer with the combat skill that lets him use all weapons will *also* be able to use decent shooting weapons for backup shooting. Similarly, a Clansman with the shooting skill that lets you use all shooting weapons will be able to take decent backup melee weapons for when they have to melee.

Since you often have to take those skills *anyway* to get access to some of the better weapons (e.g. hunting rifle, swordbreaker, etc.) then might as well give the skill to someone who has a better weapon pool in the *other* field.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sun 10 Aug 2014 - 0:33

Here is a write-up on the subject I did for my brother's blog a couple of years back:

Dwarf weaknesses:

Slow movement. Nothing you can do about it really.

Low initiative. Go with the flow and give two-handed weapons to anyone who can pack one - if you're always gonna go last in a melee, go last with gusto! Used to be you could give them spears so they could belly-stick all those speedy show-offs as they came in on the charge, but alas no more with the officially revised rules for spears. Note that buying two-handed weapons for everyone is a bit pricey.

Only four starting heroes: It gets better. Shard-wise they make out fine, but they get fewer cool multiple rolls early on.

Two of the four heroes don't benefit from many of the dwarf strengths: specifically, the two slayers cannot wear any armor and cannot pack any of the extra-long range missile weapons the engineer provides. This weakness never goes away. However, it effectively diminishes over time since once you have two promoted henchmen-heroes, they can carry missile weapons and wear armor so the weird slayers are only 1/3 of your hero compliment, not 1/2.

Expensive models: You receive excellent value for your gold – dwarves have great stats and special racial abilities - but your starting warband will be smaller than average (no pun intended).



Dwarf strengths.

They are tanks. They can wear heavy armor, pack shields, and still move 3. It's pretty cool. But all that heavy armor is expensive, so it takes time for this advantage to truly manifest itself.

Toughness 4 + the “Hard to Kill” rule (OOA only on a 6) = stubby immortals. Together, these rules make them some of the most durable warriors in the game. They may not earn as much experience early on as other warbands (because of their speed), but they also lose very few guys they have to replace, so it adds up. To repeat – you are far less likely to have to replace dead heroes in a campaign, especially if you take the Dwarf Racial skill Extra Tough, which lets you reroll a result on the Serious Injury table.

They always find an extra shard. So, even when they have only four heroes they do fine for money, and with five and especially with six heroes, they are going to be rolling in gold. Note also the four starting heroes can all take the Resource Hunter special skill, which gives them the Elf Ranger ability of adding +/-1 to their die roll on the Exploration chart. Over time, Dwarf warbands tend to become seriously rich.

They have some useful special skills. True for the general dwarf skills and the slayer skills. I have already mentioned Extra Tough and Resource Hunter, but there are several other really good skills. For example, the Slayer skill Berserker combined with the Slayer’s WS of 4 means there are a lot of targets he will hit on a roll of 2+.

Good leadership. When the captain goes Out of Action, nobody really notices... Even the little beardlings have a leadership of 8, the same as most human captains.

Long-range missile weapons. Gotta love the engineer. 36-inch range crossbows and 9-inch range pistols is a Good Thing. Dueling Pistols (one of the best weapons in the game) have their range increased to 13 inches.


The Weaknesses vs. Strengths Balance:

In my experience, Dwarven strengths outweigh their weaknesses, and the longer the dwarf warband runs, the more their strengths manifest themselves. And that is the important point to keep in mind: they are slow (hah!) to start in a campaign because they only have four starting heroes and underperform in snatch-and-run scenarios, but they become exceedingly powerful (and rich!) over time.


Building a Dwarf Warband.

Heroes.

You have to take all four, obviously (you always take the maximum number of starting heroes for any warband. Always).

For the captain, sometimes I buy the cheap Gromril armor, sometimes not. Starting out, it is only 25 gc more than heavy armor, for the +1 point of armor save. However, the other benefit of gromril armor (can be used with a shield without slowing a warrior down) is lost on dwarves, who are never slowed by armor. So, a good buy still, but with all dwarf models being so expensive, it might be better to scrape and save on kit to buy more henchmen (and the more henchies you start with, the more chances you have to roll The Lad’s Got Talent).

For the Engineer, I pretty consistently go with a crossbow and a hand weapon (hammer or axe) and have him hang back and snipe (so, no pistol). Now as he develops I usually add pistolier and eagle eyes and gift him with dueling pistols, at which point he will more consistently hunt with the pack.

For the slayers, I usually go with one with a two-handed weapon for the +2 Str and the other the other has a dwarven axe and a mace or hammer (I can never decide which configuration is better, hence one of each; it also makes it easier to remember which slayer is which).

In terms of henchmen, I usually have a mix of clansmen and thunderers. I never take beardlings – the more expensive clansmen and thunderers have +1 WS, +1 BS, and +1 Ld compared to the beardlings, which is a steal for 15 gold coins, if you ask me. Going with beardlings might allow you to make your starting warband one or two stunties bigger, but be patient – you are going to max out you numbers soon enough, so start with the better henchmen (who, when promoted, will also make the better heroes).

Stat-wise, thunderers and clansmen are identical – the difference is in the kit they can take. Thunderers cannot take dwarf axes or two-handed weapons (booo!), and clansmen cannot take crossbows (or, for that matter, handguns, but who cares about the handguns?) In my first couple of dwarf warbands I started exclusively with thunderers, but later I realized how effective short pissed-off dwarves swinging two-handed weapons at people’s kneecaps were. Now I generally go with a mix. By the way – if you have a clansman who earns a promotion to hero, consider giving him the shooting skills as one of his two skill groups, because if he takes hunter, he can use any missile weapon and thus becomes extremely versatile; similarly, if you have a thunderer promoted, consider allowing him access to the combat skills so he can take weapons training. [Lord O's point in the previous post].
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 9:32

Nice write-up, I actually read the original post on one of the blogs.

I'm finding that a critical strength of the dwarfs is the Resource Hunter skill. Resource Hunter (plus or minus one on a single exploration dice) makes it possible to purposefully set out to achieve an exploration table result. If you are looking for 2's, you can make a dice into a 2 half the time (1's can be modified upward and 3's downward). This takes the 1/6 chance of a given result into a 1/2, except for 1's and 6's, which become 1/3. Since any of your heroes can have this skill, you can do some major digging around on your results to get some neat multiples. Only four of your guys really need this, not all of them, because statistically you will come up with several dice rolls which are dead-on, and don't need modifying (if you're gunning for 6's, you'll more likely roll a combination of 5's, which need modifying, and 6's, which don't, than just rolling all 5's). Combined with three or four reroll from maps, odds get pretty good that you can hit 5 of a kind, and even six of a kind becomes realistic.

This benefits tremendously from having many dice to start with, so getting up to six heroes is useful. From there, winning games and keeping heroes alive will further help, something that dwarfs aren't bad at. I try to build a rhythm of exploration, where one game I'll try to get double 2's (extra dice next exploration phase) and buy as many maps as I can, and the next game I'll focus on getting everyone out alive. This gives a bigger payoff every other game and let's you not worry about rolling great every game.

When you look at the result of six 2's, it's easy to see why this is a potential strategy. Even just selling all the items at half value, you'd make something like 150 gold off six 2's, which is well worth the fortune you'd spend in maps. For someone willing to put off on battle-related skills, juicing up your post-game game can pay off. Furthermore, having a strong post game allows you to collect jewels giving +1 on rarity rolls, give heroes academic and combat skill trees, find catacomb entrances, stack up free loot, hired swords, and henchmen, and have a chance to find a magical artifact.

I'm just in the mid-game with my warband, and I only have 5 heroes, but I like this strategy. It's fluffy for dwarfs and allows me to have fun with a niche part of Mordheim, which is great. Dwarfs have a key advantage in this way, which really makes them unique.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 10:18

^It should say "double 4's" give you an extra exploration dice, not double 2's.

The other dwarf skill that doesn't affect anything in-game but is great post-game is the Extra Tough rule. This lets you reroll a serious injury result. The difficulty of replacing heroes is high for dwarfs, who can only buy new slayers and engineers, and who pay a lot for henchmen to recruit up. Keeping heroes alive is critical, then. There is about a 1/6 chance of losing a hero that goes OoA, but that drops to about 1/36 for an extra tough dwarf, who can reroll his first "death". This means dwarf heroes ought to live twice as long as others, accumulate more skills, become much deadlier, and keep expensive equipment from being lost when they buy the farm (or gold mine, or whatever). Added on top of this the numerous ways dwarfs are hard to kill (OoA on 6 only, Hard Head, True Grit, an affinity for armor) and you get a troop of shorties who have every chance of becoming the oldest, toughest, most grizzled sons of guns in the city. Less hero turn over means more skilled heroes, more exploration rolls, and less equipment lost. Another reason why dwarfs in the mid to late game are a uniquely interesting choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 13:50

Saluksic: "I'm finding that a critical strength of the dwarfs is the Resource Hunter skill...."

You do think like a dwarf!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 15:34

mweaver wrote:
Saluksic: "I'm finding that a critical strength of the dwarfs is the Resource Hunter skill...."

You do think like a dwarf!

Exactly Very Happy

I like both of yours and Saluksics post very much. .good job!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 16:49

Glad you liked it. I've made it my mission to find a magical artifact in this campaign, so I've been thinking about the post game for a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Wed 13 Aug 2014 - 18:24

I think it would be a hoot if you could find the Boots and Rope of Pieter.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 14 Aug 2014 - 9:02

I would never need an initiative check again!

The one I'm really hoping for is the armor, or the miseracordia. Just to be able to say I have one is a good enough goal in itself, to be honest.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 14 Aug 2014 - 11:38

In many many years of playing, I have never hit that result. I think someone else did it once in a campaign I was playing. But we have never invested a lot of effort into buying the kit and choosing the skills that let you manipulate your rolls. It would be fun to try some time.

Good hunting, Saluksic!
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 14 Aug 2014 - 12:02

Thanks! I'll keep my battle reports thread posted on any fat loot I dig up. I just like this game a lot and want to dig deep into it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Sun 17 Aug 2014 - 6:26

In order to get those artifacts make sure to buy all your heroes rabbits feet, tarot cards and wrydstone pendulums, combined with resource hunter you should have all the artifacts in a short period of time.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Mon 18 Aug 2014 - 0:26

We're only playing with the gear from the basic book, so I won't be using any of those items. I'm going for Mordheim maps and Entrance to the Catacombs.
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PostSubject: Re: Dwarf Treasure Hunters   Thu 21 Aug 2014 - 1:10

I'd like some advice. I have an engineer who I'm not sure what to do with. He's just leveled and gets a new skill; he already has weapons expert, extra tough and resource Hunter. I'm not sure what skill to give him next.

He's not a very useful hero. He can't take strength skills, so he can't get Resilient or Mighty Blow and roll with the tough guys. I gave him weapons training, but I'm spending all of my rarity rolls looking for maps, so no blunderbusses or dueling pistols. Right now he putzes around the back with a crossbow and usually gets eaten by a vampire.

I'm not sure if I should give him pistol skills and send him up front, give him nimble & trick shot and have him hang out in back, or give him general skills like Step aside and hard head to improve his survivability.

Any tips for shooty heroes in general, or this case in particular?
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