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Aipha
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PostSubject: The Handgun   Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 7:23

Is it really that bad?
First of all - somehow, yes, of course it is. It's a secondary weapon both for Henchmen and Heroes. Mercenary Marksmen and Dwarf Thunderers are among those who can actually use it, and none would do so without first getting another weapon. Thunderers would pick a Crossbow and Marksmen probably a Long Bow, but as a secondary weapon useable every other turn, if no movement is done? Not too bad actually and certainly better than both of the other weapons (except of course if you're out of range, but why would you be that?!).
For Heroes it's about the same situation - the Handgun is secondary, usually used along with a Crossbow. You use it when you Move and Fire and that's it, else you use that Crossbow. But still, when forced to move, which you sometimes will be, the Handgun os simply better. I've made som calculations as usual and put them up here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8gzhlc0rnqex37j/CR%20%26%20HA.xlsx

Notice that I've also put up calculations of the Handgun performance if you add +1 to its Injury Roll, which I know is the solution of many. All calculations are of the chance to take the enemy OOA.

My own conclusion: If you're rich, the Handgun is excellent as an additional ranged weapon, but otherwise, the +1 to Injury makes it quite attractive even for Henchmen, which is (afaik) the main issue.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 12:50

Which rules for the handgun are you using?
the rules I have clearly state move OR fire. If you could move with them they'd outweigh the crossbow easily. Higher armor penetration helps a lot, the strength is fine, but the Prepare Shot rule combined with Move or Fire doesn't increase it's use. Especially on boards with a lot of scenery, you can hardly fire it succesfully.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Wed 19 Feb 2014 - 13:48

I'm using the ones where Nimble is usable with a Handgun, which I suppose everyone is? Razz
That is excactly why you need another weapon, and the Handgun isn't too good by itself (or isn't as good as a Crossbow at least, when the Hero has the Quick Shot skill).

I was at work and writing from my phone, so my post might not be that clear - let me sum it up:

Heroes:

Crossbow + Handgun
First of all, for the optimal setting you need two or three skills: Quick Shot, Nimble and perhaps Hunter, though it's not completely neccesary.
Whenever you don't move: Fire with the Crossbow.
When you move: Fire with the Handgun (since you won't be able to Quick Shot with the Crossbow)

Henchmen:

Marksman
Long Bow + Handgun
Whenever you don't move: Fire with the Handgun (unless of course you did in the previous round).
When you move: Fire with the Long Bow.

Thunderer
Crossbow + Handgun
Switch between the two, starting with the Handgun.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Fri 21 Feb 2014 - 2:38

What rules are you using for crossbows and handguns?  I've looked through your calculations and can't make sense of them.  

My book has the following profiles:

XBow - Range: 30", S4, Move or Fire

Handgun - Range: 24", S4, Move or Fire, Prepare Shot, Armor Piercing

The handgun has exactly two advantages over the crossbow.  First, it has 2 points of armor penetration rather than 1.  Second, superior black powder can kick the shot up to S5.  While superior black powder is theoretically cheap enough for a high-level warband to buy before every game, it doesn't seem to be included in your math.  

While I'm a relatively new Mordheim player in the scheme of this board, I assure you that the handgun does not have (and cannot be given) a +1 to injury rolls. Regardless, your optimal setup requires taking 2-3 skill advances for the sole purpose of giving handguns better utility. A much more universally effective sidearm is the Blunderbuss, which only requires "Weapons Expert".


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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Fri 21 Feb 2014 - 8:40

Major Sharpe wrote:
What rules are you using for crossbows and handguns?  I've looked through your calculations and can't make sense of them.

My book has the following profiles:

XBow - Range: 30", S4, Move or Fire

Handgun - Range: 24", S4, Move or Fire, Prepare Shot, Armor Piercing

Excactly those - in my calculations it is just assumed, that the Hero has the relevant skills in order to make a decent comparison of the weapons used, with the skills necessary.

Major Sharpe wrote:
The handgun has exactly two advantages over the crossbow. First, it has 2 points of armor penetration rather than 1.  Second, superior black powder can kick the shot up to S5.  While superior black powder is theoretically cheap enough for a high-level warband to buy before every game, it doesn't seem to be included in your math.

It is not, since you can do the same with a Crossbow and Dark Venom. I made the case from a 'standard' Hero vs. a 'standard' warrior. Neither Superior Blackpowder nor Dark Venom would change anything though, since the Handgun is still better when having moved (with Nimble ofc.) than the Crossbow (comparing a Handgun with SB and a Crossbow with DV).

Major Sharpe wrote:
While I'm a relatively new Mordheim player in the scheme of this board, I assure you that the handgun does not have (and cannot be given) a +1 to injury rolls.

I assure you, no matter how much you suggest than I haven't read the rulebook, that I am perfectly aware of how both the Handgun and Crossbow works Wink The +1 to Injury rolls came from a suggestion on this forum, which I've indicated in this phrase in my first post:

Aipha wrote:
Notice that I've also put up calculations of the Handgun performance if you add +1 to its Injury Roll, which I know is the solution of many. All calculations are of the chance to take the enemy OOA.

I'm sorry if that was not clear enough. It was simply included to show how such a house rule would tip the balance a bit, making the Handgun stronger vs. 2+ AS models and equal vs. 3+ AS models.

Major Sharpe wrote:
Regardless, your optimal setup requires taking 2-3 skill advances for the sole purpose of giving handguns better utility.  A much more universally effective sidearm is the Blunderbuss, which only requires "Weapons Expert".

My argument is that the Handgun is a useable sidearm; not the most effective. It also depends on playstyle, where a situation where the Handgun is better, could be if the enemy is spreading out succesfully and you can't get to fire your Blunderbuss at the right time or where you wish to Move + Leap around your enemy will blasting him down with your gun (which can be done for quite some rounds if you're lucky - something you could not do with a Blunderbuss, which is 1 use pr. battle, and something the Crossbow wouldn't be better at either).
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Sat 22 Feb 2014 - 2:26

In our club we have increased the strength of handgun on a short-range to 5. Now it's much better with this weapon, and people often choose handgun instead popular x-bow Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 12:52

Dwalthrim_Grimsson wrote:
In our club we have increased the strength of handgun on a short-range to 5. Now it's much better with this weapon, and people often choose handgun instead popular x-bow Wink
We boostedthe streng to 5 (without AP)
The Xbow is still better but a mini with a handgun may use the handgun instead of a xbow.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 12:54

We did what?

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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 13:40

Boosted (increased) the strength to 5 (without armour piercing)
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 13:43

Dwalthrim_Grimsson wrote:
In our club we have increased the strength of handgun on a short-range to 5. Now it's much better with this weapon, and people often choose handgun instead popular x-bow Wink
Not mentioning:
- decreasing the cost by 5
- increasing range to 30"
- no move or fire
 Twisted Evil 
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 14:04

catachanfrog wrote:

Not mentioning:
- decreasing the cost by 5
- increasing range to 30"
- no move or fire
 Twisted Evil 

I forgot to mention about that Rolling Eyes 
Btw it works pretty well in the game  Smile 
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 16:14

Ahh, no armour penetration! And boosted, ja, i DO know what that means, thanks grimscull. Very Happy 

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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 1:48

I thought so, just trying to eliminate any possibilities  Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 4:08

Dwalthrim_Grimsson wrote:
catachanfrog wrote:

Not mentioning:
- decreasing the cost by 5
- increasing range to 30"
- no move or fire
 Twisted Evil 

I forgot to mention about that Rolling Eyes 
Btw it works pretty well in the game  Smile 
Too well if you ask me Wink 
It became ultimate range weapon and I'm still not convinced. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 1:47

I've made the calculations for S5, and I can see why you're not convinced. The extra Strength might mean something for henchmen (and makes Nimble useless with a Handgun), but otherwise it's not that big a buff, compared to adding +1 to the Injury roll instead. You do have the possibility of critting T6 warriors though, and that might mean something vs. some opponents (Vampires, Possessed, a Saurus every now and then), but otherwise it's not that much better. It is better though! The calculation link can be found here: Crossbow vs. Handgun

Another suggestion by Lord 0 is 2 Injury rolls for the Handgun, taken from this thread Orc Warband Development

We highjacked the thread a bit, so I thought it would fit better here:

Lord 0 wrote:
Oh, I see what you mean. The reason for the different coloured dice is for re-rolls. We use Rabbit's feet and one of the things you can do with it is reroll an injury roll. Well, originally the RAW was that you could reroll any one *dice* but that made it a bit powerful for rolls that used two dice (rout tests, casting tests, LD tests, etc) so we decided that what it meant was that if you used the re-roll you had to reroll *both* dice, not just the one you wanted.

We do not use the missfire rules, but the handgun still has not completely replaced the crossbow, but now the handgun is actually taken from time-to-time whereas before it was instantly sold for the cash.

There are pros and cons to each so each is taken when it would make the most sense.
For Henchmen:
The crossbow is on more equipment lists, so can be taken at all (not many henchmen can even *take* a handgun).
Crossbow is cheaper.
Crossbow can shoot each turn.
Crossbow has the longer range (and therefore the longer *short* range).
Handgun punches through more armour.
Handgun is more likely to cause a casualty if it hits.

For Heroes:
Crossbow is cheaper.
Crossbow probably doesn't need a skill to take.
Crossbow can shoot 2 separate targets if you stay still.
Handgun punches through more armour.
Handgun is more likely to cause a casualty if it hits.

Basically, before the introduction of the rule there was really only one LR specialist weapon path. You would take the crossbow until you got either the elf bow or the sniper rifle. Now, if your final destination is the sniper rifle, it is viable to take the handgun either first or second to the crossbow, before getting the sniper rifle. Sometimes, a handgun will even be given to a henchmen if there is no pressing need for cash and there is a growing amount of armour on the table, but it is still fairly rare. Late-game, when there is a *lot* of armour on the table, it is not uncommon to see a henchman or two to have a handgun.

Makes sense with you doing it then, due to the re-rolls! Wink however, wow - what a re-roll. Two Injuries, which can both be re-rolled with a single re-roll? Somehow it should only apply for things actually requiring a 2D6 result and not 2 D6 results!

I see why the Henchmen won't use Handgun much more, but I see a stronger ranged possibility in your games. Of course, an Elf Bow with Hunting Arrows is a bit more useful (unless it's vs. T5 warriors without any poison), since you can shoot twice, but it's also much harder to come across than a Handgun.

For me, the whole point is not to make the Handgun stronger than the Crossbow, since I'd find that unbalancing, when you in addition to that, already makes the Long Rifle stronger, since the two follow each other. The 'pick a target' is pretty strong already combined with basically +1 BS on it.

With your rules, I still think the Handgun would be too good, which would make ranged warbands better at the same time. I presume we have the same goal - to make the Handgun a viable choice - I just think a bit less is needed to achieve this. I might be wrong though, but I'll vote for a +1 Injury change in our group and tell them the Handgun has just become much better, which is actually quite true.

For instance, according to the calculations, the Crossbow is only superior in 2/8 cases: Shooting at a target with a 5+ or 4+ Armour save without the shooter having moved. It's on par with the Handgun in 1/8 cases: Shooting at a target with a 3+ Armour save. In the rest of the cases, the Handgun is better: Shooting at a target with a 2+ Armour save and shooting while having moved.

I know, that I can force my Crossbow-loving opponent to move somewhere between 30 - 50% of the game, so a Handgun might actually be better for him with these rules, especially when playing vs. my T5, 2+ AS Lizardmen.

I should note, however, that the calculations are for 1 Wound targets only, so that might tip the scale a bit.

All in all, I still believe that +1 to Injury should suffice, without making the Handgun much stronger, but still making it viable as a choice.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 9:33

Oh, one reroll wouldn't let you roll all four dice in that circumstance. It would only let you roll either the black or the red. and if you rolled a stunned and knocked down you couldn't leave the stunned and just reroll the knocked down, you would have to roll them both and risk getting two knocked down results.

We have been using the injury roll for almost a year now and the handgun has not yet replaced the crossbow. I think because the cheapness, range, and accuracy* of the crossbow in the hands of the henchman and its ability to fire twice in the hands of a hero offset the injury possibilities of the handgun.

Granted, we did have a few warbands go nuts and go *all* handguns for a while, but that faded away after the expense and single-targetness made itself felt. Handgun usage now hovers around 25-30% of crossbow usage, and that is good enough for me. People that really like handguns will tend to have closer to 50% and sometimes, in a fit of madness, someeone will make a themed warband and go closer to 150% or even no crossbows at all, but even then, at least it makes the themed option semi-viable instead of just a joke.

We have one dwarf player who arms his engineer with what he calls a 'brace of handguns' (just two handguns taking up both ranged slots) that he uses until his engineer has Hunter. Then he can give the spare handgun to a Thunderer.

In any case, as a general rule, we tend to make house-rules start overpowered and then tone them back. That way people use them more and we can evaluate. It just so happens that this time we seemed to get right on the money first time. Well, for our group anyway Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 16:54

Lord 0 wrote:
Oh, one reroll wouldn't let you roll all four dice in that circumstance. It would only let you roll either the black or the red. and if you rolled a stunned and knocked down you couldn't leave the stunned and just reroll the knocked down, you would have to roll them both and risk getting two knocked down results.

I got that, don't worry albino 
My point was, that it's - compared to the Crossbow once again - much better. Imagine you roll to hit, wound and succesfully go through the armour save with both Crossbow shots and a different model does the same with a Handgun. The guy with the Handgun gets to re-roll his two Knocked Down results, where the Crossbow dude only gets to re-roll one of his Knocked Down results. Statistically, there's just a bigger chance of getting that sought OOA roll with two re-rolls compared to one!

Lord 0 wrote:
We have been using the injury roll for almost a year now and the handgun has not yet replaced the crossbow. I think because the cheapness, range, and accuracy* of the crossbow in the hands of the henchman and its ability to fire twice in the hands of a hero offset the injury possibilities of the handgun.

Aye, the whole Prepare Shot keeps it in check.

Lord 0 wrote:
Granted, we did have a few warbands go nuts and go *all* handguns for a while, but that faded away after the expense and single-targetness made itself felt. Handgun usage now hovers around 25-30% of crossbow usage, and that is good enough for me. People that really like handguns will tend to have closer to 50% and sometimes, in a fit of madness, someeone will make a themed warband and go closer to 150% or even no crossbows at all, but even then, at least it makes the themed option semi-viable instead of just a joke.

I'd be the 150% guy ^_^

Lord 0 wrote:
We have one dwarf player who arms his engineer with what he calls a 'brace of handguns' (just two handguns taking up both ranged slots) that he uses until his engineer has Hunter. Then he can give the spare handgun to a Thunderer.

I don't know if you house ruled that, but otherwise you can only be armed with two different missile weapons. Won't bother to quote it, since you probably already know this Suspect 

Lord 0 wrote:
In any case, as a general rule, we tend to make house-rules start overpowered and then tone them back. That way people use them more and we can evaluate. It just so happens that this time we seemed to get right on the money first time. Well, for our group anyway Smile.

Yeah - as long as it works out for the group, all is well! afro 
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 19:08

We are going to try removing the Move or Fire rule for the hand gun and hunting rifle for our next campaign. For henchmen this will allow a viable choice compared to the crossbow: the trooper that can advance while shooting vs. one that remains in position. For heroes it provides an alternative advance choice: not needing the nimble skill if going for blackpowder weapons, or not needing hunter if choosing the crossbow/bow.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 19:40

I didn't know that this had turned into a 'fix the handgun' thread. Since it has though then I'll add my two cents. lol!

Don't change the Handgun. Instead, remove the 'Quick Shot' skill from working with Crossbows.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 20:14

RationalLemming wrote:
Don't change the Handgun. Instead, remove the 'Quick Shot' skill from working with Crossbows.

This doesn't help henchmen. I find the that both prepared shot and move or fire really turn the tide against the handgun. The armour penetration bonus doesn't help so much as there is little armour in our games to begin with.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Tue 4 Mar 2014 - 20:44

Thespian wrote:
This doesn't help henchmen. I find the that both prepared shot and move or fire really turn the tide against the handgun. The armour penetration bonus doesn't help so much as there is little armour in our games to begin with.
Two good points.

The entire discussion on improving armour also inadvertantly improves the Handgun (without requiring changes to the Handgun rules themselves).

I'm not too worried about making it more appealing for henchmen though. To me a Handgun sounds like a more elite weapon for the elite warriors within my warband (my heroes). I can understand that this might be different for you and your group though.

I am the only one who usually plays warbands that can use Handguns in my gaming group (Dwarf Treasure Hunters, Mercenaries, Gunnery School of Nuln) and I'm comfortable not to change them too much and I haven't had much of a push for anyone else to change the rules.


Another rule that we did trial in my group for a while was to increase the Strength of Handguns (and Hunting Rifles) to Strength 5 (at half range) and remove Prepare Shot (and we also added Accuracy to the Hunting Rifle). In the end we dropped it not because it made Handguns too powerful but because it felt unnecessary. It may just have been that we went a bit overboard and it sounds like removing 'Move or Fire' OR adding +1 to injury roll OR rolling twice for injury are simpler solutions that avoid going too far.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Wed 5 Mar 2014 - 19:15

RL wrote:
Don't change the Handgun. Instead, remove the 'Quick Shot' skill from working with Crossbows.

+1

We play a lot of warbands that don't have access to crossbows (Arabyan Nomads/Tomb Raiders/Arabyan Smugglers) but do have handguns on their lists, plus we play a lot of pirate theme campaigns. We end up with a bunch of warriors with bow/handgun as their equipment. Or occasionally just handguns.

The king of our battlefield is also always the Long Rifle.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 3:47

RationalLemming wrote:
I didn't know that this had turned into a 'fix the handgun' thread. Since it has though then I'll add my two cents. lol!

Wasn't my plan either. My plan was just to show, that the Handgun is fine as a secondary weapon, but apparantly that's not getting bought! Suspect 

RationalLemming wrote:
Don't change the Handgun. Instead, remove the 'Quick Shot' skill from working with Crossbows.

Can't entirely agree with this. This would weaken shooting quite a lot!

But I think I see where the problem lies, from all the comments. It seems as though most players lack armour in their games. I can certainly see, that without armour, the Handgun is rendered useless.

Comparing it to, for instance a Long Bow with or without Hunting Arrows, this is the result:

Without Hunting Arrows, a Handgun is better than a Long Bow if the opponent has an Armour Save of 5+ or better.
With Hunting Arrows, the Handgun is better vs. an opponent with a 2+ Save and just as good vs. an opponent with a 3+ save. Both rare cases unless you play against a lot of Dwarves/Lizardmen/Druchii.

Adding +1 to the Injury roll, would make the Handgun better vs. 5+ AS opponent again (no shit, Sherlock).

I have yet to take a Toughness value 5 or 3 into account, but the average should even out at 4 anyway, so these results should be representive. The Handgun (and Crossbow) does get a bigger advantage vs. T5 opponents though.

The Handgun, as it is now, is still better than a Crossbow, when your Hero has moved, unless the opponent has an Armour Save of 6+ or none, in which case they of course are even.

In our campaign we play with the reduced armour cost, resulting in henchmen with armour, which is probably why we still think the Handgun can have its moments.

It's a good point though, that the Handgun is an elite weapon for Heroes (or Thuuuunderers!)

So there are different solutions depending on a couple of things:
- How are your armour rules? If they're half price, there might not be a need to change anything, or perhaps adjust with +1 to Injury or so. If they're normal price, you might want to go with Two Injury rolls for each wound.
- Do you want henchmen to use Handguns? If so, remove Prepared Shot or Move or Fire (I'd suggest Move or Fire, as otherwise it's just a little bit better Crossbow)

In the end it's a big puzzle, which each group should solve on their own, but the conclusion must be, that something must be done about the Handgun - directly with rule changes to the Handgun or indirectly with rule changes to armour.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Thu 6 Mar 2014 - 20:22

Aipha wrote:
Can't entirely agree with this. This would weaken shooting quite a lot!

Oh foo, you're probably going to do some calculations again, aren't you.  Suspect 

Nonetheless, we had a great time telling crossbow stories tonight after the first round of games.
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PostSubject: Re: The Handgun   Today at 9:08

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