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 How to deal with arguing player?

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Goglutin
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PostSubject: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 6:43

Well, we play with a guy that is always arguing on every situation and try to put it on his own advantage. Example: One character is at cover from a shooter but there is some foliage that covers him a bit too... of course he tells that he should not be shot! Another example is arguing about charge range. Crying every turn for one or two failed charge... (he play dwarves so failed charges from the enemy is a very good tactical advantage for him). Sometimes he even argue about rules he never read !!! Holy shit, I read the Mordheim rule book about 4 times and I have a good photographic memory and when someone tries to invents rules this makes me out of me.

When that kind of situation happens scarcely its all right but with him its many times per game and every game... its beginning to play on my nerves and I'm about to explode.

I played with many players and I've never felt so angry after someone.

With other players, the thing go round... we are very easy about rules and play for fun, usually if there is an argument we roll a dice with 50/50 chances and this solve the problem but this doesn't seem to stop him arguing. When the dice do not take his side he continues pass aggressive commentaries about the decision and this can even go when the game is over.

How should I deal with that? I'm tired of arguing about the same things over and over. I hate competitive players as they ruin the fun of everyone and create tensions that also ruins atmosphere.

He's a good guy when not playing by the way that's why I do not want to ban him from playing with us.
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Ork
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 7:46

Well, the best advice is to just tell him that his behaviour is making the games unbearable.

As for arguments about charge distance or cover, it's a good idea to bring in a third person who doesn't have a stake in the actual game to be the deciding factor.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 10:00

Yep, Ork is right. Some good honest communication is in order here. Tell him how his behavior is making you feel about playing with him, and talk it out. If he isn't willing to see your side of things then you might consider not playing against him yourself. Don't have to go so far as to ban him from the whole playgroup, but it is obvious that you don't enjoy playing against him, so don't do it.

Always keep a rulebook on hand to look up issues where you disagree on what a rule says (soooo much easier than arguing: I do this all the time with Warhammer, even if I'm 99% sure I'm right, as soon as there is disagreement I reach for the rulebook as it's quicker, less painful, and more tactful in the end).

A third player as an arbiter for things like close charges or cover is also never a bad idea for an opponent who doesn't subscribe to the "It's really too close to tell, let's roll the 50-50 Hand of Fate die" philosophy.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 11:23

It could be that your friend simply has a different definition to what the rest of you consider 'fun'.

My group is quite competitive also (we all are, and enjoy it) and cover calls sometimes could create a certain amount of discussion (less so in Mordheim than Necromunda, thank goodness Smile). Our solution was for everyone to get a laser-pointer. If you can illuminate the target from the firer then you unambiguously have line-of-sight. if you can illuminate *all* of the target then the target unambiguously has no cover. If you can simultaneously illuminate an obstruction *and* the target then the target unambiguously has cover.

As for charge ranges, make certain you are measuring them properly. I bring my 'A' game to the table and I get the most fun when my opponents do also and one thing that really annoys me is when slip-shod 'Spirit of the game' players fudge the measuring to make things more 'fun'. As far as I am concerned if you are 1/16th of an inch short then a failed charge is a failed charge and I shouldn't have to bitch and moan at you to follow the gorram rules. That being said, it goes both ways and if *I* am 1/16th of an inch short then a failed charge is a failed charge and whining about it isn't going to change reality or make things more fun for anyone. I am also *not* going to accept any offer to fudge it because I know I will then be expected to fudge things against me also.

I don't play dwarfs myself, but I am pretty sure that if I was, I would get irritated at clumsy 'SOTG' players taking a 'close enough' attitude to measuring chargers, nudging their models forward by 'mistake', nudging mine back 'accidentally' with the tape measure and then "oh, sorry, I'll put that back for you" and now I am mysteriously just in range and GRAAAAAAAAAH! !@&%#@&!#% SPIRIT-OF-THE-GAME PLAYERS! I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!11111 IF YOU JUST WANTED TO PLAY TOY SOLDIERS WHY ARE WE EVEN BOTHERING WITH THE RULERS AND DICE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111 /rant.

OK, sorry about that. I am better now. Promise.

Anyway, I guess the point is that it is possible that you and your group are irritating *him* as much as he is irritating *you* so I am going to add a big +1 to the whole communication thing.

Of course, this all assumes he is simply an A-gamer and not a WAAC player. If the latter, then by all means, ban him from your group or, at the very least, just don't play him yourself. Some WAAC players will reform if you pull them up on it, but if they can't or won't change there is not a lot you can do about it, but it is not like you are legally obligated to play against them either.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 12:02

Well, i second what ork said, but to be hounest, if someone would ruin my beloved hobby by arguing every time he´s not in poleposition i would kick him out ! Goodbye and ruin somebody elses freetime! cheers 

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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 13:06

I second master 0 wise words. Talk it out and try to reach an understanding of what you both want from the game, if he's a nice guy I'm sure the problem can be solved.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 14:18

I feel you. In my gaming group we have a round at being 'that guy', so we can have some discussions now and then, but usually one of us bends, so we can enjoy the game and find out later whether it was right or wrong. If it was wrong, we try to compensate the player who was wronged after the game. Sometimes, like in the 'cover situations' you mention, it can be solved quickly - we usually get a third party to make the decision, like it was proposed by Ork. But most importantly - make sure you all know the rules and agree on them.
This means, if there's an argument and you come to a conclusion, make sure to write it down. For instance 'if a model can be seen, it can be shot at, unless it is hiding'. Make him sign that paper (with blood from his Leader). Or well, just make sure he agrees. Then whenever he tries to argue, find that paper and read what you agreed on. That's how we solve most issues, that cannot be found in the rulebook. Or yeah, bring up that rulebook if it's in there, but make sure all agree on the interpretation - discuss this when you are NOT playing. Take the time, it will save you a lot in the end. Write down the issues and the solution at the end of the game, so you don't forget, and discuss when the post battle is over, or some other appropriate time.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 15:32

Lord 0 wrote:
GRAAAAAAAAAH! !@&%#@&!#% SPIRIT-OF-THE-GAME PLAYERS! I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!11111 IF YOU JUST WANTED TO PLAY TOY SOLDIERS WHY ARE WE EVEN BOTHERING WITH THE RULERS AND DICE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111
Amen brother! Sir, yes sir! 
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Goglutin
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 17:30

Well... you know, sometimes you have to get measure on charge range over obstacle, trees, other miniatures, etc....

That's when thing becomes complex. Depending on your ''relative'' point of view its pretty different. This guy is 6''2'' and I'm 5'3'' my angle do not show the same thing !! DICES are a good way to split up arguments.

You know, there is no money in play so losing should not be THAT BAD! I mean.. its just a F***ng game... I'm the most experienced player of our group and I'm often the biggest loser because I gives chances to my opponents... I expect the same ''gentleman'' attitude when its my turn to win !



BTW.. I"m going to buy a laser pointer as soon as possible.. that's a tool that will solve many arguments I guess...
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Mon 3 Mar 2014 - 21:47

For measuring awkward places we have a few extra things to make it a bit easier. We all have gaming tape measures*, of course, and that works well enough for at least 90% of the time. We also have a dress-making tape and a wee plastic 12" ruler and 8" ruler. The guy that really likes dwarfs has a 6" ruler. The table at my house is 6'*8' so there is a 2' section for putting all the dice, books, casualties, laser pointers, rulers, etc. so it is all close and handy.

Between all those measuring devices there is very very rare that we can't get a good fix on just how far away something is.

I must admit, I have a personal aversion to using the roll method because, in my experience, it is of most benefit to the WAAC players. All they have to do is argue, even on something they know is wrong, and they have a 50/50 chance of getting the ruling in their favour. For that reason I prefer to look everything up in the rules (yay for pdfs with word search Smile) or get a proper measurement/ LOS reading, what-have-you in the first place. When all else fails, there is the good old cage-match for resolving friendly differences Razz.


*By this I really just mean the tapes that are the thinner width rather than the more hefty carpentry ones.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 1:56

Lord 0 wrote:
they have a 50/50 chance of getting the ruling in their favour

Wut? Thought you had mad 70/30 roll skills! I practice my rolls every day, so I can win arguments!!!!111

... That being said, I'm not a fan of rolling for arguments either. There are rules for everything, and if there's not, you can house rule it and write it down for reference in future situations.

We haven't gone to the whole 'let me check with my advanced laser pen' yet, but we might get there some day. And I think we have a failed charge like once or twice in a day of playing. We might be insanely good at guessing, or incredibly bad at measuring - works fine either way!
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 5:30

I think I'll make 6'', 8'', 10'' and 12'' rulers with some kind of flexible material (pipe cleaner maybe??). (measuring a charge that goes through a corner is not simple with hard rulers).

This should solve most arguments... If the ruler touch both bases its a charge .. if not then its a failed one.

I'll still buy that laser pointer as soon as possible...

I also think that we will drop the dice method...permanently. Your arguments against it are pretty accurate so...



PS : I also had an idea about foliage obscuring the sight of a shooter. Adding an extra -1 when there is both foliage AND cover should do the trick and satisfy anyone.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 20:56

I would +1 your idea about foliage.

In my group (partly to help avoid arguments about cover) is we have defined cover as something that obscures you that you are in base contact with. If you are not in contact with it, it is not cover. If it does not obscure you, it is not cover. However, if you are obscured, but *not* in contact with it, you *can* claim 'Intervening Obstacle', which is also a -1. Other models cannot be claimed as cover, but they *can* be claimed as intervening obstacles.

To reduce the likelyhood of stupidly hard shots (but increase the awesomeness when they happened) we made cover and intervening obstacle stack. Obviously you can't claim both from the one object though, because you can't be both in contact with something and *not* in contact with something.

For the flexible ruler, we find the dress-makers tape is fine for that. It is flexible, accurately measured, doesn't shrink, fatigue, kink, etc. and is quite durable. You need to get a proper one though - not just the cheapest one you can. Doesn't need to be deluxe either, but a good mid-range one should do the trick.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Sat 15 Mar 2014 - 2:47

Lord 0 wrote:
I don't play dwarfs myself, but I am pretty sure that if I was, I would get irritated at clumsy 'SOTG' players taking a 'close enough' attitude to measuring chargers, nudging their models forward by 'mistake', nudging mine back 'accidentally' with the tape measure and then "oh, sorry, I'll put that back for you" and now I am mysteriously just in range and GRAAAAAAAAAH! !@&%#@&!#% SPIRIT-OF-THE-GAME PLAYERS! I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!11111 IF YOU JUST WANTED TO PLAY TOY SOLDIERS WHY ARE WE EVEN BOTHERING WITH THE RULERS AND DICE AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111 /rant.

I loled so hard i spewed coffie all over my smartphone when reading this post. I feel the exact same way, Lord O!

Really great post - it hits a well known issue that usually is an issue that yoll have to live with without being a duche - but still something that has to be agreed apon beforehand to avoid unnecessary ragequit or other unpleasanties.
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PostSubject: Re: How to deal with arguing player?   Today at 0:59

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