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Seikilos
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 8:57

Hi,

nice to see that this thread works ;-)


I have several more questions:

- If a model has got a wyrdstone, is he able to flee (to his starting point) from the table to prevent the wyrdstone from getting stolen by killing this model?
- If a model flees, does he count for 25% when having to roll for rout-tests?
- Is a elven bow a normal bow (like a gromril armor would be a normal heavy armor made of another material (faq!) or does you have to make a weapon training to use it?
- When you got the skill leap, are you allowed to leap DURING a charge? For example: start charge, leap over enemy model in the way, end charge to enemy model?
- Are there any rules for knocking over ladders etc?
- In the shooting phase, is there a specific order for shooting and magic use?
- Where can I find the actual maximum profiles for all kind of warrios?


And one not so short question:

How does hiding work actually?

At all time, i would be in cover I can hide instead (if I didn't run). As long I don't give up this position or end in another position I would be in cover, I'm hidden. If I run, someone gets too close to me or if I
'm not in cover anymore I'm no longer hidden and can be seen and therefore can be shot?


Thank you!

Marcel
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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 11:46

Seikilos wrote:
If a model has got a wyrdstone, is he able to flee (to his starting point) from the table to prevent the wyrdstone from getting stolen by killing this model?
I know of nothing that prevents this and I think it's supported with a scenario like Hidden Treasure where the objective is to carry the chest off the table.

Seikilos wrote:
If a model flees, does he count for 25% when having to roll for rout-tests?
The rout test rules state out of action, but I imagine fleeing an engagement would have the same effect psychologically on a warband. House rule if in doubt.

Seikilos wrote:
Is a elven bow a normal bow (like a gromril armor would be a normal heavy armor made of another material (faq!) or does you have to make a weapon training to use it?
Like Ithilmar. It does not appear in any of the official warbands starting gear and I only know of it being in starting gear for unofficial and experimental starting band gear. If you can use a bow I suppose you can later obtain an elven bow.

Seikilos wrote:
When you got the skill leap, are you allowed to leap DURING a charge? For example: start charge, leap over enemy model in the way, end charge to enemy model?
Yes.

Seikilos wrote:
Are there any rules for knocking over ladders etc?
Our House Rule: End movement phase at ladder, top or bottom, to knock it down. Spend an entire movement phase to set it back up.

Seikilos wrote:
In the shooting phase, is there a specific order for shooting and magic use?
I am unaware of an official rule so we resolve it as the active player's choice as only the active player has actions.

Seikilos wrote:
Where can I find the actual maximum profiles for all kind of warrios?
2nd page of the Experience section of the rules. Also there is errata and rules review addition/changes.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 12:20

Seikilos wrote:
How does hiding work actually?

At all time, i would be in cover I can hide instead (if I didn't run). As long I don't give up this position or end in another position I would be in cover, I'm hidden. If I run, someone gets too close to me or if I
'm not in cover anymore I'm no longer hidden and can be seen and therefore can be shot?
This seems to be the essence of the hide rules and how we use them. Is there a specific aspect you question?
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 12:22

Hi,

with the wydstone I though about scenarios like wyrdstone hunt. A model gets the wyrdstone and flees to prevent being killed and get the wyrdstone taken away. So not an scenario where you SHOULD get the things back at your start!

With fleeing: I think it's difficult. If I have a warband with four members and don't want to fight, I could flee with one model over the table and then rout? Kind of hard. I'm not really a fan of fleeing at own will!
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 12:35

Seikilos wrote:
Hi,

with the wydstone I though about scenarios like wyrdstone hunt. A model gets the wyrdstone and flees to prevent being killed and get the wyrdstone taken away. So not an scenario where you SHOULD get the things back at your start!

With fleeing: I think it's difficult. If I have a warband with four members and don't want to fight, I could flee with one model over the table and then rout? Kind of hard. I'm not really a fan of fleeing at own will!

Agreed. Mordheim is great for and requires house rules. So with uncertain rulings go with what your gaming group agrees on.

Rules state you cannot voluntarily rout unless you have lost 25% of your warband. But a player wanted to end the match by running all of his models off the board. In some instance we feel this is tactically sound (overwhelming odds, Surprise Attack can ruin your day sometimes). We house rule that you can end this way but if there was no casualties on either side (OOA), the fleeing warband gets no experience and no exploration. A fighting withdrawal as opposed to just fleeing at the sight of the enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 14:29

Mike wrote:

Seikilos wrote:
Is a elven bow a normal bow (like a gromril armor would be a normal heavy armor made of another material (faq!) or does you have to make a weapon training to use it?
Like Ithilmar. It does not appear in any of the official warbands starting gear and I only know of it being in starting gear for unofficial and experimental starting band gear. If you can use a bow I suppose you can later obtain an elven bow.
I'm going to disagree with you again Mike. Very Happy† The bow is divided into four classes in Mordheim: Short bows, bows, long bows and Elven bows. By the rules if a weapon is not listed in a warband's equipment list, a hero must take the relevant skill to use it. The rules for Elven bows appear in the main rule book along with the separate rules for the other bows listed. I'm missing the intuitive leap that makes a warrior learn a skill to use a short bow if its not on his list because its on someone else's, but Elven bows don't require require training because they are not on an official warband list...

There is no skill to allow a warrior who can't wear heavy armor because its not on his warband equipment list to learn to wear it, warriors use armor or they don't.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 16:14

I love the forum for its open discussion of rules. The warhorse rule I commented on I indeed read wrong but I am glad to understand it better now. As we have only had one mounted character in all of our campaigns, a Bretonnian Questing Knight late in a campaign, we had only a cursory understanding of the rules. I welcome anyone who attempts to ride without skill. †Laughing

I can see the reasoning for the elven bow not being allowed, and requiring Weapons Expert for use but would still allow it in house. Saying a short bow differs so much from a normal bow that it would preclude the skill to use them interchangeably does not make sense to me (though I could see long bow use as different if you imagine it as an English longbow or Japanese yumi). I can't see the workings of an elven bow differing that much either. Ranged weapon descriptions in the rulebook speak of material differences only.

Ithilmar weapons do not appear on starting equipment, but I would see the same correlations in material and craftmanship with a handweapon, as I would a bow. Even more so as swords and their style of use can differ greatly. But I dont want to bog down the discussion in what is realistic in our fantasy hobby, only how I viewed the situation. Thank you for the chance to discuss the rules, in our group debate is as much of a gaming activity as the actual wargaming.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 20:07

You are most welcome and I thank you for sharing your opinions as well.

I've been on the wrong end of a few discussions. I've found I can learn new things about this game quite often. And because GW no longer pays any official attention to Mordheim, it is fun to tweak and invent rules as necessary. I just have to keep what is an official rule and what is a house rule straight, which is often a challenge. ††Rolling Eyes

All of your points are valid, especially since GW's writers have such a hard time using consistent language and keeping fluff text and rules text coherent. Ultimately I think most rules questions are really up to the group playing the game as each group has to balance playability and complexity, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 23:17

Hi,

thanks for your discussion!

So, if I understand it right, example dwarfs:

A Thunderer could buy and wear an gromril armor without needing any skills to do so. But he can't purchase it from the start, because it's not on his equipment list.
A Thunderer could NOT use a dwarf axe, because he has to get the skills for it?


For all my questions above which seem to be "not that short", I would open separate threads for more clearness!



Edit:

Quote :
Seikilos wrote:
Where can I find the actual maximum profiles for all kind of warrios?

2nd page of the Experience section of the rules. Also there is errata and rules review addition/changes.

I saw that, but as long as I know, there were changes (for example at the beastmen stats). Also there are some warbands (lizardmen), which aren't there, at all.
That's why I asked for an overview or a list of ALL kind of warriors after all erratas and similar!


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Mike
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 23:36

Seikilos wrote:
A Thunderer could buy and wear an gromril armor without needing any skills to do so. But he can't purchase it from the start, because it's not on his equipment list.
A Thunderer could NOT use a dwarf axe, because he has to get the skills for it?

Thunderers can use gromril armor (heavy armor available on their equipment list). They can start with gromril as well:

Dwarf Treasure Hunter Equipment List wrote:
**The price of a suit of Gromril armour is cheaper for a starting warband to represent the relative ease with which Dwarfs can find such items in their own stronghold. Later purchases of Gromril armour must be done using the normal price chart in the
Mordheim rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Sun 13 Apr 2014 - 23:51

Seikilos wrote:



I saw that, but as long as I know, there were changes (for example at the beastmen stats). Also there are some warbands (lizardmen), which aren't there, at all.
That's why I asked for an overview or a list of ALL kind of warriors after all erratas and similar!

The rulebook and errata will only cover official warbands. Lustria in TC 11 does not list max racial stats for lizardmen either and I am unaware of a master list of race stats that covers official, unofficial and experimental warbands.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 0:02

Mike wrote:

Thunderers can use gromril armor (heavy armor available on their equipment list). They can start with gromril as well:



But the gromril armour is only available to the dwarf equipment list and NOT to the thunderer equipment list.

So they can use it, but only if the buy it later for 150 gold? Or aren't they allowed to use it at all?
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 0:33

Seikilos wrote:
But the gromril armour is only available to the dwarf equipment list and NOT to the thunderer equipment list.

More confusingly written rules. Heavy armor can be made from gromril material.
Official Mordheim FAQ wrote:
Q: According to page 65, Starting a Warband, a warband can only ever use the weapons and armor on their initial equipment list. A provision is made to get other weapons that aren't on the list later on (ie: the Weapons Training skill). However there is no provision for armor. On the Price Chart we see Gromril and Mithril Armor. They have costs and rare rolls, but no warband has them on their equipment list. Is this something that will be added later or is it an error or something else?
A: No. Gromril and Ithilmar are Materials. They are still suits of heavy armor, albeit made from expensive materials.

This is from the Mordheimer site, I cannot find a copy of the official FAQ online at the moment and my hardcopy is in the garage.

Also skink and saurus racial maximum stats are in the Mordheim Annual 2002 Q&A on p.108.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 0:36

Hi,

thank you for your quote. But then again I would say, Thunderers could wear gromril armor, but NOT from the start, because they are not allowed to buy it.

You could buy it for your noble and swap it after one game, but if you have to purchase it later on, you can equip ALL of your dwarfs but have to pay 150 gc each!


Right?

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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 0:49

I have a hard enough time giving my thunderers missile weapon when I start a dwarf warband let alone getting them gromril armor, even at 75gold. If a unit can get something at a later date from the normal rules of their equipment list I don't see why they could not start with it. I think it was an oversight not to include the gromril armor on the thunderer list when heavy armor is. House rule it if it is a point of contention in your group I suppose.

And yes the 75gold cost only reflects starting cost. I think you understand this but I add it in case I misunderstood.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 9:53

In close combat, is it possible to swap weapons? If so, how frequently can it be done?

Example, charges with flail for turn 1, swaps to sword and board after.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 10:47

klinktastic wrote:
In close combat, is it possible to swap weapons? If so, how frequently can it be done?

Example, charges with flail for turn 1, swaps to sword and board after.

Official Errata wrote:
Q: Can weapons be swapped during a combat?
A: No, with the exceptions of pistols and lances which may be exchanged for a different weapon after their first turn special attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 13:02

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Mon 14 Apr 2014 - 23:12

Which are hired swords I can take with beastmen?

There are several opionions and I'm not quite sure, if I get it right when comparing the Beastmen list and the hired swords list...
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 0:42

Beastman Raiders List wrote:
Beastmen are fearsome creatures of Chaos that
do not interact with other races other than in
war. A Beastmen warband may never hire any
Hired Swords unless specifically stated with
the Hired Sword.

With that being the only official ruling I have found for Beastmen you may have to use your judgement on what would be allowed. None of the official hired swords in the rulebook say no beastmen but they predate Empire in Flames and I don't think a dwarf slayer or elf ranger is going to join ranks with a gor no matter how good his gold is. Ogre bodyguard? Possibly... personally I lean towards no. A halfling scout? Definitely not.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 0:59

Hi there,

thatís exactly the problem, I was struggeling withÖ

There arenít many hired sword which would be possible. I would say Witch, Warlock and perhaps Ogre-Bodyguard. Rest doesnít seem right!

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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 9:09

Like Orcs and Goblins and many of the other evil factions, there really aren't many hired swords available to us. Ogre, warlock, and the Pit Fighter. Honestly, just use common sense and if your group isn't a bunch of rules lawyers, you should be ok, specially if you draft up some proper fluff to support the inclusion.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 14:42

Seikilos wrote:
Which are hired swords I can take with beastmen?

Cursed Hillman is the only one I know of. I think I've seen another or two, but I can't seem to recall them. Most groups allow them to take a bunch of hired swords though. Ours do not. So talk with your group and see what you can agree on.
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Tue 15 Apr 2014 - 14:59

klinktastic wrote:
specially if you draft up some proper fluff to support the inclusion
Yes! Discussing with your gaming group about house rules allowing hired swords for different warbands may go easier when you can support them with fluff.

You can also model hired swords to mesh with your warband and the fluff. My dwarves have an ogre bodyguard that is a steam golem and a witch that is a dwarf alchemist.

alchemist and steam golem
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PostSubject: Re: Short questions, short answers...   Wed 16 Apr 2014 - 13:07

Quick question. A model has an attack characteristic of 2. Does that model get 2 shots with a regular bow?
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