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 Yet another daemonic warband...

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 6:47

So here it is...

Its my first attempt to release a Chaos daemon warband.  Its in a very early state and have never been tested.

You'll need the Corrupted characters article from the liber malefic blog (thx to Werekin for this incredible creation)
Available here :

http://libermalefic.blogspot.ca/search/label/Rules

Feel free to comments, I'd be grateful for any advises.

My two most important ''worries'' about the warband by now is the prices for hiring daemons and the stats lines of the Greater daemons.  I kept the prices high but I wonder if its enough... and about greater daemons, I tweaked them down and gave them a huge hire price but I still wonder if they are overpowered.  They are stronger than a troll and more expensive but they are prone to instability (they can easily ''die'') which counter-balance their strenght... Well I just don't know ... so comment as much as you can as ALL your comments, recommendations, critics, etc... are more than welcome.

Here is the link to the PDF document :

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxEHFxKBRf5VVkc2dXQ4YTY5VnM/edit?usp=sharing


Last edited by Goglutin on Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 15:01; edited 2 times in total
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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 9:50

Version 0.5 is out right now...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxEHFxKBRf5VVkc2dXQ4YTY5VnM/edit?usp=sharing


Last edited by Goglutin on Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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Theycallmejosh
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 12:36

Interesting.... I like the dedication to the four gods as well as being able to include all the units of each of the four gods in the warband....

a couple things to keep in mind though...

traditionally, greater daemons are the leaders of armies, not the henchmen.... and as such, i think they may be a bit much for mordheim.... I cant see much being a match for any of them in combat...

and things are a bit underpriced.... looking at your list, i could have:

1 summoner
1 cultist
2 lesser daemons
1 greater daemon

as a starting warband.... i cant imagine another warband alive that can start with a model that has T5 W4, A3 (6 when frenzied) at S6 and W7.... the majority of models are going to need 5s to hit and 6s to wound (which means no critical hits)...

The closest thing i can think that would even hold a candle and be available to a starting warband would be a minotaur.... and even he wouldnt be much of a match for a bloodthirster
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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 13:41

Thx for the comment.

Yes, greater daemons are powerful, but as henchmen (a deliberate choice because I did not want them to improve) they have 50% chances to die if they are put OOA. This can be a total devastation for a long term campaign if you lose one early.

Also, the warband you chose would only have 2 dices for income rolls so it wont be good for a long term campaign.

However, I still think they are not enough expensive... what should be their hiring price ???
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 13:47

I definitely agree with Theycallmejosh on the Greater Daemons. The stats you have for them are insane for Mordheim, yet still are way underpowered for an actual Greater Daemon (in Warhammer, for example, a Bloodthirster has WS10, S6, T6, W5, I9, A6, a 5+ unmodifiable save, +1S on the turn it charges, +1 attack for 2 weapons, access to Gifts, and automatically does D6 hits to an enemy at the end of each round of combat. A Great Unclean One is T7 with 6 wounds!) I'd definitely leave them out. If you really want to leave them in, they shouldn't be quite as strong as they are, and reeeeeeally shouldn't be called Greater Daemons!

If including daemons that are more powerful than the lesser daemons, it could be interesting to restrict them in a certain way: for example, you have to sacifice warpstone directly to them. So there is no way you can have a starting warband with them, and gold or items that you find along the way won't help you summon them.

If you want a daemon-heavy warband, I think the template of Carnival of Chaos is a good one to follow, especially in that NO daemons gain experience. It is an important cap on their power.

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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 13:55

Ha... I forgot to mention it.. no daemons get experience except the heralds.  Its an overlook...

I see the stats of the greater daemons as they are when fighting packed units... I mean their number of attacks an some advantages so I dont feel like tweaking them down for mordheim is not right...

Also remember its an adaptation, not a formal copy from warhammer.  As an example empire heroes in in Warhammer fantasy are also much stronger than they are in Mordheim !!!

I like the idea of sacrificing wyrdstone .. I'll keep that in mind for the next version. ( maybe a tremendous upkeep would do the trick)...
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Mon 31 Mar 2014 - 14:42

Thax to you Theycallmejosh and Noisy assassin. I take into account what you say and its much interesting.

However I want to keep the greater daemons... still, tweaking them down (logically) by any means is welcome...

If I compare them a a troll they arent SOOO much over it. The troll is immortal, cheaper. Having a high WS isn't much a deal and their tremendous cost (coupled with the upkeep I'll be giving them) will counter-balance the things a bit.

Troll :
M:6 WS:3 BS:0 S:5 T:4 :W3 I:1 A:3 Ld: 4 .. stupid and regenerate, immortal, plus 15 gold upkeep

Bloodthirster :
M:6 WS:7 BS:3 S:6 T:5 :W4 I:4 A:3 Ld 9 .. bloodlust, armored, instability, plus upkeep ??(30 gold maybe??).



They are the most powerful creature after the gods themselves after all !!!
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Tue 1 Apr 2014 - 2:47

Goglutin wrote:

They are the most powerful creature after the gods themselves after all !!!

Aaaand that's exactly why they don't belong in a small scale skirmish game.

I really like your take on a daemon warband but those greater daemons are just silly in this scale. Sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Tue 1 Apr 2014 - 8:07

Dont know if you've read all the other Daemons rules recently posted... I, Too, wrote a list... below is the link

http://boringmordheimforum.forumieren.com/t7663-daemons
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Tue 1 Apr 2014 - 22:25

Goglutin wrote:
If I compare them a a troll they arent SOOO much over it.  The troll is immortal, cheaper.  Having a high WS isn't much a deal and their tremendous cost  (coupled with the upkeep I'll be giving them) will counter-balance the things a bit.

Troll :
M:6 WS:3 BS:0 S:5 T:4 :W3 I:1 A:3 Ld: 4  .. stupid and regenerate, immortal, plus 15 gold upkeep

Bloodthirster :
M:6 WS:7 BS:3 S:6 T:5 :W4 I:4 A:3 Ld 9 .. bloodlust, armored, instability, plus upkeep ??(30 gold maybe??).

Just looking at the numbers it may not seem like your 'Thirster is crazy next to a Troll, but that changes once you consider the dice involved.

WS3 vs. WS7: The Bloodthirster will hit pretty much anything on a 3+, while a Troll will only hit Youngbloods and the like on a 3+. Anything that is WS4 or better hits the Troll on a 3+, while hitting the 'Thirster on a 4+. WS2 or 3 needs a 5+ to hit the 'Thirster! This bump is HUGE, pretty much an across the board +1 to hit and -1 to be hit.

S5 vs S6: 'Thirster will wound T4 on a 2+, which covers a huge gamut of characters: starting Orcs or Beastmen, Ogres, Trolls, and any human or Skaven that rolled a T increase. Oh, and a S3 model with a sword or buckler (or both) can parry a Troll but not a Bloodthirster. This bump is quite a bit bigger than it looks.

T4 vs. T5: Against S3 attacks, the 'Thirster will take half as many wounds as the Troll. That right there cancels out the bonus from the Troll's Regen. Also, the ability to inflict critical hits is very important for keeping multiwound models in check, and you must be S4 or higher to get a crit against T5. This increase is HUGE.

W3 vs. W4: An extra wound is a big deal, especially after we factor in that most starting models and lots of ranged attacks (bows, slings) cannot score criticals against the 'Thirster. This bump is BIG.

I1 vs. I4: Trolls pretty much can't climb or jump down, but a Bloodthirster will succeed 2/3 of the time. This makes shooting from an elevated position less of an effective strategy, because unlike a Troll, the 'Thirster can come up after you. In ongoing combats Trolls almost always strike last, while a 'Thirster will go ahead of most models that aren't Skaven and haven't gotten an I increase. This is a deceptive thing, but actually provides a defensive bonus, because almost nothing will be able to kill the 'Thirster in a single charge. This bump is slightly bigger than it looks.

A3 vs. A3: Nothing to see here, moving on.

Ld4 vs. Ld9: Not super relevant once special rules are taken into account. The Troll's low Ld is a severe handicap for it though, which the 'Thirster doesn't share.

Special rules!
Troll: Regen - This is great, gives it an unmodifiable 4+ save
'Thirster: Daemonic Aura and Armored - 4+ save that can be modified by S and magic, still pretty darn good. Especially in the early game this should always be at least a 5+, as there aren't a lot of S5 attacks running around.

'Thirster: Bloodlust - The chance is small, but an extra +3 attacks that hit on 3's, wound on 2's is crazy good! Needing to charge is hardly a downside given how powerful this model is.

'Thirster: Immune to Psychology - All Alone tests can be a good check to keep giant scary models from rampaging off on their own. No such luck for your poor opponent here.
Troll: Stupidity - While the 'Thirster gets an upside in the psych dept, the Troll takes a MAJOR hit. Ld 4 means it must be next to the leader to have any hope of participating in the battle, and even then, orcs don't have the greatest Ld. It should expect to fail this test at least once each game. 

'Thirster: Immune to Poison - Weeping Blade Skaven are now sad, everyone else looses an uncommon but useful way to deal with the high T value.

'Thirster: Daemon - Vulnerable to Blessed Water. Finally a weakness! This stuff is nasty powerful, but one-shot per hero, and anyone other than Sisters or Witch Hunters is going to spend a LOT of gold and all their rare items rolls stocking up on it (average of 119 gold and 9 rare item rolls to get 6 vials). A house rule could also make Daemons vulnerable to Sigmarite Warhammers, but by RAW, those only have extra effect against Possessed and Undead.

'Thirster: Axe and Whip - armor piercing makes this monster ignore all armor, even a dwarf with Gromril and a shield. Compare that to the Troll, who still gives that dwarf a respectable 5+ save. The option to light someone on fire with a whip is nice I guess? Also, rules are unclear here: is it 
- 3 attacks, of which 2 are axe, 1 is whip
- 3 attacks, of which 2-3 are axe, 0-1 is whip
- 3 attacks, all with axe, +1 for the off-hand whip, for a total of 4?

Troll: Regen and upkeep - Functional immortality is nice on such a big investment. Upkeep is annoying but manageable
'Thirster: Instability and upkeep - While this does mean that you stand to lose a big chunk of cash if anyone can take this sucker down, let's face it, is that going to happen often?

A highish price, upkeep cost, and increased chance of losing the investment won't, in the end, make up for the fact that until warband ratings hit at least 3-400, a Greater Daemon as you've statted it could probably win without any help from the rest of the band. Such a powerful creature just doesn't make sense in a skirmish game (either thematically or balance-wise).

However, this seems like something you're set on. I expect that if you were to keep the stats you've assigned, I'd want to see a cost of something like 30 shards of wyrdstone. It should NEVER be priced in such a way as to make it available to a starting warband, and should be prohibitively expensive so that it can't be taken until people have the tools available to deal with it (x-bow spam hoping for crits and Holy Water are really the only things I can think of other than situations where the Daemon warband was horribly outplayed by a better opponent who also had nasty combat characters). Upkeep cost of 2-3 shards seems reasonable, with the option to sacrifice a captive instead of paying in wyrdstone.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 0:37

Goglutin wrote:
They are the most powerful creature after the gods themselves after all !!!

And thats why it doesn't fit - imo. At least a lousy starting warband's summoner shouldn't be able to summon a greater deamon. And as others have stated before some creatures are just too powerful to be represented in mordheim.

However, i also like the idea of deamons so my spontaneous idea when reading this thread was: what if you use a modified chaos god rewards table for the summoner? A roll of 12 could then result in transforming/mutating the summoner himself into a greater deamon...

So this way you loose your leader, and you have to be very lucky (favored by the god of dice rolls). Everything still has to be worked out in detail of course, but maybe this could balance the whole issue a bit...

Greetings
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 6:51

Hi and thx for the comments.

I thought about a way to solve the problem with greater daemons.

Treat them as dramatis personae or hired swords ! Requiring wyrdstones sacrifice (30 seems fair) is something I'll update as soon as possible as well as giving them a 2-3 wyrdstones upkeep. This way you could lose it to a bad exploration roll because you have not enough wyrdstone to pay his upkeep. This would also permit to adjust their warband rating value and add some conditions to hire them.

I also think about adding a special skill for the summoner to take before being able to take them.
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 8:34

I think that's a better route.... and great support for that is the BTB expansion has a daemon prince Dramatis Personale
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Wed 2 Apr 2014 - 15:01

The new version is out for those interested

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxEHFxKBRf5VVkc2dXQ4YTY5VnM/edit?usp=sharing
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PostSubject: Re: Yet another daemonic warband...   Today at 18:02

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